Shubbie
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Quote:Because some people enjoy playing more difficult characters, and players do drop blasters.Originally Posted by Zem
Or when the goalpost has gone into hypothetical land? We were talking about content that doesn't even exist anymore. You'll notice Shubbie said, "IF". IF they decide to make truly challenging content again. Problem is... there isn't. Like it or don't, this game isn't being geared towards the min/max end of the power spectrum and so a lot of this theorycrafting about Blaster performance going on in this thread is quite likely irrelevant.
Who DOES go to that trouble? Think about it. If you were even a little bit right then Blasters would have trouble finding teams AND they'd have trouble soloing. All that has been claimed in this thread. So why are people playing Blasters if there's no part of the game they don't have trouble playing? Because they ARE playing Blasters. PvP? Go on... make me laugh.
How about this: People are playing Blasters because they are fun to play and they are good ENOUGH to play in any content this game offers. Because, yes, most teams out there DO just grab anyone available. I ought to know. I play a Stalker and I get on teams quite easily. So it can't be that hard.
Maybe if this day comes that the devs decide to take this game in a min/max direction and only develop content like the original LRSF, people WILL be dropping their Blasters in droves and then you'll actually have a point. But today the inconvenient truth is that no matter what performance stats you can throw up here, people are simply quite happy playing AND teaming with Blasters. You are standing in the middle of a field on a bright sunny day shouting "The sky is falling!" Why should the devs listen?
Even Arcana conceded this point.
But just because they are weaker than competing archetypes doesnt mean no one will play them, Heck players still play gravity dom's no matter how utterly horrid they are, doesnt mean their balanced. -
Come on Baf is so far from hard at this point it would need faster than light travel to reach somewhat challenging.
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Quote:Yes and NoOriginally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Yeah, and by your own argument you only need one amazing speedy player to handle most TFs. That's true! Therefore all ATs are superfluous, because that player can play whatever she wants and bring seven "helpers" and get the job done just as well. Yep, even blasters can lead speed TFs and be the first one smashing each spawn and the one who starts soloing the AV while the team meanders over. I realize you don't think that counts because it isn't "average players" but if the fact that no AT is essential to a speed TF is among your criteria for the uselessness of blasters, everything else sucks equally.
Yes because all content is so easy at the moment that players could take all pool powers and still make it through.
But Blasters are still weaker than cor/dom/soa the three other ranged dps classes.
If the devs ever tried to make hard content, you can be sure blasters would be sat to stack cor and Soa, dom's might be sat too depending on how the difficulty went.
This also ignores the fact that blasters are a heck of a lot harder to solo at 50, than any of the other choices. -
Quote:This, for a while I went to another game that I wont name, where a nerf meaning like 1/10 of 1% was enough for an entire class to get sat on raids, sometimes for an entire season.Originally Posted by Zem
To be entirely fair, I think his point was that you can't really make the game truly challenging while retaining that "anything works" gameplay. Makes sense. The harder something gets, the more power it requires to beat, hence the more "optimal" your team would need to be.
On a lighter note, the idea that you wouldn't be allowed to bring 6 stalkers is just plain hilarious.
This game isnt like this, but they are trying to make trials and TF's harder, to do this they really need to stop with this balancing in a vacuum they seem to do.
Do blasters function yes, are they harder and require more work compared to other AT's that can fill a damage function OH YES!
Just for an example if a TF advertises for a TF damage needed, would anyone really consider a Cor, Soa or dominator not to be damage. No I dont think so...
BUt if a TF advertises for a support, there is no way you can say a blaster is support, but a Cor, Soa or dominator is support...
All three are both, blaster is damage and only damage.... -
couple of things, how many times have the LRSF been nerfed? and I know purples came in way after it debued, but I dont remember if it was in before Io's. Av's had their stats changed, the game has changed alot since it came out, now isnt then, its not challenging anymore.
My point is if you remember when it first came out Dominators and stalkers were in an uproar because they never got invited, except for the pity spot....
Because stacked Buff/debuff overrode any other need in the game.
Also AT diversification is kinda a snarky joke I make about the devs every once in a while, its kind of a little poke harkening back to Enhancement diversification.
No I dont think teams should be limited, but AT's NEED to be brought up to par with each other in an objective sense or players will sit them.
Now I couldnt tell you exactly by how much, or exactly what makes blasters weak, but I think 500 posts of arguing back and forth and the fact that this topic has popped up on and off for 2+ years shows there is a problem and if they ever want to make anything harder or challenging they need to fix some of these problems.
As an example, Dual pistols still looks like junk when compared to Archery.....Gravity still looks bad next to Plant, things like this. -
Quote:Yes and no, technically Cor's and defenders are more squishy.Originally Posted by Giant2005
Blasters still have the highest damage modifiers and easily do more damage than every other AT.
The problem is, they aren't very survivable. This never used to be an issue before everyone became obscenely powerful with IOs and now Incarnates. Their survivability was given to them by buffs, debuffs, controls and heals. The problem is that with IOs and Incarnates, everyone but the Blaster is already a Tank - the traditional team format has gone out the window and even when you get a buffer in the team they rarely bother applying them.
