Smiling_Joe
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Quote:Nope. As I said earlier - I found some mathematical errors in my previous spreadsheets. Microcosm was the first to point it out in that very thread you quoted, and I promised at the time to correct them as I had time. I've had time.Originally Posted by Big_Soto
Why do your numbers differ from what you posted on another thread about WS damage. Did WS get some sort of nerf?
Namely, I had build up and mire buffing both the base and enhanced damage on each power, which is wrong.
What you're seeing here are the corrected numbers, and also the fact that the past thread you're quoting had pet damage included, and the post from this thread that you're quoting doesn't. THAT post was illustrating how much damage the pets account for. For warshade damage with pet damage included, you might want to check a few posts up.
EDIT: Here, if you're going to compare the numbers I posted before to the numbers I'm maintaining now, I'll go ahead and quote the correct current numbers for you. The current numbers with the changes to peacebringers and damage buffs properly buffing base damage are:
Quote:Peacebringers
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 117
Dwarf: 82
Nova: 88
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 170
Dwarf: 137
Nova: 173
Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 165
Dwarf: 331
Nova: 106
Fatal Burst:
Human: 5387
Dwarf: 10773
Nova: 3859
Warshades
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 186
Dwarf: 196
Nova: 182
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 264
Dwarf: 302
Nova: 383
Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 1 Foe=99 10 Foes=876
Dwarf: 1 Foe=345 10 Foes=1506
Nova: 1 Foe=82 10 Foes=868
Fatal Burst:
Human: 1 Foe=1772 10 Foes=3981
Dwarf: 1 Foe=6476 10 Foes=9169
Nova: 1 Foe=1478 10 Foes=3941 -
Quote:Can't argue more direct damage to warshades without crying nerf and letting loose the bats of balance against Dark Extraction. The last thing I want is to see Dark Extraction nerfed.Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Well, does a Peacebringer's ST damage make up for it? I'm not entirely sure. Looking at those numbers, I rather wonder if a better thing to argue for is better ST DPS for both Peacebringers and Warshades, as it is rather anemic. I know the whole game is not balanced around defeating pylons, but those numbers are what... not even half of what is needed to drop a pylon? Seems kind of iffy for an AT that is mostly offense oriented.
Not to mention that the anemic damage is balanced against an inherent that gives us - among other things - more damage. In fact, it's possible to cap damage with the inherent, slotting and build up/mire. A better solution than direct damage IMHO would be then to nerf the inherent in favor of direct damage boosts to the powers themselves. Not the damage modifier, because that would bring our modifier too high in relation to other archetypes.
So that leaves us with the developers changing every single damage dealing power in the kheldian archetypes AND nerfing the inherent AND testing all of the above.
Or they could just change Photon Seekers to give a comparable damage contribution to Dark Extraction. My original suggestion was to decrease the recharge and give them the fiery embrace treatment:
With just that change to ONE power - leaving Build Up as it is - gives the following stats:Quote:The current suggestion I'm currently running the numbers on gives photon seekers the Fiery Embrace treatment, where their self destruct power also grants the player an extra 15% energy damage proc on each of his attacks PER SEEKER for 30 seconds, giving a total damage buff of 45% for 30 seconds after the seekers explode, provided they all explode at the same time. This, along with lowering the recharge to somewhere around 120 seconds (and if I'm calculating correctly you'll have to have considerable IO investment in recharge bonuses to bring that recharge down to 30 seconds, and I don't think you'd bring it down much lower). Flag the photon seekers the way MM tier 1 pets are flagged - making them unique after 3 - and call it a day.
Single Target:
Human: 132
Nova: 106
Dwarf: 100
AOE:
Human: 207
Nova: 218
Dwarf: 177
Bringing us even closer to warshade damage and maintaining a double digit (but still admittedly small) dps difference between the human and nova aoe. Add to that the fact that it's an energy proc and you've got something that isn't wasted in the damage cap on teams.
And you've only changed one power to do it.
