SkunkWerks

Let me just take a moment to say that, for no damn good reason at all, CCG's irritate me.

But I suppose this was inevitable.

Carry on.

Hunt out Statesman's earlier post, the word "unfun" becomes associated with this issue there. Not saying I necessarily agree with the poster you're refuting, but you might want to know this.

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And on that matter, is reseting the wolf mission an exploit?

I seem to remember a red name in beta responding to this question. Is resetting a mission and repeating it an exploit? The answer was......No. It was even encouraged as a way to avoid street hunting and kill stealing.

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Well, this is why, again, I prefer to define a PLer by intention rather than by action- the action's the symptom, not the cause.

The cause is a drive to poke at something to find it's weak points, then explot that to the greatest advantage. It's a mentality common to hackers. This timer thing and other curbing attempts are seen as a challenge.

And so the game of...

...exploit
countermeasure
circumvention
countermeasure
circumvention...

...will continue. People suggesting here that PLer's be given a reason not to PL are getting close to the point, and yet missing its most crucial feature: PLer's want the thrill of besting the system, and not necessarily that AV they happen to be fighting.

What it really comes down to is how these people choose to play, and frankly since the game has little to offer these folks beyond the potential for "cheating" (for lack of a better word) at it, there's not much that States here can offer to discourage them by way of encouraging them to do something else that is "fun".

So you stick a timer on the wolf mission instead... see my earlier post to Statesman, but I'll also sum it up here:

The real important thing is, in dealing with this minority in the population deemed to be a problem, are you harming the "fun" of the other (majority) of the players?

Since he and the other developers will be laying down circumventions like this one for the forseeable duration of this MMO, I think this is the golden rule to proceed by.

And right now it's a bit early to tell what the answer to that question is, I think. What you're seeing right now is some dire-prognostications in absence of any large longitudinal body of observation, and a whole lot of reactionary preemptive response.

I say give it a few weeks, myself. It's the only way to know.

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SkunkWerks7: The flaw in this reasoning is that the whole philsophy of PLing is that the player doing it cares little for anyhting else but levels.

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This isn't quite true either. In fact my latest alt is a controller that I PL'ed through the lower content (and amazingly enough not a single wolf was invovled ) for the specific purpose of exploring the newly added Striga Isle content.

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I think I may have said this before, but I consider the die-hard PLer to be a mindset rather than determined by it's symptoms: the locating of potential exploits, determining the most efficient way to make use of them, and then, of course, implementing that in a repeatable fashion.

And all to gain levels of course. If you're PLing to get to a specific spot to experience content, in my mind, it doesn't mkae you much of a diehard PLer.

But they exist and believe me, no content-carrot is going to dissuade them from doing what they do- because, in essence, they don't give a damn about content in the first place or they wouldn't be incessantly finding exploits and figuring out how to use them to towards the greatest XP payoff.

For the die hard PLer, the whole act of...

1) finding a suitably repeatble and high-reward exploit
2) finding a way to use that exploit most efficiently
3) using that exploit to the best advantage, then repeating the process again...

...is the thrill of playing for these folks. You're using it as a tool to achieve an end. For the real PLer, the act itself is the end.

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If there was something to do that was special and fun at certain levels, and only those levels it would slow down PLing...

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The flaw in this reasoning is that the whole philsophy of PLing is that the player doing it cares little for anyhting else but levels. Thus the prospective PLer will bypass "special and fun somethings to do" at any level.

Though I think any idea to add more 'special and fun things to do' is admirable and I like it, in fact, I doubt this would curb PLing in any way. This is the way they like to play, you're not gonna change that by adding stuff they already don't care about.

States, never really addressed ya before, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and impart to ya a rule of mine, you may take it for what it's worth (and believe me I do understand that you're doing what you can here, and in my opinion you're doing an admirable job of it, still...):

Any time you attempt to save people from their own stupidity (usually by creating some sort of directive or law) you are invariably engaging in a losing battle. Human stupidity will inevitably win out in the end.

As granted "stupidity" is as subjective as the terms "fun" and "unfun", swap the words out if you like, the meaning is the same: People will do as they wish, regardless.

Seat belt laws, drug laws, prohibilition... I guess it's hard for people to imagine this country without 'em, but at the same time they are severely imperfect ways that can never hope to "solve" the problem they were forged to combat.

