Snow Globe

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but using a openly stated broken badge to compare to is not going to work here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[color= yellow]Yellow[/color] part re-added by me. [color= orange]Orange[/color] part highlighted.

There's a reason I added that bolded part at the end.

But you stated that "No other badge in the system does this". To show that as being false one only needs to show one example of the opposite, and there is no need for me, you, Positron, or my neighbor's cat to particularly *like* the other example. It just happens to be the easiest to show the extreme case of the opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, technically you are right. I should have said that "No other badges in the game are designed to be like this." Even Empath was designed to be done actively healing others. That people have perverted that intention doesn't make what I said false however.

[ QUOTE ]
But Empath isn't the only example (just the most extreme one). How about Damage badges? Mez badges?

[/ QUOTE ]
As designed, those badges are supposed to take a long time. I would say excessively so, and have. However they were not designed to be done while away from the game.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You basically have said to badge collectors exactly that: "Continue to collect badges, but only collect some of them."

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's already a history of that. That's what those of us who can't do the ski slopes were told. "Physical or other problems that prevent you from twitch gaming? Tough noogies."

[/ QUOTE ]
By players, not explicitly by the developers.

[ QUOTE ]
This is the merit I see to the 8 hour counts per 24 hour period idea someone else had. It makes the logged out times not easily farmable, while allowing for the rewards to pop every 10 days without forcing people that want the rewards to change their playstyle.

[/ QUOTE ]
That "someone else" would be me as well... As far as I know I'm the only one in this thread that mentioned it. A lot of people are set against it though.

Edit:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...umber=12177871

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That variance should be eliminated before launch. It serves no purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]
But it does. Just as hardcore players who spend 8 hours a day on average playing are able to access things like purple IOs and the epic badges and accolades, the day jobs and leveling pacts are geared toward the casual players who can't play nearly as often. The casual gamers can still get those accolades and purples eventually; the overachievers can still get the day jobs eventually. It's just going to take longer due to the playstyle.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you are saying that it is proper for the developers to pretty much punish players for wanting to play their badge characters? Because that is what it comes down to.

They could instead reward everyone equally (ie only count part of a real day as a full day when determining these rewards).

Casual gamers and alternate characters earn these badges faster than characters dedicated to collecting badges. There is something seriously wrong with this.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In this game every single badge is counted. Even the ones that Positron considers "not-badges": Gladiators. At that point your argument fails. If it looks like a badge, acts like a badge, then it should follow that they are badges.

[/ QUOTE ]

The game may count every single badge in the total, but that doesn't mean YOU have to do the same. You and the others to whom it matters can get together and agree which badges matter and which badges don't. If you don't like the vet badges or gladiators, then don't include them in your personal mental totals when comparing badges. Sure this might require a little extra effort on your part but it is really your extra mini game to begin with. Tons of people collect badges, but it really is a small amount that are fanatical about it, so take a little of that extra energy from badge hunting and put it to work on keeping your personal important badge total in your head.

[/ QUOTE ]
You missed a great post earlier in this thread about telling collectors what to collect.

[ QUOTE ]
You can't tell people "be a collector, of some stuff." That's incompatible with the collector mindset, and a good game designer should acknowledge the target audience they are targetting. If the devs are targetting people who care enough to pursue some of the badges with no meaning beyond collection, and will happily ignore all the ones that are designed to be out of reach, they are targetting a phone booth: there aren't bound to be lots of people like that.

[/ QUOTE ]
You basically have said to badge collectors exactly that: "Continue to collect badges, but only collect some of them."

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, it isn't. The time varies (in both extremes) from 30 days to 60 days for one day job badge as proposed. Now playing for 12 hours a day is unhealthy in the extreme. It is more likely that each Day job badge will take from 35-45 days, but there is still a variance. Variance != same for everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

The out-of-game time is the same for everybody. If you spend more time per day playing a character than somebody else, you are the one introducing variance, not Day Jobs.

[/ QUOTE ]
That variance should be eliminated before launch. It serves no purpose.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because trying to collect them actively prevents you from playing your character. No other badge in the system does this.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a matter of interpretation I suppose. One could argue that badges like Empath prevents you from playing your character in a similar fashion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but using a openly stated broken badge to compare to is not going to work here.