Keep in mind that a human form peacebringer will have photon seekers, dawn strike, solar flare, luminous detonation and proton scatter, which - with the new inner light in place of build up - will be fairly respectable. And Nova does knockback too with its detonation, but knockback is a different argument.Quote:And I'm not sure that Peacebringers are that one form oriented (just wanting to be convinced). It seems like the human form AOE damage seems iffy, since it seems like you couldn't keep it up in game: Solar Flare would knock things back, Photon Seekers does as well, etc., whereas Nova can just keep applying it to every mob and more than once. I also thought Inner Light giving some more benefit to forms would have a bigger impact on their DPS as well.
I'm quite sure the work on kheldians is a work in progress, and was surprised these changes got this far. Rather than sit back quietly and hope for the best, however, I thought I'd leave feedback while they were still a work in progress.Quote:I also wanted to respond to this:
It sounds like Arbiter Hawk has been playing Kheldians a lot to get to where the changes are. He's also stated many times that he will keep his eye on them to see what more changes (if any) are needed, besides the promises of future adjustments to animations.
Added to that is the information that Second Measure gave to Chad Gulzow-man (who asked about Kheldians at SDCC for me). He said that they were looking at them, but not to expect anything until I22. I have no idea if the current changes were able to be moved up and he wasn't aware of that at the time, or if they have more planned.
Still, with all of that together, it's good to remember that there is a lot going on in game right now (and not just with Kheldians), but that the devs do have their eye on us. So make good cases for what you want to see changed, and don't get too annoyed if you don't see it right away. We're in a very different spot now than we have been since I11.
I must admit I despaired a little when Arbiter Hawk said he was not currently planning on changing Solar Flare or Pulsar last week, but I do know that he is paying attention and working on things. Being positive overall about this will be a good thing.
*added*
And I can't emphasize enough that it sounds like art and FX are swamped right now, and that seems to be putting a crimp in how much can be done for Kheldians right now. So take that into account when wondering why some changes are or are not happening. -
Quote:If my numbers are right - and the ones above do reflect the new inner light - you'll never need to leave human form.Originally Posted by Jibikao
The new changes just make me want to play Human form more, although I can see the benefit of using Inner Light and change to Nova/Dwarf.
That's my problem with the changes. -
Anyone who's been looking at the open beta forums today knows I'm not a fan of these changes, but here at least is how they pan out on the ol' handy-dandy spreadsheets:
There were some problems with the math on my former spreadsheets, which have now been corrected on these:
Peacebringer Analysis
Warshade Analysis
The formulae for my calculations are located at the top of each page where relevant, and you can copy/paste the build in the note of the yellow box at the top marked... "BUILD" for a peek at the SO builds I used.
Here's the rundown:
Peacebringers
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 117
Dwarf: 82
Nova: 101
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 170
Dwarf: 137
Nova: 196
Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 165
Dwarf: 331
Nova: 106
Fatal Burst:
Human: 5387
Dwarf: 10773
Nova: 3859
Warshades
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 186
Dwarf: 196
Nova: 182
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 264
Dwarf: 302
Nova: 383
Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 1 Foe=99 10 Foes=876
Dwarf: 1 Foe=345 10 Foes=1506
Nova: 1 Foe=82 10 Foes=868
Fatal Burst:
Human: 1 Foe=1772 10 Foes=3981
Dwarf: 1 Foe=6476 10 Foes=9169
Nova: 1 Foe=1478 10 Foes=3941
So... yeah. There they are.
EDIT - changed the nova damage potential to the corrected figures. Wish my math were stronger from the gate. -
Quote:Without the pets' and the nukes' damage contribution, the damage numbers stand as follows:Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Smiling Joe, thanks for the analysis with numbers. I feel like that was lacking in Closed Beta, as I just don't have the gumption or know how (without a lot of time investment to remind myself) to work all those tables. The damage performance between the two is still depressingly low. Would Solar Flare being KD help with that, or is it really just the pets that make the difference, as you say?
Peacebringers
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 101
Dwarf: 66
Nova: 72
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 122
Dwarf: 89
Nova: 125
Warshades
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 66
Dwarf: 76
Nova: 62
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 76
Dwarf: 114
Nova: 195
With the notable exception of Black Dwarf, Peacebringers HANDS DOWN outdamage Warshades outside of pet damage.
Dark Extraction with hasten and SO's can be stacked, and two extracted essences can crank out 114 dps against a single target and bring to bear an intimidating 167 dps in AoE damage potential against entire spawns.
