Skysaurus

I think being vocal about what players want for CoV is a very important thing. It lets the Devs know where they ought to be focusing their efforts. For example, read this post from Ex Libris regarding the wishes of the PVP community. People who are vocal about CoV should be taking notes there about how to communicate with the Devs. Be persistent, be realistic, avoid bias or malice, etc.

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Maybe the devs can tell us why they hate COV?

or..

Maybe they don't hate it, but are incompetent nincompoops?

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Is it just me or does this thread seem to repeat itself every few days?

Perhaps I should bow out of the thread. We've gone over many things that could be done to help CoV... in some cases more than once. Our voice has been heard, methinks.

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Thing is, Recluse WAS allied to the Rikti, untill they ATTACKED HIS ISLES.

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And like any super-powerful villain, he immediately ran inside his tower and locked the door, and no one's heard from him since.

Seriously, what does he think about the fact that his "Destined Ones" are running off to join the Vanguard and play around in Paragon City?

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You'd have to ask him directly.

Which means that unless this is actually addressed in-storyline, there's no reason to even care.

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No? Pretty much everything else that villains do has Arachnos sticking their nose in it... to suddenly take that element out without explanation is a bit strange. Of course, Freedom Corps doesn't say much about the invasion either, but for heroes it's sort of expected that they're going to go help save the world.

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Thing is, Recluse WAS allied to the Rikti, untill they ATTACKED HIS ISLES.

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And like any super-powerful villain, he immediately ran inside his tower and locked the door, and no one's heard from him since.

Seriously, what does he think about the fact that his "Destined Ones" are running off to join the Vanguard and play around in Paragon City?

Personally, I think it would make a ton of sense if, when I10 hit, Kuhr'rekt suddenly said "So long, suckers!" and teleported right out of Grandville. After all, Hro'Dtohz's plans involve burning the whole planet and everything on it down to ashes. Any smart Rikti wouldn't be hanging around like that.

Just for lulz...

Why needy villains are true to the source material.

I like where things are going! In the spirit of the moment, I'm going to make a post where I don't disagree with someone else. Instead, I'll post some points I've been thinking about, regarding what beneficial things CoV did get over the past year.

-Issue 9 and villain Hamidon: Villain players had been requesting access to Hamidon since Issue 7. In Issue 9, they got it. Popularity of the redesigned raid experience aside, it proved that heroes aren't the only ones who have had requests granted by the Devs.

-Issue 10 and the Rikti War Zone: While it's gotten a bad rep in this thread so far, Issue 10 actually brought some very useful things to the villain experience. Namely:
<ul type="square"> [*]A new hunting ground for level 50 characters, and a new source of repeatable missions [*]An alternative to Grandville (aka Lagville) for villains in the 40-50 range [*]The ability to play your high level villain with your hero-side friends who might not have a high level villain of their own (This also allows a villain character to have a better chance at finding a team even on servers where red-side populations are anemic)[*]The LGTF has been bugged for long enough to allow characters from 35-50 to join instead of the intended 45-50 range, that it might as well be a feature. That means that, provided you have someone high enough to lackey to, the TF/SF hole in the 40-45 range for villains has been patched.[/list]While I won't deny the storyline aspect could've been implemented a little better for the villain perspective, I think that Issue 10 benefited villains quite a lot.

-Issue 11 and Ouroboros: As I mentioned a lot earlier in the thread, Flashback had a specific benefit for villains because of unlockable contacts. If your villain missed one of these because you didn't know they were there or you couldn't meet the requirements before outleveling them, Flashback granted you another chance to access them. Oh, and this time around, villains got mission text that actually fit them.

So, even though heroes and villains came out pretty even on stuff last year, there were some ways in which villains actually benefited more from the new stuff. Sure, there's still a content gap. But I'm fairly confident that this year, when the effects of the NCSoft merger start to be felt in the updates, that villain side will be seeing some of the attention it needs.

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Woodsman’s Task Force (the “Eden Trial”) and the Maren MacGregor Task Force (aka the “Sewer Trial”) now have choice tables upon completion. Choice can be a Task Force recipe (i.e. a recipe from the Task Force pool), or the Multi-aspect Enhancement reward that these missions have normally given. Choosing the recipe counts as your “once every three hours” Task Force recipe reward for that character.