[ QUOTE ]
On the empath badge:
"I put one too many zeroes on the thing, and by the time I realized that it was really absurdly hard to get, it was too late because people had already tried to get it and I didn't want to invalidate their play experience or the achievement they had earned. (Castle: That's the first time I've heard that story.) [...] Ten thousand Rikti monkeys changed when we changed the way--a core mechanic of the game changed, which was herding. Ten thousand Rikti monkeys was literally put in because you could herd a hundred Rikti monkeys at a time and kill them all."

[/ QUOTE ]
When the Lead Developer on an interview states a badge is broken, it ceases to be something that can be compared to until fixed, unless you are comparing just how long something is broken for or by how much it is broken compared to other broken badges.

[ QUOTE ]
As for capping the reward rate, that would essentially equalize the reward rate (excepting around the clock offline farms of one kind or another), and that would seem to be contrary to what I believe is one of the intended effects of the system.

[/ QUOTE ]
Show me where you can possibly infer that.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are badges that are not visible, are not counted towards the the badge count, yet functions as gatekeepers for different things. Case in point: completing the other faction's mission for the Valentines event awards one of these invisible markers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this okay, but having the badges in a completely separate category on a separate tab not good enough?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because trying to collect them actively prevents you from playing your character. No other badge in the system does this. Having them on a separate tab does nothing to fix the problem they cause. Positron also said that they didn't want to add more tabs to the badge window, of course they then added the veteran rewards tab.

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps some people want to be able to have their day job selected as a title, and the devs didn't want to waste time coding a whole new system to allow this to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, if people wanted titles, there is already a mechanism to do this: The title system. Go to any trainer and request a title. Problem solved.

[ QUOTE ]
Just because something is called a "badge" doesn't give it the same level of collectible as every other item called a "badge". This is true even in the real world. A badge can be a form of identification, a merit of achievement, a souvenir, an award, and a representation of membership within a collective, among other things. Just because you might like collecting some of these doesn't mean you will have equal access to all of them.


[/ QUOTE ]
In this game every single badge is counted. Even the ones that Positron considers "not-badges": Gladiators. At that point your argument fails. If it looks like a badge, acts like a badge, then it should follow that they are badges.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure people would love to collect day job badges. However the length of time proposed is too much.

People collect the in game souvenirs, yet they are not visible to others so that could be a personal record. Day jobs could have been like that. Day jobs could have been a special title that you could go to a trainer or one of the "professionals" related to the day job to apply to your character. The badge system didn't need to be used visibly.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does it matter how visible the colectible items are? I thought this was about collecting things, not competing with others.

[/ QUOTE ]
Better that they NOT be visibly collectible items if the implementation is flawed from the start.

[ QUOTE ]
And if you are competing with others, then the length of time doesn't matter as long as it is the same for everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it isn't. The time varies (in both extremes) from 30 days to 60 days for one day job badge as proposed. Now playing for 12 hours a day is unhealthy in the extreme. It is more likely that each Day job badge will take from 35-45 days, but there is still a variance. Variance != same for everyone.

To make it less of a variance, the developers could cap the reward day at 8 hours per day. So instead of 2,592,000 seconds, it would be 864,000 seconds, but would grant the award every 30 days unless someone played for 16 hours a day. They should have a way to tell if anyone is consistently playing that long and likely should notify medical health people for an intervention.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No badge hunter in this thread up until your post has suggested removing the system entirely. There are those that want the times reduced and those that want the badges removed, but no one mentioned the reward system itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

But, as with the veteran rewards, it appears they need some kind of flag to determine who gets what, and the badge/accolade system is the easiest way to do that. Sure, they could come up with an entirely new system that duplicates exactly what we already have with badges and accolades now, but that seems like a big waste of time. Why can't badge hunters just separate "collector's badges" from "flag badges" in their minds instead of essentially asking the devs to waste development time doing the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually they don't have to come up with a new system that does exactly what these badges do:

There are badges that are not visible, are not counted towards the the badge count, yet functions as gatekeepers for different things. Case in point: completing the other faction's mission for the Valentines event awards one of these invisible markers.