It isn't a Blaster issue, it is a playstyle issue - no-one's playstyle meshes with the Blaster AT anymore.
Dom's and Soa's are quite a bit less squishy.
But cor's and def's apply a bonus to everyone, including sometimes themselves, this makes everyone better, the more you stack it the better it gets.
I said some time ago, if the devs EVER want to make challenging content they are going to have to implement AT diversification. No more than 2 of any one AT, otherwise we will get the LRSF syndrome of TF's made up of 6 cor/def and 2 brute/tank/scrap and everyone else will be left out. -
Also the problem with blasters is a very specific one.
No one, really say blasters have a problem before 40, before 40 anything can be dealt with by just applying overwhelming damage or avoiding problematic enemies, ie Cot.
Post 40 unless you are leveling strictly in mission architect, trying to find the few easy enemies among the sea of problematic ones becomes a non starter.
This is where blasters fall on their face, at 50 and incarnate it becomes even worse since everyone with a bare minimum of effort is now outfitted with a nuke.
Yes post 10bil marketing geniuses can outfit multiple rare sets and purples and make a blaster effective, though funny not as effective as a cor, def or soa still, but effective.
THe problem lies between these areas.
Most players will never see more than a few rare io sets or a handful of purples, so balancing around that is not really a suitable solution. Also the devs have said many many many MANY MANY times the game will not be balanced around Io's. Especially not around purples. -
Average player MUST be the balance metric.
Unless you are considering taking blaster out of basic archetypes and putting it into advanced archetype.
This is actually funny since Soa being a prestige archetype is much easier and more effective to play than a blaster.
Funny that. -
Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Possibly. However, the current cap seems high enough for that purpose and I am doubtful that even 200% more cap room will actually have much impact. I am not opposed to a cap increase for the psychological benefit, but I can't see it having a lot of benefit even in your narrow case (granted, I generally stick to fighting +1s and +2s solo, perhaps if I engaged +3s more often I would think differently).
A blaster's kill speed is already high enough that they generally get more benefit from 2 to 4 purples than they will out of 6 to 12 reds (although I admit that assessment is based on Fire/Fire specifically, I am not sure I'd say the same about my Nrg/Devices and Sonic/Nrg (but they get gobs of control, it is possible they could really benefit from reds, since they need less purples), but my Ice/Electric is close enough to the Fire/Fires, IME).
And there is the problem
Blasters require support
Corruptors give it -
Quote:Missed the point, why would you want to take a blaster over a corruptor?Originally Posted by _eeek_
I think this mindset behind this argument is one of the sillier excuse for drama I've heard in awhile. Well, since the "buffer, NO, healer!" argument died off, anyway. (What? It's STILL going?!) I feel badly that you feel marginalized, but I think this is in your own mind, not in game play. You're a blaster because you prefer to have a toon who deals high damage, and can do so from range. Wait.... you can do melee damage too? And MORE than my scrapper? Does this mean I have to delete all my scrappers, because they are now unnecessary, since you can do the same thing, and some of your powers do it better than I can?
You're not good at what you do because of your AT. Nor are you less good because someone else got a nifty blast. Or got a nuke (hey, at least the shield charge whining died off! What?! The NERFED it because of all the fussing?! Wait... if we got rid of the buffs or the heals in empathy, would that....? Oh, nevermind). People are good at what they do because they have first learned how to play the game. That takes time. It takes patience. Then the players research powerset options, figure out the best combinations for what they want to do, and once again taken the time and care to build and craft a toon that does what they want, in the way in which they want it to work.
If you want a blaster who has buffs, this is called a corruptor. If you want a blaster who has holds, this is called a dominator. If you want a blaster who can do melee, that's called a... oh, yeah, blaster. If you want tank with ranged attacks, you roll up a tank who takes the pool powers that give them 2 ranged attacks. None of these has replaced a blaster in all the years they have been available. It's not your powerset, or your phat lewt, or whatever, that makes you necessary or superfluous to a team. It's YOU!
If you want a reason to feel inadequate, take your spiffed-out, just-turned-50 into a Lambda or a Keyes. But just don't blame those feelings on the toon standing next to you because s/he has a single, strong blast on a 10 minute timer.
You wouldnt, ever.. -
Some other games have moved to a system of current currency and past currency and thats it.
Everything is bought with one or the other. -
Being weaker does not equal more fun
Because some people dont have problems doesnt mean no one has problems or this post wouldnt have hit 350 posts, and this is hardly the first time a post like this has come up
You never see people saying controllers or corruptors are too weak. -
Can we please please talk about the ridiculous amount of currencies in the game right now?
There are like a dozen different merits, a bunch of incarnate piece types.
Can we please consider reducing this to a slightly, slightly less confusing amount. -
Your always better off taking defensive pool powers than melee attacks, taking melee attacks without having defense is a trip to a debt badge.
Again we arent talking level 50 blaster incarnates with purples coming out of every orifice.
No melee attacks itself is not the problem, dominators are fine.
The problem is 3/4 of blasters total powers are attacks.... what... wait.. and they still dont do that much more damage than scrappers, corruptors or dominators, Soa.