Let me put it this way: in 2.24 seconds three Photon Seekers can put out 533 points of damage against a single target. During those same two seconds the warshade's extracted essences deal 255.36 points of damage against the same target. Two seconds later they've equaled Photon Seekers' damage. Four seconds later they've doubled it.
Where are Photon Seekers after eight seconds? Even the new ones are recharging.
EDIT - Keeping those essences alive is the price a warshade pays for that kind of potential. But shouldn't the gap be a whole lot less at the very least? -
Quote:It's close enough not to matter. Castle felt that the addition of Mez protection alone would obviate dwarf form. This... well, you're probably looking at a new human former.Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
The numbers you just posted indicated dwarf was still ahead. Even if the two forms have the same resistance, dwarf does have a larger hp pool, and it's better able to handle mass aggro from having higher mez protection.
Human's a lot closer for survivability with these changes than it was, especially in the practical sense of not being mezzed by a sneeze, but it definitely hasn't beaten dwarf, as far as I can tell. -
Quote:I'm already assuming that anything that gets to this phase is going into the game, but I would be remiss if I didn't at least point out the obvious. If the changes go in, I'll just respec into human form and learn to play a different way, I suppose.Originally Posted by Zenyth
I dont do it often, but ill give the devs the benefit of the doubt this one time. It'd be a whole lot easier if, say...Arbiter Hawk would pop into the kheld forums and talk to us, bounce his ideas off us, let us bounce our ideas off him; but thats not how things are gonna work. It seems they're gonna stick to talking to their testers and themselves, and just reading some of what the rest of the unwashed masses have said and working off that...So we gotta work with what we're given for now.
Allowing us to cast it from forms would help with the burst aspect - I don't typically have four to five seconds (counting Photon Seekers and the shift back into form) to wait around for animations when I'm in combat.Quote:Im still a fan of the "hell on earth" solution. a buff that'll spread out our seekers over a duration rather than dropping em all at once...which, while nice, is probably why the numbers dont pan out for it...its a lovely large burst all at once, and then you're waiting for it to cooldown for the next one.
That's the problem with an archetype of diverse talents - diverse playerbase. Lately I've been happy with just getting people to admit there was a problem.Quote:That gets us back to the "how" portion of my previous question though. If we could settle on a solution the devs would likely just go with that and we'd all be happy (hopefully) and everything is hunky dory...but we cant get everyone to agree on just about anything...
But then the players don't have access to the data at the developers' disposal. We shouldn't have to solve the problem ourselves, much less agree on it. Developers have all the data and direction they need to make balance decisions and testers to confirm them.
I just don't see how that data could possibly have been used or confirmed with the current changes.
There's an easy metric for that: warshades. The developers don't have to look at blasters, tanks or scrappers to see how powerful to make one form verses another; Warshades already have it right. Just looking at the numbers above shows that as plain as the disturbing picture of the dancing squid.Quote:For that they've gotta decide just where the forms all need to be...just how good should nova be compared to a blaster? Where should tankers/brutes stand compared to dwarf? Should Human be able to get that close to both of them? Should we maintan the triform as standard or shift to a single form focused philosophy?
Warshades are where the forms need to be with relation to each other. One would think that any changes to Peacebringers would have kept that ratio in mind.
These changes don't so much close the gap as create a new metric for Peacebringers that is clearly separate from Warshades. What's easier to balance against: a functioning archetype or... well.... nothing?Quote:Probably...
But the more we close the HUGE GAP the more we can focus on changing the perception of the AT's, and the more I can feel like im not a fifth wheel when im playing with my friends.
I'd go for the former, myself, but the latter seems to be the direction we're headed. -
Quote:Thing is, with these changes human form is even more survivable than dwarf - never mind the mez. I'd take increased aggro management for dwarf as a trade-off for that, however.Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
I wasn't going to mention the dwarf thing, though I noticed it before. I'm assuming new designers means new thinking. Maybe whoever's behind the change agreed with me that dwarf form should be for heavy tanking and aggro control and mez shouldn't be used as an excuse to keep the human form's practicality suppressed. Sure, white dwarf's damage is abysmal even by tank standards and its aggro control is terrible, but the aggro control could be reasonably easily improved at least.
-
I thought as much. Thanks!