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Something else Red Side doesn't have access to. :P

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They're nothing to write home about, believe me.

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but the point is, blue side CAN write home about them. Red Side just gets to look at something else blue side has that it doesn't.

Red side is like a poor kid whose best friend is rich. Sure his parents try, but well, they just can't compete. and blue side just has way more toys.

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Those things are just fluff. Blue side has a lot of fluff. It also has some actually fun things, too. I think that the experience of running an Eden trial is a lot more fun than the enhancement you get afterwards. The enhancement is pretty and shiny but is weaker than an SO (unlike Hami-Os) and has none of the benefits that you could get from multi-aspect IOs (opportunity for set bonuses and inability to outlevel).

I, personally, would rather see CoV get solid, fun content before it gets "fluff."

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Woodsman’s Task Force (the “Eden Trial”) and the Maren MacGregor Task Force (aka the “Sewer Trial”) now have choice tables upon completion. Choice can be a Task Force recipe (i.e. a recipe from the Task Force pool), or the Multi-aspect Enhancement reward that these missions have normally given. Choosing the recipe counts as your “once every three hours” Task Force recipe reward for that character.


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Something else Red Side doesn't have access to. :P

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They're nothing to write home about, believe me.

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i9 was inventions, both sides have access to that and the same chance of any recipe dropping.

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Villains have almost no access to Pool D (Trial) drops. We have *ONE* trial, and it is almost never run.

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Hero-side, Eden Trial and Abandoned Sewers Trial give out Task Force pool drops instead of Trial pool drops. Cavern of Transcendence's drops are buggy, so that leaves us with the respec trial and Hamidon for Pool D recipes. And that's exactly the same as what villains have.

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Then I guess the people I know who run the Eden Trial for the Trial pool drops are liars? You're the first person I've seen say that it gives TF drops.

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Paragon Wiki to the rescue!

As per the patch notes from May 24, 2007:
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Woodsman’s Task Force (the “Eden Trial”) and the Maren MacGregor Task Force (aka the “Sewer Trial”) now have choice tables upon completion. Choice can be a Task Force recipe (i.e. a recipe from the Task Force pool), or the Multi-aspect Enhancement reward that these missions have normally given. Choosing the recipe counts as your “once every three hours” Task Force recipe reward for that character.

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As I've stated numerous times, it's the same game, so putting in content anywhere in it is content for everybody, not just a few people.

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That logic doesn't really work when you're talking to a sub-group of players who intentionally limit their focus to one side of the game. Otherwise I could just say "Roll a hero, and you've got lots of new content to play!"

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i9 was inventions, both sides have access to that and the same chance of any recipe dropping.

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Villains have almost no access to Pool D (Trial) drops. We have *ONE* trial, and it is almost never run.

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Hero-side, Eden Trial and Abandoned Sewers Trial give out Task Force pool drops instead of Trial pool drops. Cavern of Transcendence's drops are buggy, so that leaves us with the respec trial and Hamidon for Pool D recipes. And that's exactly the same as what villains have.

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You've demonstrated that you quite frankly don't know what you're talking about.

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Well, if you really want each side to have unique features, then I suppose we can count "Having more content than villain-side" as one of CoH's unique features.

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And having "lol nobody plays Villains 'cause they don't get [censored]" being one of CoV?

If you really do play both sides, you probably play Heroes more. I completely understand you, since, y'know, people [censored] log on over there.

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Chill. I was just responding to NancY's jibe with a jibe of my own. Supposed to be a joke, hence the " "

I'd like to take a minute to clarify my purpose here in this thread. It's getting lost in all the back-and-forth so I want to make sure that everyone knows where I stand.

My purpose: to provide a reasonable, rational, alternate explanation for the situation presented by the OP, namely "the devs hate COV."