[ QUOTE ]
You say that no one is against the reward system itself, but don't you think people could just as easily want to collect Day Jobs as badges? What is it about a badge that makes it different from any other reward? Just because something is called a "badge", that somehow makes it more collectible than other rewards, and requires the devs to make it relatively easy to obtain?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure people would love to collect day job badges. However the length of time proposed is too much.

People collect the in game souvenirs, yet they are not visible to others so that could be a personal record. Day jobs could have been like that. Day jobs could have been a special title that you could go to a trainer or one of the "professionals" related to the day job to apply to your character. The badge system didn't need to be used visibly.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm just saying make badges as a result of doing stuff, not as a result of NOT doing stuff. I can't see how anyone, regardless of "hardcore badger" status, could be objecting to that.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am not a hardcore badger, but I understand your point. However, the point of doing something for a badge, kinda blows itself in the foot when it comes to "spend time in X zone badges."

How many people have gotten the "spend time in zone" badges without actually being at their computer? (Incase it's an exploit, I am not stating how to do it.)

Or, the infamous damage badge trick? Which also lets you not log off, go to sleep, and wake up with a badge or two.

Isn't this the same principle as staying in one place and actually logging off?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm actually pretty infamous in the badge section for fighting against all your rebuttals in this post.

I've asked for removal of the auto-log prevention for years. I've been consistent in this plea.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Getting a badge for doing nothing isn't fun."

[/ QUOTE ]
For *you*. It's great fun for *me.*

[/ QUOTE ]
We all play the game. The completist/collector mentality is just as valid as the Social Networker or PVPer.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rewards for being logged out of a toon isn't "content". But that's what you're supporting, while turning a blind eye to the valid (and, I hope, equally constructive) complaints from the segment of the populace that knows WTH badges take to earn the MOST.

[/ QUOTE ]
I reject your implication that badge hounds have more expertise in game design simply because this mini-game involves badges.

[/ QUOTE ]
Badgers have more expertise when it comes to badges than anyone else in the game. This includes the developers. Just because the developers have created the badges doesn't mean that they fully understand the implications behind the badge hunting/collecting mentality. In fact it has been proven that Positron and the rest of the developers do NOT understand this group of players.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A reward for doing nothing is not a badge. You're right: Neither is Empath. Neither is Immortal. Neither are the vet badges. If I had my way, I'd see THEM removed from the badge system too.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you can see why Empath is a broken badge, then a rational person would ignore it. If you can see why the badges associated with Day Jobs are not like the other badges, then a rational person would ignore them. If you're claiming you have the inability to simply ignore it, then you are admitting you have a problem and are in the same company with the one who admits they have an OCD.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the system hasn't been put into place. Now is exactly the right time to get the badges fixed. All you have to do is look at the resistance Positron is exerting to NOT change the Empath badge.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Zombie, NEVER encourage the populace to ignore each other. Because at the end of the day, all that encourages is ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reread please. I said that the *lament* should be ignored, not the hounds. The lament is a demand that all badges should be obtainable on one toon. And that lament is a straitjacket to development of content *and minigames* such as badging. It is that straitjacketing of game development that should soundly be ignored.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, you are asking that those who enjoy the badge system the most should be ignored.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another thing.... just keep all your toons logged off for 3 days... call your contact or whatever, drop your mission and get double xp! lol

[/ QUOTE ]
Ugh, even I didn't think about that. I personally detest the way players use that "feature". It was meant to bypass buggy missions so you wouldn't have to call a GM to fix things. It was NOT meant for risk free xp on lesser played characters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't the announcement say that it was only for mob kills?

[/ QUOTE ]
Even if it were only double xp for mob kills, there are other considerations with the mission dropping. Namely, the salvage drop bonuses. I could see entire accounts being made that devoted to mission dropping for salvage.

[ QUOTE ]
The Badge Hound's lament that they need to get every badge should be vigorously ignored by the development team, for, in the end, it's a demand that the devs do not put in so much content that they can't do it all. In the end, it's a brake on the development of the game. It's the equivalent of demanding an amusement park that's not so large that they can't go on every ride in a single day.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.

No badge hunter in this thread up until your post has suggested removing the system entirely. There are those that want the times reduced and those that want the badges removed, but no one mentioned the reward system itself.