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Quote:Originally Posted by Zenyth
Smiling_Joe, you're gung-ho behind "fix the seekers, save the world", and thats ALL thats needed.
No, no. That's not the only thing I want. It's just the single easiest way to address the disparity between the two.
And we have all presented our ideas, but were they really read by the devs? By the looks of the changes, they just skimmed through the first page or two of posts at some point this month, because all the discussion we had in the forums prior to that has apparently been disregarded.
I'd rather see Photon Seekers turned into some sort of clone of Extracted Essences than I would see Light Form turned into a clone of Eclipse.
What REALLY needs to happen is to take the forms into account when making changes to the archetype. That obviously either wasn't done or there is a new, single-form heavy direction for Peacebringers.
Either way they'll still be underperforming.
EDIT - To satisfy my curiosity, what forest are we missing? -
I said it in my last post, and I'll say it again:
The changes you're proposing for Peacebringers won't work.
Oh, they'll increase survivability and damage, but there's more at stake than that.
Last round of changes to Kheldians, Castle flat-out refused to add mez protection to human form. Why? Because there would be no reason to take dwarf form.
Well, congratulations - you've managed to obviate not one, but both peacebringer non-human forms.
Look at the numbers I've posted above.
Humans outdamage novas in single target - it's always worked that way, even for warshades. It balances out when AoE's are taken into account. Looking at the warshade damage potential numbers that still holds true.
EDIT - the following paragraph is not quite as true as it was when I first posted it. Human form does NOT come three dps shy of Nova - it comes about 23 dps shy. Still not enough, IMHO, but enough for me to point out anything that becomes blatant hyperbole as a result of my bad math:
However, you've significantly reduced the recharge of photon seekers and made solar flare useable from the air, AND you've given the bulk of the new build up's buff to human form, only allowing a third of the damage buff to effectively carry over into the forms. This gives enough AoE damage to human form to come just three dps shy of the bright nova's aoe potential. Add the new flight power (and the ability to use solar flare from the air) and you've taken away the only other thing nova had going: unsupressed flight. All that's left is ranged damage, and with the new build up human form peacebringers will be able to leverage the human blasts even more.
Then there's dwarf. With the new light form, humans can cap their resistances almost to the point of perma (with just hasten and SO's there's only 26 seconds of downtime!) and even though you've reduced the mez protection, it's still more than what was asked for when Castle refused it originally. Throw in just one or two controllers on the team and there's no reason to go dwarf. About the only thing White Dwarf will be able to do that human form can't do better is tank and teleport.
...and still peacebringers are doing far less damage than warshades. And the difference is STILL the pets. The problem was never build up.
Honestly. All you had to do was
FIX THE GORRAM PHOTON SEEKERS!!! -
Okay, I've taken the time to plug the new numbers into my spreadsheets. I'm not going to waste a whole lot of space talking about the spreadhseets and the rationales for why I used SO builds or what attack chains. If you're interested in that, here's the link where I originally applied some math to the Peacebringer/Warshade performance disparity.
There were some problems with the math on those spreadsheets, which have now been corrected on these:
Peacebringer Analysis
Warshade Analysis
The formulae for my calculations are located at the top of each page where relevant, and you can copy/paste the build in the note of the yellow box at the top marked... "BUILD" for a peek at the SO builds I used.
Here's the rundown:
Peacebringers
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 117
Dwarf: 82
Nova: 101
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 170
Dwarf: 137
Nova: 196
Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 165
Dwarf: 331
Nova: 106
Fatal Burst:
Human: 5387
Dwarf: 10773
Nova: 3859
Warshades
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 186
Dwarf: 196
Nova: 182
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 264
Dwarf: 302
Nova: 383
Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 1 Foe=99 10 Foes=876
Dwarf: 1 Foe=345 10 Foes=1506
Nova: 1 Foe=82 10 Foes=868
Fatal Burst:
Human: 1 Foe=1772 10 Foes=3981
Dwarf: 1 Foe=6476 10 Foes=9169
Nova: 1 Foe=1478 10 Foes=3941
Tell ya what. I'll cut this post short and tell you why these changes won't work in the next post. M'kay? See you there. -
Quote:Agreed. Warshade players arguing that buffs to Peacebringers aren't fair because it MIGHT make Peacebringers better in some way than the already-awesome Warshades gets put in my "One Hell Of A Note" file.Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
What I am arguing against, to be blunt, is the blatant act of 'forum pvp' on the part of these players who are clearly and unarguably trying to limit or block the improvement of another AT to maintain the statistical dominance of the one they prefer to play. And it is, in this specific case most especially, it is outright despicable given both the magnitude of the performance gap and the fact that it has existed and persisted since the introduction of the ATs, years ago.