In this particular case, the target group is "those who would bypass parts of the game they might (key word is 'might' here) otherwise find fun", and they are in a relative minority, I think, not just for reasons of philosophy, but often just for time constraints, or an extreme distaste for doing the same thing over and over and over again, regardless of the reward.

The most important thing to remember here, I believe is, just how much energy you expend addressing a problem with this minority, and more importantly: in so doing, are you endangering the "fun" of the rest of the players?

I suppose time will tell the outcome with this timer thing on the wolf mission.

No, not really, I fail to see how one can employ tactics without communications. Particularly when you omit the basics, like "Ready?" "Attack" and such. I've been in teams like this, gave 'em a chance a few times, sorry to report they all stunk.

In one instance I had to drop a team because the leader didn't speak English. I felt bad, since it was no fault of his own, but really, if there's no basis for communication, there's no basis for a team. This is why they made that Team Channel thingy, you know?

But I'll take your word for it in this special case of yours of course.

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And if you shifting the blame to my personal capabilities in joining a team, maybe you can be the one to make the question sheet i should be giving each team member before i start (question example: What is your favorite type of power in CoH and why? minimum 3 pages or quit)

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Oh, why look! It's argumentum ad absurdam... how apt for this thread.

Personally I feel you're shifting the blame for your poor teaming habits on an event which, while flawed, was far from the debacle you describe it as. But there you go, a matter of perception perhaps....

...Or is it? I mean, come on, when ten minutes pass and the team leader hasn't said a word (and you know it's not because he's AFK) I think that's a pretty fair indication there's a problem right there, no questionaire required.

On the larger issue, I'm gonna say somehing funny: What precisely is the worst thing that can happen to you in a bad team (griefing aside) even one that happens to be filled with the WL n00bs you seem to feel are so prominent now?

You will (OMG!!) collect Debt? Dear lord, it's not the worst thing in the world! Save me from the debt!

Yeah, so there ya go, States responded, acknowledged that they made errors (whihc I don't think any of us here felt that errors weren't made, but disagreed on the severity), and (I'm happy to say) will continue to host events like this...

...which carries the implication that they will also be flawed events, by the way...

[deep breath]

Ok, I'm ready for the next round of whining when Easter hits.

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Bottom line is this:

We can piss and moan about them, or we can teach them to play the game.

Which do you think will do you more good in six months when you're looking for a team?

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Well, most people, if given a choice between taking responsibility for their own situation- and therefore making it better- will naturtally choose to complain endlessly and find other parties (WL n00bs and the Devs who apparenrly love them or something) to blame their current situation on instead.

"Oh NOES! Not the bottom line! The bottom line puts an end to my whinefes- er, debate! And then I'll have to go back to coping with life instead of mewling about it, oh the horror!"

Kudos for trying, though. And I agree wholeheartedly.

Heh, well thanks.

What kills me is that this whole "WL phenomenon" will continue to be 'the cause of all things wrong with the CoH playerbase' well beyond the time when its actual impact has died away...

...until the next PLing exploit either goes live or gets discovered. Someone's always gonna get cheesed that they didn't figure it out first.

Sorry, not gonna read all that. Yes, I kow, WL n00bs are annoying, still they are- however unfortunately- now a fact of existance on CoH for the next few months perhaps till the ones that are inclined to learn the game do, and the ones that aren't leave the game altogether or roll new characters and play them up "proper"...

Do you have to watch who you team with? Yes. But then again you had to before the Winter Lord thingy too, so wah.

The devs don't owe any of us an apology for providing us an extra event above and beyond the release of I3. Yes, it may have been a bit botched up, but rush jobs often are. Would you prefer we had no seasonal events from now on?

So, in conclusion:

Deal.


Thank you.

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Two- he was pretty quiet, no way of knowing

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Er, this is just me, but when I get a mute team leader, the team isn't long for my character. In short, I split. Didn't even need to play since the beta to figure that one out.

At the very least a team leader that says little isn't communicating terribly well, and communication is very necessary for a team to work well. As for this whole Winter Lord fandango, I'm with the other folks: bad players existed before this, as have influxes of bad players:

1) If you think it takes one sketchy event to ruin the entire player base of an MMO, you're sadly deluded.

2) Those that are inclined to play well will learn, those that aren't, won't. This was true before the Winter Lord event and it's still true now, What has changed?

You don't need an apology.... what you need is a cookie. Will someone please get this guy a cookie?