There is also calls for clarification of a few points (like what level 50s are going to get for being on patrol).

Having issues with the badge aspect of the system does not equal people wanting the content removed.

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing.... just keep all your toons logged off for 3 days... call your contact or whatever, drop your mission and get double xp! lol

[/ QUOTE ]
Ugh, even I didn't think about that. I personally detest the way players use that "feature". It was meant to bypass buggy missions so you wouldn't have to call a GM to fix things. It was NOT meant for risk free xp on lesser played characters.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is the first time that a badge has been awarded to a player for NOT actively accomplishing something.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not true. There are badges you can get just standing AFK in certain zones. This used to be especially annoying in Siren's Call, due to the way the 'mini game' there is set up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Those badges are not designed to be achieved by AFK. Those were meant to be earned by participating in the zones.

I've said for years now (literally) that AFK exemptions such as Task Forces should be removed. That would force people have to do something (even if it is logging on) to earn those time badges.

[ QUOTE ]
As far as badges are concerned I am going to make an unpopular comparison. To me, it's like being upset that they aren't giving out the 6 year anniversary badge this year. "Why make us wait!?! It will come out eventually!"

The fact is, it's a system everyone will be in, badger A and badger B will still be getting these badges at the same pace, more or less. Even if it's your most played character I certainly hope that character spends more time offline than on.

[/ QUOTE ]
Broken comparison: Veteran Reward Time is gained without regard for on- or off- line time. I would have to specifically avoid a favorite character (my first 50) to collect the badges.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, how about this: Can the developers confirm that the double xp bars would double the INF that would normally be earned instead of XP, and the extra debt removal be equally increased at level 50?

It seems to me that all the rest of these rewards are meant for all characters, why would this be an exception?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the question is "why are some rewards valuable to a level 50 and why are some not?" that might seem like a reasonable question. But given the apparent design intent, the actual question being asked is ultimately "why would a reward explicitly intended to accelerate levelling not be meant for a level 50?" and in that event the answer is obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I was not asking either of those questions. I was asking what happens when a level 50 which does the exact same activity (or lack thereof) as any other character. I do understand that you see this as a levelling tool. I don't.

Why specifically exclude a whole class of characters doing the same thing? It seems prejudicial.

[ QUOTE ]
It does not appear to be a reward that just happens to involve XP. It seems to be a reward explicitly targetting levelling speed: the fact that its benefit accrues relative to "bars" of XP and not points of XP or minutes played means its intended to be a proportional levelling speed boost.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right now, each bar of XP is worth a set amount each level. Any XP at level 50 is converted to either INF or extra debt reduction. Why not this XP? This is, of course, assuming that it wasn't just left out of the announcement.

[ QUOTE ]
Since there are rewards that 50s can get but not others (epic archetypes, purple recipes) I don't see any specific reason why every single reward must include level 50s as participants, especially when they are so specifically targeted at an activity that level 50s no longer participate in.

[/ QUOTE ]
Except that any level can get a purple drop. All the character has to do is sidekick to a level 50 and help beat up level 50+ mobs.

Yes, only level 50s can unlock the Epic ATs. They do this one time only per side. The developers have stated multiple times that will not happen again (other methods will unlock future ATs).

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quite relevant when several people in this thread alone have sigs with multiple level 50s listed.

[/ QUOTE ]

well good for them, I have several 50's as well, I don't see the 2XP as a issue as much as the monthly timer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please see my first post in this thread. I see it as one of the potential problems with the system.

[ QUOTE ]
If ten days is what it takes to max out a day job's bonus, why not make that the requirement for the badge?

[/ QUOTE ]
This seems more reasonable than the 30 day time limit. However I suspect that it is designed as a graded system (you have to "complete" the activity, this case being off line, 3 times to earn the badge).

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Double XP does a level 50 how much good?

[/ QUOTE ]

irrelevant when everyone doesn't have a 50.

[/ QUOTE ]
Quite relevant when several people in this thread alone have sigs with multiple level 50s listed.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Double XP does a level 50 how much good?

[/ QUOTE ]
If it doesn't do any good, would that be a problem?

