Stormbringer

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No one power should be able to control the battle field for one side or the other.

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i assure you, kid, if a stormer showed up in SC and started prancing around with nothing but his hurricane on he'd be ganked in seconds.

it takes more than hurricane to win a battle.

a lot more.

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--to those of us that have it, hurricane is our primary defense against the ridiculous amount of damage being kicked out by other ATs. without it, we are truly sitting ducks.


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Which is why I'm for Storm's other powers being improved to help give you other lines of defense, and against more than melee damage. I don't want Stormers to be useless, sitting ducks. I want them to be viable contestants on the field. That's not going to come from one really good power and a lots of so-so ones though.

Stormers also aren't the only characters who have this problem, and I hope a solution can be come up for the others as well. Defenders and Dominators in particular really get the shaft in many ways, and that's not conducive to fun play.

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hopefully castle et al can come up with a system that allows the hurricane to protect the user in pvp and prevents any abuse in base raids. i just don't think the current fix is it.

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I'd be happy with anything that didn't demand certain character builds had to go to pretty extreme lengths simply to meaningfully affect them. I'd be just as happy with some sort of repel supression for instance, to quote something I'd seen in the thread previous.

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in all fairness, it's reasonable to expect a few inequities in the pvp game. it's not perfect, that's a given. however, it is competitive and (to some extent) there is room for diversity.

one element that accounts for the competitive nature of high-end pvp is a toon's build. 9 times out of 10, in a high-end pvp match, you're dealing exclusively with pvp builds.

to expect a toon specifically tailored for the pvp game to be well within the reach of any and all toons made for pve is not realistic.

perhaps where you and i differ in our view is in our notions of what are reasonable sacrifices for pvp performance. i think, given the current state of affairs, rebuilding a toon is completely reasonable.

and, yes, i pay the price in pve effectiveness.

i'm ok with that sacrifice because i enjoy pvp a good deal more.

because of this, i built my toon from scratch (via a respec) FOR pvp. i made certain i had the core powers to survive in zones like Siren's Call. and later in Warburg. i chose powers based on their efficiency in pvp and pvp alone. i slotted those powers for what i took to be maximum effectiveness. i also practiced and spent a good deal of time learning the game. i saw powers in every AT that could nullify hurricane.

now it's not the case that every build will have access to those powers at level 28 (or whatever the level cap in Siren's is). it's not the case that ever build will be able to defeat a well-made, intelligent storm defender.

it's also not the case that a well-made, well-played storm defender is ever going to beat a stone tank. or a spines/regen. it's just not gonna happen.

it's been said time and again that pvp is not being balanced for 1v1 play. to do so would likely undermine the diversity that distinguishes it from such great pvp games as...oh, i dunno, atari combat. i don't think it's reasonable to expect this kind of 1v1 balance from the devs at this phase of the game.

but maybe you're not suggesting anything of the sort. maybe you've tried diversifying your team or varying your power selections and/or slotting. maybe you've tried temp powers and yellows. i dunno. perhaps, if they have the time and are so inclinced, the devs could do some meaningful research into the relative uberosity of storm summoners in the arena vs. stalkers or scrappers or blasters. maybe they would find they're overpowered. but i really don't think so.

rather than a nerf to hurricane, i'd like to see certain underperforming sets buffed to help keep pvp competitive at the early levels.

I don't feel ANY build should be able to shut down any other reasonable PvP build - ever. You feel otherwise, that's your choice. It's hardly like I'm uniquely and totally against Hurricane here; I'm just as against the ridiculous amounts of damage put out in PvP, capable of dropping people in split seconds, because it literally does shut down other types of builds to a large extent. How ridiculous and immature of me to want a reasonably balanced game.

--to those of us that have it, hurricane is our primary defense against the ridiculous amount of damage being kicked out by other ATs. without it, we are truly sitting ducks. hopefully castle et al can come up with a system that allows the hurricane to protect the user in pvp and prevents any abuse in base raids. i just don't think the current fix is it.

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Why do people keep acting like the Stormers are NPCs with no awareness or ability to use tactics of their own? They're not helpless, they're presumably intelligent players reacting to what's around them.