Especially when it looks like even with the changes Warshades will STILL be significantly out-damaging Peacebringers. -
Quote:Nowhere do you talk about the sapping and the -recovery that eclipse does, as well. So once the alpha is past, you've got capped resistances to everything including psi and you've slowed down incoming damage via their blue bars.Originally Posted by Microcosm
Then argue for fixing pulsar. Don't overdue it on lightform when your real problem is with the underperforming mez. Plus, wouldn't you rather have a slightly reduced res value in order to gain some psi? And again you would still be able to hit 85% with either shields or dwarf; no one is trying to take that away.
Since Light Form doesn't do anything to debuff the enemy, and doesn't do anything to slow down the actual damage, AND doesn't even give resistance to psi, I don't see how you can argue that the changes to Light Form will be out of balance with Eclipse.
And if you can argue that Light Form will cap resistances when added to the human shields or the dwarf resistances then we can say that Eclipse is safe when used after Gravitic Emanation in conjunction with Inky Aspect and Shadow Cloak.
It's a bit disingenuous to assert that Eclipse is dangerous to use when you have that many powers in your primary and secondary that let you use it with impunity.
EDIT - I see you did comment on the sapping and -recovery after I posted. Tell ya what. Get back to me when the -def from peacebringer's attacks does something useful.
Regardless of the value you assign to it, the secondary effect is still there, and must be accounted for when determining whether or not a power is balanced.
Go argue in another thread about how useful the sapping and -recovery is. -
Quote:thank you!!!Originally Posted by zenyth
mag 3 mez protection
52-ish % resistance to everything but psionic...all i have slotted in it is a recharge io...
Inner light is 72% dmg buff for 10 seconds, and 28.8% for 30 seconds. I dont remember the tohit numbers on that unfortunately.
Id give you something more accurate but with the store down they've locked me out of my kheld...again...
Edit: Checked on a scrapper i just made...52.5% resistance to everything but psi on light form, 20% tohit for 10, 7.7% tohit for 30 on inner light. -
Hello all! I'm working up corrected spreadsheets to reflect the new changes to Kheldians on Test, but I have a question that only just occurred to me:
Normally Build Up/Mire affects only a power's base damage. But Nova form boosts the base damage of it's attacks. So my question is this: Does Build Up/Mire affect a nova's damage BEFORE the form's damage boost is applied, or after? -
Just read the thread (and just found out about the changes, so I'm not at home to log into test).
If anyone has some in-game numbers for the new light form and inner light, I'll plug them into my spreadsheets to see just how far these changes go towards bringing us up to Warshades' level.
I've plugged in the new recharge for Photon Seekers in the meantime. Unless Inner Light will suddenly start affecting their damage, it looks like Photon Seekers' damage contribution will bring the Peacebringer dps from that comparison up from 111 dps to about 116 dps. For comparison, the Warshade's dps was 189.
So, yeah. Can't say whether the new change is enough until I see the numbers for the other two powers.
But let me just take a minute to laugh at the notion that eclipse is dangerous to use. I can stealth in with shadow cloak and super speed and be at the resist cap FOR EVERYTHING before the alpha, and I've debuffed their recovery, and I've sapped them all for a good amount. And you say it's DANGEROUS?! HA!!
So let's see...
Eclipse=can cap resistance to all damage forms, debuffs recovery and endurance, can be made perma, has no crash, requires enemies to use and to maximize, and offers no mez protection.
New Light Form=can almost cap resistance to all damage but psi, does no debuffs, can be made perma, has a reduced crash, requires no external influence to use, and offers reduced mez protection.
Sound balanced to me, but I'd have to see the numbers.
EDIT - and unless the new build up SIGNIFICANTLY increases the Peacebringer's damage potential, I don't see why Light Form shouldn't be more powerful than eclipse, because right now Photon Seekers STILL aren't anywhere near balanced with extracted essences, which means that - unless the new build up is all that and a bag of chips - I-21 Peacebringers will STILL be nowhere near warshades in the damage department.