I don't hate CoV; while I have some criticisms, I still enjoyed it enough to have two level 50 villains in my alt roster. (Neither were PL'ed, either.) And I don't think the Devs hate CoV either. If Matt Miller could wiggle his nose and have all the new content CoV could use suddenly pop into existence, I'm sure he would do it. But that's not the reality of the situation. Prior to merging with NCSoft, Cryptic just didn't have the resources to make everything happen the way it should have, so some things, like Villain EATs, ending up on the metaphorical cutting room floor.

It's not really reassuring, since in the end CoV is still lagging behind CoH in terms of content and red side players are upset about that, but at least with the NCSoft merger we can hopefully look forward to seeing things improve for villains in the Rogue Isles.

So what can you, a concerned villain player, do in the meantime? Well, I would suggest borrowing an idea from the PVP community and creating a "Villain's Wishlist" of things you'd like to see for the red-side in future updates.

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I don't need a crystal ball to know which side of the fence YOU play on, do I....?

You will maintain this attitude as long as the developers give your interests the lion's share of their attention.

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I play both sides. And you are correct, the Devs have been giving my interests the lion's share of their attention!

Well, if you really want each side to have unique features, then I suppose we can count "Having more content than villain-side" as one of CoH's unique features.

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The devs can't "force" you to play one side or the other just because there's a smidgen of content there that you think you'll enjoy. Only you can do that to yourself. And frankly, the less uniqueness to each side, the worse both sides become IMO. If the only difference between the two sides becomes textures and mission text, what is the point of having two different sides, really?

And no, I don't consider being able to fight Statesman in and of itself to be "unique content" It plays more or less the same way any other AV/Hero encounter does (though Statesman *is* a cheap *******, what with that lightning bolt...)

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Well, I'm just going to be stubborn on that point, because I really see it as poorly justified to try and maintain an illusion of "uniqueness" among the games when they use the same mechanics. The only thing that's really different is the way the different ATs play.

In my opinion, if you come up with something that's fun to do, it should be given to everyone, regardless of what side they play on. That's been the Devs' mission from day one - make the game fun to play.

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I really fail to see why playing "keep away the good stuff from the other side" is a good idea.

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The assumption is that, if you take all of the things CoV has that are considered better and grant them to CoH as well, then the population will shift even more dramatically in CoH's favor and leave primary villain players even harder up (both for seeking groups, and in the "bigger side gets more dev attention" argument). And, while it is only an assumption, I can't say with confidence that it is without merit.

This becomes especially true if nothing flows CoH -&gt; CoV in return. Of course, two much flowing in both directions just homogenizes both sides, and personally I don't think thats a particularly good thing either.

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In a recent discussion about the popularity (or lack thereof) of Hamidon raiding, BAB posted something to the effect that using rewards to get people to play through something they don't really enjoy playing through is not good game design.

By that same logic, making someone play as a villain to experience something fun is not good game design, especially when using it specifically as a carrot to get people to play villain side is your only justification. If someone doesn't want to play a villain just to experience X, why force them when you can allow their hero to experience Y, which is the equivalent of X?

Now, I think that some fun things should remain seperate, as long as they're specific to the side of the game they're on. You think it's fun to beat up Statesman in the game? Going to have to play a villain to do that. Want to smash up Paragon City instead of protect it? Again, have to be a villain.

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Or maybe you didn't figure out that if people get dissatisfied with CoH and leave, that CoV will lose people too, and that bodes ill for both games?

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Only if the people that leave actually play both games and not just heroes. Some people do only play villains.

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And they are a minority. Outnumbered by those who play both sides.

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Sure. Go ahead. Continue to believe that no viewpoint but your own is valid. You're right and there's no possibility you could, maybe, be wrong. After 30 pages of stubbornly hashing the same issues over and over again, you've earned the right.

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Ditto. But it's not actually about being right or wrong, it's about personal opinion of which everyone is entitled. If you don't agree you really don't need to be in the thread at all because you aren't going to convince anyone to change their mind.

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But there are opinions, and then there are facts. It's a fact that the Devs lacked the resources to do everything they wanted to do with every issue last year. I can remember Positron posting about how they would start planning each issue with a big list of things they'd like to do, then slowly narrow it down to the stuff they could actually cram into the issue and still get it out on schedule. In a situation like that, does it not make good business sense to focus your limited efforts on producing a product that's going to please the greatest amount of your customers?