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Why do people keep acting like they have to stay huddled and all get hit by hurricane at the same time? Why do people feel that just because they rolled an EM stalker, that they should have the right to kill anything with their easy button? So 1 build managed to shut yours down, bring a friend who's build shuts theirs down. there is a good selection of corrupters, dominators, masterminds, hell, even stalker and brute builds that can give a stormer a bad day.

pretty soon with all these nerfs to make debuffs/repels ineffective, all we are going to be seeing soon is nothing but buff and damage builds. why make anything else other than emp and ice/nrg blasters. It's been going in that direction for quite some time, and all the changes the devs are making, it's only encouraging that even further.

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i have seen the future of pvp in coh...

it looks like this:

pvp

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Since Hurricane is so easily countered by any AT that can fight at range, and the nerf calls didn't appear to be coming from heroes who found themselves helpless against Hurricane in Warburg, I have to assume that most of the nerf calls came from Stalkers and Brutes. Since the pvp stalker population is so much larger than the pvp brute population, I'll draw the conclusion that the most complaints about hurricane came from stalkers, and more specifically those without ranged attacks.

Unfortunately, with Energy Melee being widely known as one of the most damaging primaries for an AT that has the highest kill/death ratio (by a ridiculous margin), the above group amounts to a significantly large population of complaining people.

And since EM stalkers can kill just about anything in under 10 seconds, it's very frustrating for them not to be able kill a hurricane user on their first pass.

Maybe I misunderstood a previous post from the devs, or they've just decided to go in a different direction than I was expecting. They said that stalkers kill/death ratio was significantly higher than any other AT in the pvp zones (or something to that effect), so I kinda figured they would be making moves to lower that kill/death ratio. Instead they significantly nerf a power that's primary use in pvp zones is stalker protection. A nerf that will lead to fewer stormers in pvp zones using the now reduced effectiveness Hurricane power, and another increase for the stalker kill/death ratio .

Is it not completely obvious why some stalkers are so happy about this change or felt it was "needed"?



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wurd.

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My only problem with all this, Castle, is sort of a general concern with the state of PvP now and in the future.

CoX PvP has seemed to me-- and it seemed to me the devs were implying it to be true in the past-- that CoX PvP is balanced around TEAM PvP, not Solo work. This seems to me to be just the latest in a line of changes that slowly chip away at that to make the game more fun for people that want to solo-pwn every one and everything.

Maybe it's just me, but I LIKED the fact that intially, there were ATs/powersets that could chew up another AT for breakfast, but stand no chance against another one. Stalkers, one-shotting, Hurricane-pinning... NONE of these are major problems for a decently-outfitted team working together. If a Caner pins you, You get a Corr or Blaster to blast the heck out of them, problem solved. If the caner's team provides better support than yours does... well, clearly the more organized, better PvP players have won. If you're solo... well, better rethink your strategy. Heck, Hurricane... there's lots of ways to deal with it, if you bother to team. Corrupters, masterminds, Dommies all have range, Dommies can just hold the Stormie and shut off the cane so you can beat the tar out of them, and /EA brutes, at least, and maybe /EA Stalkers can just wade right through the Repel to beat the heck out of them. ASes can be dealt with with Tactics and /SR scrappers and so on, massive damage can be turned by taunting tanks that can take it... point is, there's a lot of ways already existing to deal with these problems without taking the teeth out of sets.

Anyway. My concern here is that we're slowly moving away from the team-based nature of PvP balance that actually makes it FUN for a lot of us that don't usually enjoy PvP, and putting it back in the hands of the soloist "I pwn j00 all" mentalities. I worry that changes like this end up just frustrating people that take the sets, and they leave PvP, maybe at best roll a character "better suited" to PvP, and the experience slowly funnels down to a bunch of Stalkers and Brutes and a bunch of scrappers and maybe tanks beating on each other all day. What fun *that* would be...

I'm not saying it's going to happen. But I think it could, with the direction PvP changes have been going.

PS: I am a soloist in PvP who occassionally teams. I find the teams the most fun, but I like the challenge of solo work. I expect to get my butt handed to me on a platter regularly. And yes, i do prefer it that way-- it gives me something to hone skills against. I'd rather find ways around Cane pinning than remove it, as it ultimately makes me a better player, and happier for the PvP experience.

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You have obviously not been on the opposing end of teams with multiple storm trollers/defenders on auto follow, while the person they are following weaves in and out of a large two - three team group of enemies.