Ignore doesn't necessarily mean anything here on the forums, except that the person doing the ignoring might be choosing not to listen as well as utilizing the board code to make sure there's no avenue by which it might occur.

I don't think that CoH would actively support (unmitigated) intolerance for the sake of itself after all... Let's just call it a nice option for keeping the peace. And not all forms of intolerance are an evil anyway, I do it all the time with players in-game blitzing me with tells begging for PLing, despite the fact that I've already said "no," and I quite like that I have that option avaiable to me.

Go on, tell me you wouldn't do the same thing?

As a recourse to a situation that doesn't seem inclined to improve any, it's an imperfect, but very viable solution. Which means I must have gotten the notion that this particular situation was not beyond hope.

...nor am I the sort of person to rule out possibilities simply because I don't care for their implications. Though I still don't agree with you, I can't argue with the way it was put.

I actually would like to see more of these "anime-inspired" options before passing judgment on it myself. I don't despise anime- in fact, I think that the Japanese approach to anime is (or perhaps "was") a refreshing approach to animation in general: the notion that a cartoon need not be only for children and that animation is equally as good at dealing with more mature themes appeals to me.

What I do disllike is the "fad" of anime that's grown up in the last decade or so. I also despise the fact that much of what it's producing is far from the ideal of "animation to be taken seriously as an artform and a venerable storytelling medium". However, as a person who grew up in a world where "Anime" shows were a relatively new thing- something you could only find about five shows worth of and then only on cable (also a rarity then), I can see this from perhaps a more unbiased perspective.

If I had a feeling about what's going to happen with these "anime-inspired" costume elements, it's going to be that we're going to see things that are just that: inspired by anime, but perhaps are neutral enough to be used effectively in any costume.

At any rate, I see no cause for alarm yet.

First steps always are tentative.

As for an entire update based off of the character creation system- by which I can assume we are discussing solely the visual aspects of said system- I think you may have proposed something in here that will invariably have other people saying precisely what you're saying about I4 already:

"What, an update with NO useful features?!"

While I certainly like the Character creation system, and, like yourself, believe there's room for improvement, there are other people who could honestly give a hoot about it. They want to play, and they will be the people in here making this particular protestation.

...which is why each update contains a mix of things, rather than focusing on only one specific thing. And this is also why the improvement of the system will invariably be taken in small steps. As to whether this was the best choice for a first step I suppose is up for grabs. It is a step, however.

And as to the matter of taking it to an outstanding state, well, in any system there' always bound to be room for improvement. This is far from any exception. And even with an update focusing solely on this one issue, you'd still have improvements to make. I don't think this is a reason not to have improvements, certainly. INdeed, I'd like to see some, and could work up my own list, but a system with no room for improvement is pie in the sky, really.


...and yes, I took you off ignore. Call that whatever you wish. Let's just say I'm inclined to listen again.

If it wasn't premature you couldn't smugly claim precognitive knowledge of what is undoubtedly going to happen when it releases...

And really I'd love to have a flashback to all the pre-I3 apocalyptic talk and dire prognostications, just to see how much of it was really justified.

I guess such threads are just inevitable.

33 views and no replies?! Wow, this must be one of those "Congrats Devs, you're doing a pretty good job," posts instead of one of those "OMG I4 is going to have teh ebil PvP and cr4p japanime costume stuf in it!" ones...

All told, good point. I just wonder how much sanity will reign in this chat, assuming the forum demographic on I4 commentary holds true... which I hope it doesn't.

Wow, talk about your masochistic impulses...

Personally I'm happy to be getting any costume options in this update. And yes, Backagain, the bit about "anime-inspired" costume elements is most undoubtedly a sales pitch to anime fans, congrats for recognizing that...

I mean what a shocker. Companies sell stuff! Ok, this is my moral outrage right here: :|

Come on folks. I've seen a lot of garish costumes and a lot of well done ones. I've even seen good costumes constructed of elements I previously thought to be garish in and of themselves.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled "Issue 4 is coming! The end is nigh! Repent now or forever burn in the fires of trite anime-inspired cotume elements and PVP-related nerf complaints!!" thread.

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*** You are ignoring this user ***

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And it's even funnier the second time around.

To the rest of you, I'd reccomend not arguing with him. Just smile and nod, and move on to a more constructive thread.

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*** You are ignoring this user ***

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Well, I thought it was funny...

What I love about the "Guns Ammo" shop in KR is it's located directly across the street from a bar...

...bad city planning, perhaps?