And Bill, let me just say that - even though I do have spreadsheets - I too will GREATLY MISS Light Form's Ball animation. This was one change I didn't like, and the buffs to light form only partially make up for it. -
Okay, I got some time and plugged AIB's numbers into the mitigation parts of the spreadsheet. Here's the link.
The salient numbers are as follows:
Human Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C: 80
Human Form survivable dps to E/N: 105
Human Form survivable dps to P/T: 52
Human Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C: 2906
Human Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 3808
Human Form Fatal Burst from P: 1885
Nova Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/P/T: 52
Nova Form survivable dps to E/N:58
Nova Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/P/T: 1885
Nova Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 2097
Dwarf Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/E/N: 241
Dwarf Form survivable dps to P/T: 91
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/E/N: 7844
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from P: 2969
For comparison, here's how it pans out with Light Form as is:
Human Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C: 88
Human Form survivable dps to E/N: 104
Human Form survivable dps to P/T: 40
Human Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C: 3196
Human Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 3876
Human Form Fatal Burst from P: 1449
Nova Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/P/T: 40
Nova Form survivable dps to E/N:47
Nova Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/P/T: 1449
Nova Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 1705
Dwarf Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/E/N: 167
Dwarf Form survivable dps to P/T: 69
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/E/N: 5430
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from P: 2254
And, because I can, here's how our Gold Standard SO Warshade fares against just one foe:
Human Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C: 99
Human Form survivable dps to E/N: 107
Human Form survivable dps to P/T: 68
Human Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C: 1772
Human Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 1917
Human Form Fatal Burst from P: 1224
Nova Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/P/T: 68
Nova Form survivable dps to E/N:82
Nova Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/P/T: 1224
Nova Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 1478
Dwarf Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/E/N: 345
Dwarf Form survivable dps to P/T: 119
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/E/N: 6476
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from P: 2225
So there you go, for better or for worse. AIB's suggestion - contrary to my initial fears - is NOT a nerf for the forms. It is in fact a slight nerf for human formers. It WILL make Peacebringers more survivable, but not as survivable as a warshade against a single foe. Single foes with high burst damage (AV's and whatnot) will still have a much easier time killing a warshade, due largely in part to the Peacebringer's Essence Boost. (Not taking into account +HP set bonuses and accolades on the WS, btw).
As always, someone go back and check my numbers, please. -
Quote:Originally Posted by AIB
I believe that your familiarity with OwtS led you to misread the recharge rate that I actually proposed.
There recharge is not the same.
There is a 5 minute difference.
OwtS = 360s recharge
Light Form (Resplendence) = 660s recharge
The +recovery and mez protection that Light Form currently gives should remain exactly as it is.
These two tier 9s are not as similar as you think...
OwtS =- 22.5% Resistance to S/L
- 11.25% Resistance to E/N/F/C
- 360 second recharge
- 120 second duration
- Max HP
- Mez Protection
- +Recovery
- 30% Resistance to S/L/E/N/F/C/T/Psi
- 660 second recharge
- 120 second duration
- Mez Protection
- +Recovery
Personally I find it fascinating.
Remember, the key thing to keep in mind with my proposal, as well as, the reason why it differs from so many other people's proposals is that I maintained the EXACT proportions that are present in Light Form's current in game numbers.
I merely rounded those numbers to make the proposal more palatable to the masses.
Yeah... see my post above. Sorry about that.
Let me ask you this question, however: If you've kept it in proportion by reducing the resistance with the recharge, then you're depending on the shields to keep the resistance close to the cap when it's up, right? So this would actually be a nerf for triformers who usually prefer to skip the shields.
On my triform build I didn't even take the shields, preferring instead to slot Light Form to the cap and fighting for any length of time in human form only when Light Form is up.
Having it carry over to the forms makes up for this to a large degree, however. I'll have to plug the numbers to see.
But I don't have the strength of will to do it right now (tier 9 pun... get it? get it?) Let me get some coffee and some lunch and I'll look at it at some point this afternoon. -
Quote:Crap. You know what I did? I looked right at that One with the Shield recharge and plugged that in by mistake. Phail.Originally Posted by Kyriani
To be fair his proposal doesnt = perma. 660 cooldown with 120 duration means at BEST with 400% recharge there'd still be 12 seconds of down time (vs the 20 seconds of downtime you could have with 1000 cooldown 180 duration.)