I have, and I can say that no team can/could sufficiently stop the stormer with the lingering -range debuff that made any ranged attack drop to no accuracy. Sure he might die, but not often enough to turn the tides in favor of the opposers. You can't kill a moving stormer without range, and can't attack with range when the stormer constantly debuffs you.

This was a major issue for my SG in SC on virtue, and is one of th main reasons I have not set foot in one of our regular PvP zone events (which took place 3-4 times a week earlier this year, before we started getting the storm sweep "strategy" pulled on us) for over 2 months.

PvP is very enjoyable with teamwork, but having a stormer on AF, and significantly abusing the debuff and status affects makes any teamwork on the opposing end a chore and extremely unnatractive.

/em salute to the devs for finally fixing this, I just hope it's as great as it sounds.

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problem is this isn't what they were trying to fix.

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/em wonders when the devs are gonna realize that Force Bubble has the same "problem" that convinced em to zap Hurricane.

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The worst parts about getting debuffed by hurricane was the nasty to-hit debuff and its -range. The -tohit was easily countered at the higher levels(FA, AIM, BU, etc). The -range was the only form of mitigation against ranged toons for the Storm summoning set. It made only since that storm should be able to keep melee out when they are so vulnerable to everything else.

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Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids. I'm aware other powers have the same problem. I'll address those individually, though -- the same type of change made to Hurricane can be made, but for the most part, those powers have fewer aspects to them that Hurricane does. That makes getting them right considerably harder.

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thanks again for the constant vigilance, castle. it's appreciated.

thing is, the current fix goes too far toward correcting the original issue. it undoes a subtantial portion of the storm's defense, opening the door to melee attacks that were previously very difficult to launch.

hurricane users are now VERY SUSCEPTIBLE to melee attacks from all ATs.

from melee ats, storm only has the trace remains of repel and the to-hit debuff to protect them. the hurricane does not debuff the range of melee toons' attacks (grrr...) and the knockback is suppressed or resisted to the point of being almost useless. furthermore, overcoming the to-hit debuff has never been an issue for a well-built opponant.

for non-melee toons the only difference is a potent range debuff. this, combined with the repel used to make it very difficult for non-melee toons (with melee powers) to land melee attacks. sadly, this is no longer the case. ice/em for teh win anyone?

my point in all this is that the fix went too far.

i know you tried to get a timer to prevent toons from being trapped in base raids and said you had some problems with that. in all honesty, making something like that work is the only thing that seems fair. yeah, there'll be debate about "how long" the timer should be set, but it's a step in the right direction.

thanks again for your time, castle.

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remember guys...

storms have no self heal
storms have no mez protection
storms have no ranged defense
storms NOW HAVE extremely limited melee defense

they do not need this nerf.

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oh cry me a river. tell that to my bubbler. oh btw at least your storm has offensive capabilities. be thankful.

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bubblers don't have anything like ranged toggle droppers and perma DF to take opponents out of the fight indefinitely? Not to mention they get some decent mez protection. don't even start with me on bubblers not having anything

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yeah, bubblers don't get anything like PFF either.

so they don't have an oh $#!+ power like storms do.

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remember guys...

storms have no self heal
storms have no mez protection
storms have no ranged defense
storms NOW HAVE extremely limited melee defense

they do not need this nerf.

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oh cry me a river. tell that to my bubbler. oh btw at least your storm has offensive capabilities. be thankful.

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how 'bout i cry you a river instead?

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I hope Castle takes this into account and boosts the effectiveness of Hurricane to offset the nerf of to hit debuff enhancements...If Storms can't get in the thick of things, we are useless.

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The reduction in Tohit Debuff enhancements was not supposed to happen until I7 when the new formula for determining probability to hit is released. The old enhancement schedule made tohit debuffs ungodly with the new formula so they had to be toned down. The tohit debuff enhancers accidentally got changed too early.

In other words, the debuff effectiveness gets a buff in I7.

A substantial buff based on the numbers _Castle_ released earlier.