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Instead of keeping up the momentum in order to draw players to it they gave almost all of its unique features to the blue side too. If it was up to some people here the blue side would have everything the red side does so that they would never have to play an evil villain at all.

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I really fail to see why playing "keep away the good stuff from the other side" is a good idea.

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Now, the devs barely upkeep CoV, not keep it innovative. Rather than merge the two worlds and keep adding cross content I'd rather they break the two apart and run them as separate games with separate dev teams. Charge a separate subscription fee. At least that way CoV might get the attention it needs and deserves.

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Or maybe the aforementioned "both sides" players might decide they'd like to save $15 a month and drop CoV, then the whole thing crashes and burns. You never know.

But I don't think that will happen any more than I think the games will be merged, so it's kind of moot.

I believe I pointed out why your logic was what failed - you posted:
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"Heroes have more players so they need more content then Heroes will get more players so that they'll need more content.."

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Did you miss where I pointed out that CoH isn't the only thing getting more content? Or maybe you didn't figure out that if people get dissatisfied with CoH and leave, that CoV will lose people too, and that bodes ill for both games? All you can focus is on "CoV needs more villain-specific content." And when it doesn't get that... clearly, it MUST be because the Devs hate villains!

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And pardon me if I'm going to believe what I see from the devs over some Joe Random on the forums. Their intentions are obvious by their updates.

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Sure. Go ahead. Continue to believe that no viewpoint but your own is valid. You're right and there's no possibility you could, maybe, be wrong. After 30 pages of stubbornly hashing the same issues over and over again, you've earned the right.

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City of Heroes CAME first. That's largely why it's got so much content ahead of CoV. And I already talked about why CoV hasn't gotten specific content added in the past year.

There are honest and fair-minded reasons why CoV hasn't received a whole lot of specific attention in the past year - but sadly, all you can see - all you WANT to see - is "CoV didn't get stuff I wanted, therefore, DEVS HATE VILLAINS!"

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There's been more than 2 years to balance it out. They haven't even TRIED. They've made zero effort. That *IS* a clear-cut bias.

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They weren't going to balance it out on the low budget they had to work with. To do that, they would have had to spend an issue or two neglecting hero-side. Not a smart move to please a minority of the players at the expense of the majority of players. So instead, they decided to make the content a 50/50 split. Everybody got new stuff to play with.

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Sorry, that's still ignorance.

"Heroes have more players so they need more content then Heroes will get more players so that they'll need more content.." This inane circular logic only guarantees the doom of CoV. It is only stupidity that would rely on it.

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No, it's ignorance that thinks that CoV is being ignored to give CoH more content. Post-I8, they've been getting the same, or similar, stuff. If villain-side were truly getting ignored, they wouldn't have gotten their own Hamidon.

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Rikti aren't a greater threat.

No matter how they tried to play it up in the story, the Rikti are JUST Rikti. It's ONLY an alien invading force. Bend on destroying the world, or all humanity on it, is irrelevant. As I've said before, I have chars who have the same background. WHY would they EVER side with the humans AGAINST a force that's doing the exact same thing they want to see happen?

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As it's been said many times already... just because the content is not content you like, doesn't nullify the fact that it is content. Maybe it doesn't fit your concepts, but maybe it does for other people. If you don't like it that much, don't do it, and keep waiting for them to update with something that does strike your fancy. Better yet, you could suggest what they could add in future updates. Better than beating a dead horse over and over again.

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epic ATs

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I'll give you that one, along with the little info booths (though, isn't there one in RV? Or maybe in the instanced Mayhem missions? I forget, it's been a while). The rest, to me, fall under my blanket classification of "more content in general."

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The devs have not even ATTEMPTED to make up the difference in the past two years. Everything added to the game since I8 has been dual sided. IE, City of HEROES comes first. Villains aren't thought about except to give them access to what you're adding. Nothing's been added FOR them.

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City of Heroes CAME first. That's largely why it's got so much content ahead of CoV. And I already talked about why CoV hasn't gotten specific content added in the past year.