Stupid Joe. Drink some more coffee. -
Quote:Originally Posted by AIB
Light Form's (Resplendence) new and improved unenhanced values...
- 30% resistance to S/L/E/N/F/C/T/Psi
- 660 second recharge
- 120 second duration
I thank you in advance,
AIB
This seems a bit familiar to me... oh yeah. One with the Shield.
- 22.5% Resistance to S/L
- 11.25% Resistance to E/N/F/C
- 360 second recharge
- 120 second duration
- Max HP
- Mez Protection
- +Recovery
Did you deliberately exclude the +recovery and mez protection that Light Form currently gives from your proposal? If so it's a non-starter with me.
If not, you're looking at two very similar tier 9 powers, with one pretty significant difference.
One with the Shield can't be enhanced for recharge. One with the shield also offers no resistance to psionic and toxic. There's a reason for that.
I did a quick rundown of those numbers against the Peacebringer SO spreadsheet for human form, and with just SO's and Hasten you'll have only 16 seconds of downtime, making it easily double-stackable with minimal IO investment. Peacebringers running around with a perma-resistance cap power that requires nothing more than the mashing of a button is one thing, but to allow it to be made perma with so little investment is more than a little overpowered.
Warshades can make eclipse perma, but only with considerable IO investment, and even then they have to have enemies to use it. You're talking about handing Peacebringers perma capped resistance for no cost whatsoever.
Much as I'd giggle with sadistic glee if I had it, I don't see it happening. -
Quote:It's not so much that I'm angling for symmetry between the two archetypes as it is me being pragmatic. It would be easier to justify changing one power and accomplish the same thing as the system overhaul a power siphon clone would be. And since it would only be changing one power, then the odds of getting other issues addressed would be greater. Among other things, I'd like to see instantaneous (or at least much shorter) shape shift animations and I'd like to see Light Form addressed. All that has a greater chance of happening if the magnitude of the other changes they make is along the lines of fixing photon seekers, vise changing every power to add a damage buff and a damage debuff effect.Originally Posted by Redlynne
Joe, I have a lot of respect for you and your work, but I think we're looking at this issue from perpendicular angles.
You're assuming (I assume...) that PB-v-WS needs to be balanced against each other both with and without pets involved. I'm not making that assumption. Instead, I'm looking at the With-and-Without states of damage output for PBs and WSs with respect to pets, and thinking ... why shouldn't the PB do "more damage" without pets than a WS, while a WS with pets can do more damage than a PB? The key point here is that I'm not looking for "parity" (per se) between PBs and WSs in the Have vs Have Not equations.
What you see as a "Bug" in porting over Power Siphon to PBs, I see as a "Feature" in its favor. The mechanics of Power Siphon are far more suited to the "self-reliant" nature of the PB than the "ups and downs" of being reliant on hostiles (both dead and alive) like the WS is. I see the numbers that you've provided as being a supporting argument in favor of the notion that a ported Power Siphon would be a good fit for PBs, in lieu of Build Up. I see it as further defining (and supporting) the notion that PBs and WSs fulfill different niche roles and are able to achieve similar results by radically different means. By that I mean that a WS is strong(er) against large groups, while the PB is better suited to deal with the tough few (ie. AVs). I see the two Kheldian archetypes as being counterbalanced against each other, rather than being mirror images. Where one is strong, the other is weak ... and vice versa ... *roughly* speaking in terms of situationals and flow of combat.
That being said, if they did want to do something different with build up that made it more of a power siphon clone - or a rage clone, or a fiery embrace clone, or what-have-you - and they're still willing to address those other issues, then I sure wouldn't say no.
I came off harsher than I intended in my response above. Bluntness is in my nature, and when I'm busy with other things as well as posting it tends to come across in my posts. I apologize if you were offended. -
Quote:Point could also be made that a blaster's build up and aim are not always recharged, and thus not perpetual damage. If fluffies die, to me it's the same thing. The difference is that with enough recharge and a little skill fluffies can be replaced almost right after they die. I've yet to see build up made perma. (I suspect it's possible to at least come very close, but at a much higher investment in IO's.)Originally Posted by PC_guy
it's not that simple though, there is nothing more frustrating with my WS than extracted essences dying. if the extracted essences functioned like PA or VS then i'd be in complete agreement, but the fact that they can take damage and their HP is so low makes them alot less awesome IMO.