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unfortunately, i think (even with the i7 buff), hurricane still comes out slightly below where it used to be with the to-hit debuff against even-level opponants.

i didn't do the math, but someone did and posted it on the boards.

i payed special attention to that 'cuz of the level 50 vs. level 50 pvp game.

the net is a a slight decrease in the effectiveness of the debuff vs. even-conned opponants. it's slightly better when fighting an opponant of a higher level than yourself.

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or other powers which are worse than getting pinned to a wall, how about powers like sonic cage and detention field that prevent a player from playing indefinitely as long as the cager wants to follow them around


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If Hurricane fell victim to the nerf bat, what makes you think SC and DF are safe? Or even FB and TK?

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because you dont have 50 or so noobs saying z0mg nerf FB! I just bought this game yesterday and know nothing about this powerset but it beat me so nerf it!!!!

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i PMed cuppa about this a few days ago.

although my wording of the problem was a bit different, the idea was the same.

the idea is that less experience players seem to be more inclined to complain about hurricane because 1) it's effective, 2) it's a debuff that they feel affect them (as opposed to a buff to an opponant which they can't directly feel) and 3) it's a showy power that calls attention to itself (like a bullseye, some would argue). because of these factors, i think hurricane may have gotten more attention than it deserved.

i think it'd do the game well if the devs were made aware of this phenomenon.

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/em wonders when the devs are gonna realize that Force Bubble has the same "problem" that convinced em to zap Hurricane.

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I honestly felt the nerf to hurricane wasn't necessary. The worst parts about getting debuffed by hurricane was the nasty to-hit debuff and its -range. The -tohit was easily countered at the higher levels(FA, AIM, BU, etc). The -range was the only form of mitigation against ranged toons for the Storm summoning set. It made only since that storm should be able to keep melee out when they are so vulnerable to everything else.

I feel that the change to the repel ticker on hurricane wasnt necessary considering the small radius hurricane has. With the patch melee can easily run in and get their swings in before the repel kicks in. From what I've tested the -tohit and -range only affect the enemy when they get hit by the repel so alot of the times melee can get their hit in before the repel, -tohit and -range take affect. This defeats the purpose of what hurricane was meant to do for the set. My opinion is that the repel ticker should have been increased on force bubble not hurricane. Not because it's overpowered but because forcebubbles radius is so much larger. Melee literally had no chance of getting through force bubble and a decent chance with their ranged epic attacks.

I feel they should restore hurricane to the way it was before the 3/31 patch. Melee AT's get plenty of options later on to counter almost every effect hurricane does. Melee AT's get a ranged attack or hold which counters the hurricanes small radius. Melee AT's in CoH get Focused Accuracy which easily counters the tohit debuff in hurricane. Hurricane shouldn't be able to permanently pin someone but it should atleast keep melee toons away. That was the definable power for the set that made them survivable in pvp and pve.

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wurd.

btw, thanks for getting back to us on this castle.

it is appreciated.

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I haven't had time to get on test, but I was wondering what people are reporting about the changes to hurricane. Anyone have any stories?

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This is as good a place to put this, as any:

I checked in a few Hurricane changes today that QA is going to look at. In Theory, these changes should mean that for PvE, Hurricane acts Exactly as it did before the previous change, while in PvP, it should act exactly as it does currently. Hopefully this change will get a green light from QA -- I've spent quite a bit of time on it over the last few days.

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(copied from another thread)

i applaud castle's effort here and the attention he's given the player base.

still have to say, even for pvp, the fix does more than it intended. instead of just making it impossible to pin an opponant in a corner for the duration of a base raid, this "fix" opens storms up to a significant problem that had nothing to do with the original issue.

storm is now extremely vulnerable to blaster and defender melee

this will seriously impact a defender's survivability in the pvp game.

it will impact a controller's survivability too. however, controllers have their (very effective) primaries to assist them in picking up the slack. a defender's secondary is very weak in pvp. it will be woefully insufficient when it comes to dealing with the host of new dangerous opponants a storm finds himself dealing with in pvp.

remember guys...

storms have no self heal
storms have no mez protection
storms have no ranged defense
storms NOW HAVE extremely limited melee defense

they do not need this nerf.

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From Castle in dev digest:
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This is as good a place to put this, as any:

I checked in a few Hurricane changes today that QA is going to look at. In Theory, these changes should mean that for PvE, Hurricane acts Exactly as it did before the previous change, while in PvP, it should act exactly as it does currently. Hopefully this change will get a green light from QA -- I've spent quite a bit of time on it over the last few days.