[/ QUOTE ]
A reward that isn't a reward is a problem. A big one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if its not intended to be a reward for level 50s in the first place. XP itself is a reward that has no benefit to 50s, because 50s don't need to level anymore. That doesn't make XP itself problematic.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, how about this: Can the developers confirm that the double xp bars would double the INF that would normally be earned instead of XP, and the extra debt removal be equally increased at level 50?

It seems to me that all the rest of these rewards are meant for all characters, why would this be an exception?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Badgers are collectors. Setting this system up the way it is is bound to feel punishing to that personality type.

[/ QUOTE ]
This makes a lot of sense to me. Let's dump the whole mechanic that gives a little bonus to folks, something else to do in the game, and throws the RPers a bone, because it may interfere with a few folks' obsessive compulsion.

I wouldn't mind if the amount of time to earn the badge is reduced, but to me this is like getting something for nothing. There's no downside.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please show me where I ask to get rid of the system entirely. I never did. I said there was a problem with badges. The rest of my initial comments were directed at getting more clarification and hopes to correct something before it becomes a problem.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why does everyone (mostly) want to just blow thru content? It seems ost want everythign right now.. I think the system is great the way its explained... They only problem i see is for people ( the few ) that only play one toon. If i am hooked on playing a toon all my other toons will be earning rested XP, bonuses and other rewards. Its a great idea and system.

I like it, I hope it stays as is...

[/ QUOTE ]

How is staying logged off a character "content"?

We are getting a mission architect, new stuff in Cimerora, and whatever else is thrown in. We are getting plenty of content. Don't punish badgers for wanting to complete their collections. 30 days is too long.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adding new badges to the game punishes badgers?

[/ QUOTE ]
Badgers are collectors. Setting this system up the way it is is bound to feel punishing to that personality type.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you cap it at a max 8 hours of off-line time per 24 hours or real time? This would allow people to play their characters, yet get the awards at the same time as everyone else.

<snip>

Why not cap being on patrol at another 8 hours per diem? This combined with the day jobs capped lets players play a total of 8 hours without interfering with the reward.

[/ QUOTE ]

The system essentially
a) encourages people to play alts
b) give more "casual" players (players who don't spend as much time in-game) a bit of an edge compared to more dedicated players. (edit: given that they divide their time among a similar number of characters, and that number is not sufficiently high to allow the player with more in-game time to play in a permanently "buffed" state)

Your proposed limits would essentially nullify both of those things, which if any of those things were intended (which seems very possible given how the system is designed) would be contrary to the design of the system.

Simply put, it doesn't seem like the system is intended to give every character the awards at the same rate regardless of how much they are played.


[/ QUOTE ]
a) We already have more than enough encouragement to play alts.
b) Casual and dedicated players should be equal in this respect, and neither one given an advantage.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why the fudge 30 days? Given that an in game day is 30 minutes, that means if you have to spend 720 hours off-line your character has "worked" 1,440 hours to get a single badge. I'm a fan of "nice round numbers", but yikes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how that's relevant. 30 days was likely chosen because it was deemed to be an appropriate real-time "investment" for the rewards in question (or at least a good starting point). It can be debated if 30 days really is appropriate, but I strongly doubt that the number of "in-game days" was ever considered, nor do I feel that it should be.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why compare the offline-time required to get a badge to the online-time spent getting to 50?
I could see why someone might be interested in comparing it to the off-line time (time since creation - online-time) an average character spends before getting to 50, but why would a comparison to online-time be interesting?

[/ QUOTE ]
Tell that to nearly anyone on Virtue. The Role-Play factor is something that might need to be addressed as this is essentially a Role-Play award.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Double XP does a level 50 how much good?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it doesn't do any good, would that be a problem?

[/ QUOTE ]
A reward that isn't a reward is a problem. A big one.

Say if I told you that someone told you that they'd give you 1 marble a day. But you can only hold 10 marbles, and you are not allowed to get rid of any marbles. Any more marbles are not given to you, instead they disappear.

At that point you'd be saying why give me marbles as a reward, because I can't use it.

[ QUOTE ]
From a different point of view, this is added purely as added flavor for a character. It's not added purely as badge material for those who must have them all, and now. Taking a month to earn a free benefit we've never had access to before doesn't seem outrageous.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then they shouldn't have tied it to visible badges.