Agreed. If they were going to intend dwarf form to be our mez protection then they should have fixed the confirmed bug that interrupted the transformation a LOOOOONG time ago.Quote:for me, this is the same as extracted essence, if it functioned just a little differently, or in this case, if dwarf actually functioned to what one could argue is how it was designed to work with the mez function then the point would be more substantial.
And put me down as /signed for shorter - hell, instantaneous - shapeshifting animations. -
Quote:Can a blaster summon enough pets to double it's damage? With nothing more than SO's and hasten, a warshade can have two extracted essences out blasting right along beside him, boosting his damage by - you guessed it - 100% WITHOUT having to worry about the damage cap at all. So no, a blaster cannot do 100% more damage than a warshade's nova.Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Yeah but how do those numbers relate to the damage cap? Maybe Nova's scales are higher than a blaster, but the blaster can also do 100% more damage than Nova form. It can also run toggles for survivability, use acrobatics for mez protection, and have more than 4 attacks.
Can a blaster cap its resistances with a single power? Show me one single power in the blaster secondaries that give him capped resistances. What is the blaster resistance cap, anyway? Is it 85% to all damage? I don't know, tbh, but even so a blaster can't reach it on his own. A warshade can.
Can a blaster increase its hit points and have mez protection at will? Never mind the fact that those hit points can likely be added to a dwarf with capped resistances.
Show me a blaster with anywhere NEAR the mitigation that Kheldians get. About all they get is the ability to fire three tier one powers when mezzed. Counting Dwarf form, Kheldians get four powers, and they do more damage with them.
I'm sorry, but while I'll stand up and shout to the heavens that Peacebringers need to be brought on par with Warshades, you're never going to convince me that Kheldians in general are hurting where damage is concerned. What damage they don't get is offset by the mitigation they do get.
Like PC Guy said, individual powers might need tweaks to recharge, activation, or even damage. But sweeping changes to damage scalars or even using the damage scalars to justify overpowering an already overpowered power like eclipse isn't going to happen. -
Quote:Wait, what? According to the same link you gave a few posts up, human form's melee damage scale is .85 and the ranged scale is .8. The Dwarf damage scale is 1.0 and the Nova damage scale is 1.2.Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
It would compensate for our damage scales being far below other damage dealing AT's, and having the same damage cap as defenders (wtf?) in my opinion.
For comparison, a BLASTER's ranged damage scale is 1.125, so Nova's is higher than a blaster's. A BRUTE's melee damage scale is .75.
In fact, at 1.0, a dwarf's melee damage scale is tied with VEAT's, Stalkers and Blasters. It is, in fact inferior only to the Dominators' 1.05 modifier and the Scrappers' 1.125 modifier.
Nova's ranged modifer is the highest on that chart.
Even Human Form's ranged modifiers are above EVERYONE execpt VEAT's, Dominators and Blasters.
So the exact link you gave just a few posts up disproves your own assertion that our damage scales being far below the other damage dealing archetypes.
Because we're not far below. At all. In fact we're close to the top, if you look at the scales.
And what you didn't mention was that our other scalars - you know, the mez, buff and debuff scalars you can find by clicking on the link to Iakona's Power Standardization guide (at the bottom of the page) - are right at or just above the middle of ALL the archetypes, whereas our fellow damage dealers suffer with abysmal scalars in those areas.
So yeah -the defender damage cap serves to help keep us right near the middle in terms of maximum potential damage, but the damage scales are high enough to ensure that we don't have to work that hard to get there.
Never mind the fact that Warshades get the vast majority of their damage from Extracted Essences, which follow the pet scalar and - as pets - are not subject to our damage cap. Changing the damage cap would ONLY change the potential damage of powers a warshade actually personally does damage with.
And you can have your resistance debuff in eclipse just as soon as Peacebringers are brought up to par. Asking for buffs to Warshades when Peacebringers are lagging so far behind is just insulting imho.