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At least we'll have the repel effect back for PvE. I'm guessing the to-hit debuff change is going to stay in place though since he's only talking about a change specific to hurricane. I wonder how this change is being put into effect exactly, and what this will do the endurance costs in PvP vs. PvE.

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i applaud castle's effort here and the attention he's given the player base.

still have to say, even for pvp, the fix does more than it intended. instead of just making it impossible to pin an opponant in a corner for the duration of a base raid, this "fix" opens storms up to a significant problem that had nothing to do with the original issue.

storm is now extremely vulnerable to blaster and defender melee

this will seriously impact a defender's survivability in the pvp game.

it will impact a controller's survivability too. however, controllers have their (very effective) primaries to assist them in picking up the slack. a defender's secondary is very weak in pvp. it will be woefully insufficient when it comes to dealing with the host of new dangerous opponants a storm finds himself dealing with in pvp.

remember guys...

storms have no self heal
storms have no mez protection
storms have no ranged defense
storms NOW HAVE extremely limited melee defense

they do not need this nerf.

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I can sit on a ledge as a stalker and watch below what one power that one player has on is pwning countless players with and come to my conclusions from that alone if I needed to.

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i humbly submit that you are mistaken in your assessment of the above referenced dynamic.

that or you're just making it up.

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This is getting dull.

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Now take your medicine and like it!

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OK, it's dull, and you're flame bait. Lots of the nerfs were unneeded. Storm already was needlessly weak relative to other sets. They got hit extra hard. Regardless of whether you agree or not, they did. As hard as Tanks did before, and as hard as regen did. None of the sets needed it, and whether or not it will be admitted to by the devs (it won't), it was because of PVP and the wildly obnoxious and vocal component of hardcore PVPers.

As for taking medicine, I think you need some to stop the keyboard diaherea problem you seem to be having.

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I agree to your comments about many powers being nerfed for PvP. I've always said the same thing and the bs the devs have said on why it's done. Regen also got the "it'll save stamina to make IH a click" nonsense. Regen has Stamina and QR! Reduce end enhancements worked great if you used them on top of that. Endurance was never an issue! So no, I don't like nerfs to begin with. But because of nerfs to other powers, they have to nerf even more powers to make thing more balanced. I think hurricane needed to be nerfed for PvP. Not for PvE, because it never really seemed to work that great when Tsoo Sorcerers used it against my stalker.
Shrugs. Guess you guys will have to learn to live with the nerf. Go yell at Statesman though. He's the much more fun to loathe than me.

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i dunno...

your tenacity seems to suggest you get very excited by nerfs.

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This is getting dull.

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Now take your medicine and like it!

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No.

I already got hit by the IH nerfs. The last of which was a poorly thought out solution for a number of reasons. The travesty that is the IH clicky does not justify another poor solution.

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i agree.

this was not an appropriate solution to the purported problem.

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Sigh. Accept your nerf and learn to live with it. There are many other people out there who play different ATs that have had to alter their play style against their will for PvP nerfs. You're just a new member to the Club of Nerf and will learn to "adapt".

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i love it.

"adapt."

this, from the guy who refuses to lift a finger to do anything to fight a storm.

"adapt."

you mean, like PMing cuppa and asking for a nerf?

is that how we adapt?

thanks for the advice, man.

brilliant.

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You gotta be kidding. I'm not the player who stands there using one power and one power only except if it drops, then you use a travel power to haul [censored]... That's sort of a more of a refusual to diversify, adapt, or lift a finger if you ask me.

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nope.

you're the player who refuses to question his build, refuses to intelligently employ temp powers, refuses to diversify his team...etc.

i dunno man...seems the only thing you've done to "adapt" is call for a nerf.

gratz on that.

way to adapt.

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You just proved my point why hurricane needed the nerf bat. All those things melee is supposed to do for ONE power? Why? Cause you should be able to use one power and that's it while everyone else should have to do x amount of things like waste inf on non working temp powers, form teams that have range or mez, change travel powers, etc, ALL to deal with ONE power???? Why it needed to be nerfed. Come to Justice, let my Stalker give u a hug.

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scroll up.

re-read more carefully.

try again.