There are honest and fair-minded reasons why CoV hasn't received a whole lot of specific attention in the past year - but sadly, all you can see - all you WANT to see - is "CoV didn't get stuff I wanted, therefore, DEVS HATE VILLAINS!"

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It wouldn't work here, true, but imagine this game if we could make our own decisions about whether our Super (or Meta, or just Human) was good, evil, or amoral. A balance nightmare to be sure, but intriguing.

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That's where a pen and paper RPG would have been extremely useful... but alas... Eden Studios failed to deliver. However, that's a topic for another thread.

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I firmly believe the devs overlook the Villain side of the game. I don't think they necessarily hate it, I just think they don't take it into consideration that often. Hell, they won't even acknowledge that it IS a separate entity. They treat it like just another Issue added to CoH, therefore they don't need to expand on it anymore. I don't think they're doing this becuase they don't like Villains, I think they are just so damned zoned in on City of HEROES that Villains just gets overlooked.

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Given that they're only selling this game as a bundle now, I think the real title of the game is "City of Heroes and City of Villains: Good versus Evil" or, as the forum likes to shorten it, City of X/CoX. CoH and CoV are two sides of the same game, and no matter how often I get disagreed with, I'll keep saying it.

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As a friend of mine is fond of saying: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." In this case, I think "ignorance" is more appropriate, however.


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Another thing I'm getting tired of repeating myself on - it's not malice, stupidity, or ignorance that has caused CoV to be neglected, content-wise, for so long. It's been a simple lack of time, effort, and resources to devote to giving all aspects of the game the same amount of attention, so they instead concentrated their efforts on stuff that would provide the largest benefit to the playerbase in general. Villain side didn't get specific improvements, and neither did PVP, base raids, or older hero side content like the Abandoned Sewers Trial.

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I sincerely hope you are right. Silver and Golden age, the lines between good and evil are clearly drawn. But look at the last few additions of the game. They've been trying to erase that line already. It's a bad trend. "Villains" already CAN go rescue a bunch of innocents then turn around and rob a bank. Co-op RWZ for the lose.

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The basic premise of co-op play I don't think was terribly a bad idea, since classic comics have had moments where good guys and bad guys have called a temporary truce to unite against a greater threat. The implementation was a bit clumsy in that everyone, hero or villain, was given the same set of contacts and missions that had a strong hero-ish flavor, but the basic idea wasn't a bad one, IMO.

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The games, BOTH of them, need new content unique to each side. This includes play styles and mission types that the other does not have. Giving Heroes Safeguard missions was one of the biggest mistakes the devs have made. Mayhem missions were about the only thing in the game that let villains actually feel like villains. Turning around and giving a half-[censored] version to Heroes when Villains STILL are lacking in many of the basic features Heroes have was a bad precedent, which they've continued to uphold.

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What basic features are villains lacking that heroes have? As I see it, both sides share:
-Inventions and Markets
-Mayhems/Safeguards
-LRSF/STF
-Ouroboros/Flashback
-Arenas and PVP zones
-Bases
-Hamidon and Rikti Mothership raids
-Pocket D
-Probably some other things I'm forgetting

The thing that villains lack is just more content. More zones, more missions, more contacts, more strike forces.

Also, I disagree that giving heroes safeguards was a mistake. It was a smart move.

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No, it's just a BAD IDEA all around to fully combine the games. Having unique content in each game is a good thing, it's more reason to actually play them, and despite how many people refuse to accept it (devs included) they are different games, they play differently, they should BE different. Heroes != Villains. It's a damn shame the devs can't see past the "hero" side of things.

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Careful there... that sounds dangerously like the "Devs hate villains!" mindset. I really doubt they would ever consider merging the PVE sides of the game because it would pretty much make the classifications of "hero" and "villain" meaningless. If you can save a bunch of innocent civilians one moment, then rob a bank the next, what the heck are you? No, in the world of silver-age comics upon which this game was primarily based, good guys did the good deeds and bad guys did the bad deeds.

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The Stalker "fix" feels Hella Nerfish.

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Well, it's supposed to be a fix nevertheless. It just needs some testing before they get it right.