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This is getting dull.

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yup.

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problem is, man, you're not talking about a single power.

you're talking about the problem YOU had killing squishies when youre team went up against another team.

the only thing you noticed was hurricane.

you missed the mez protection, missed the heals and missed the damage coming in from the other team.

it wasn't your team against hurricane.

it was your team against theirs...and they brought a lot to the table. you can too with a little work.

trust me, i've seen it happen.

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No. I'm talking about problems the team had taking out a Stormie with like 2 people on his/her team with more people on my team on numerous occasions. I'm not talking about mez protection that didn't happens, I'm not talking about buffs that didn't happen, I'm talking about players who couldn't even get near to touch someone with hurricane so the Stormy didn't even need heals. When 8 people who are melee are surrounding a stormy and can't touch him, that's a problem. Seem people pinned against walls and corners and bus stops is a problem. The devs think so too. I think it is/was/maybe still is overpowered in PvP. No one AT should have to turn on a toggle and just stand there and just use one power.

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In MMO's I've found that when you have a numerically superior force, and are consistantly beaten then you need to seriously take a look at two likely explainations.

1.) They are much better players than you and your team. It happens alot, there will always be someone better than you. It's hard to accept, but it's there.

or

2.) The other players are average, but your team are a bunch of mindless fools. Even harder to accept, but it's still there.

Which one are you? Eight people continually trying to run up to a debuff / repel field and melee?

You tell me.

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I guess it would be similiar to 8 players running up to someone turning on the non nerfed phase shift, MoG, or IH. Perma God mode was nerfed. Like I said, they could have made it a click! They may still! I know nerfs suck, but you could have got the nerf bat swung a lot harder than no longer being able to toss everyone around all the time.

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i gotta meet these 8 players.

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Sigh. Accept your nerf and learn to live with it. There are many other people out there who play different ATs that have had to alter their play style against their will for PvP nerfs. You're just a new member to the Club of Nerf and will learn to "adapt".

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i love it.

"adapt."

this, from the guy who refuses to lift a finger to do anything to fight a storm.

"adapt."

you mean, like PMing cuppa and asking for a nerf?

is that how we adapt?

thanks for the advice, man.

brilliant.

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You gotta be kidding. I'm not the player who stands there using one power and one power only except if it drops, then you use a travel power to haul [censored]... That's sort of a more of a refusual to diversify, adapt, or lift a finger if you ask me.

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nope.

you're the player who refuses to question his build, refuses to intelligently employ temp powers, refuses to diversify his team...etc.

i dunno man...seems the only thing you've done to "adapt" is call for a nerf.

gratz on that.

way to adapt.

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this is like talking to the wall.

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I think it's more like two walls talking to each other. :-)

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bah!

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Sigh. Accept your nerf and learn to live with it. There are many other people out there who play different ATs that have had to alter their play style against their will for PvP nerfs. You're just a new member to the Club of Nerf and will learn to "adapt".

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i love it.

"adapt."

this, from the guy who refuses to lift a finger to do anything to fight a storm.

"adapt."

you mean, like PMing cuppa and asking for a nerf?

is that how we adapt?

thanks for the advice, man.

brilliant.

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Yes, I do. Storm never reads all mine and I continuously rehash them after what I had said was ignored. I guess Stone didn't read all my other posts or address those points either in a way other than someone desperately trying to not have their power nerfed. My previous posts state my reasonings for nerfing hurricane and each time I say the same thing over and over, I get a reply back from someone whose power that they don't want nerfed give me a laundry list of things of things to do that are too extensive to take out ONE power. Many of the other single powers that are/were over powered were nerfed. No one likes the, yada yada. I guess I could say to Stormies now "get a team to hide behind since they hid behind you" but they won't see the fairness in that either even when I've been told "get a team to take out a stormie". Balance in PvP, even though it's sort of broken in many ways in this game to begin with since ATs and powersets were made for PvE will require nerfs. Will it ever be perfect? No. I'd never expect an empathy healer to be able to Heal her opponent to death. But somehow, someway, he/she should have a chance at defeating, not just constantly tossing another toon around, an opponent. Now Stormies will have to make use of their other powers more, slot them appropriately(like I keep being told), etc etc. Same rules and annoyances should apply to all.

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oh i read them all alright.