Im not saying they dont do any more, just not enough more for the fact that they do nothing else.
Nevermind the fact that what the heck does any character need more than 5 or 6 attacks for anyway, you dont have enough animation time for any more than that.
Recharge is hardly an issue later in the game. -
The problem with blasters is having the most ridiculous secondaries in the game.
Having a primary of damage and a secondary of damage is so beyond comprehension its just amazing.
Violate the cottage rule and redo the secondaries to include some defensive and more auxiliary powers and get rid of the stupid melee attacks, take away the crash from nukes, and low and behold blasters might get useful.
Till then Im keeping my blasters shelved, blasters off my team and sticking to playing corruptors.
Let me just say this, if any other AT took 2 powers from their secondary they would be laughed off a team, but this is close to the standard for blasters, they often pass up nearly their entire secondary to stack defense from pool powers. No AT should be skipping big chunks of their secondaries for pool powers.
The days of defenders taking 1 attack are long gone -
Thanks Arcana, alot of that said what Im trying to get at, but have failed to.
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Nah Ive had similiar problems on other blasters, though.
And Im not the only one who knocks blasters.
For years I bashed the heck out of Ta/Arch because it was so weak, and 3 round of buffs later, yeah its good.
Blasters have gotten 1, need 2 more then we will probably be there.
Removing crash from nuke is a great start, judgements are better than nukes... wait.. what..
Incarnate abilities should not be overshadowing core... -
Quote:SOA's are almost as good as cor's with the stacking leadership they provide.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
A bad team with a defender isn't a bad team unless the defender sucks. A bad team with a blaster is still a bad team because the blaster has little potential to force multiply. None of this is groundbreaking. Again, buffs and debuffs are game changers. This doesn't mean blasters are bad, it means buffs and debuffs can effect up to 8 people on a team. We're back to the old "City of Buffs/Debuffs, everything else can sit on the sidelines."
Brutes, tanks, scrappers, EATs, dominators, blasters... whatever. If it's not a rad, kin, or cold, we don't want it.
If that's really your argument, the only way to "fix" it is to have the devs lock out every AT except corruptors, defenders, controllers, or masterminds. And that's not a game I want to play.
Also I kinda recall I just said, most of the def sets are... mostly sort of balanced...
Poisons weak, but thats getting fixed, storm is situational weak or overpowered...sonic might be a bit weak too.
The rest are more or less about the same
Well for me, Ill just keep inviting the cor/def and leave the blasters waiting for more teams. -
Honestly Im not sure what they need to do.
Im just saying I feel nearly useless playing my ice/ice blaster
My Ta/arch however is awesome, and I know ive knocked that set in the past, but after the changes they are finnally good.
Ill put it this way, Ive pulled bad teams out and got TF's finnished with my Dom or Def, when a team starts to go bad with my blaster, I just fold it early and dont bother.
All subjective but true.
Removing nuke crashes is probably a good start though. -
Quote:Blasters have more hp than cor/def they have inferior defenses. Not the same thing.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It's interesting that this thread started its magical journey with the assertion that blasters were bad because incarnate powers render them useless. When it was demonstrated that blasters benefit at least as much as anyone from incarnate powers, the argument shifted to blasters being bad because their defensive abilities are inferior to those of other damage dealers. With this debunked, the topic has come to be about how blasters are bad because buffers and debuffers are better. Any guesses as to what the next reason that blasters are bad will be?
And its always been my assertion that blasters are not useless they are just inferior to other choices, namely cor/def or scrapper/brute.
Though I do also think they are inferior to dominators, but I cant find the right way to word that, they just feel weaker, and its too hard to put that in any subjective way, so I dropped it. -
Quote:Actuallly MM's and Controllers are pretty good too.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Then it's not just blasters. This game should be City of Defenders/Corruptors. Everything else is a "wasted" spot on the team.
In truth, though, the more buffs and debuffs you add, the more the blaster's value gets multiplied.
Yes, but adding a blaster takes away a spot that could be adding more buffs.
Though its possible 6 and 2 or 7 and 1 might be the best combo.
I do remember when the LRSF was hard the standard finnishing combo was 7 cor's and 1 brute.
Yeah this is an inherent problem in the game. -
Go poke a head over in AT forum, big discussion on this issue.
And oh that tanker/blaster super AT he was talking about
Thats a Brute... try one out, they hit 40 and becomes gods among mere mortals. -
Quote:I can tell off the top of my headOriginally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Still waiting for a response to my math. I wonder if we'll get it.
A single blaster will outdamage any single corruptor or defender, almost every time, its possible some real outliers might tie up, but thats not what we are talking about here.
Once you get to about 2 or 3 corruptors or defenders, it shouldnt really too much the buff set they are all about balanced, mostly.. sort of.
Blasters will fall behind the cor/def team, because of the stacking effect, and the more you stack, the better it gets, this has been known for years.
So when you are making a TF/trial, whatever.
Add a buff/debuff always is a better value given the choice between the two because they make 7 other players better.
So all you have to do is give a shout for xxxxx tf buff/debuff needed, even if you have to take a blaster to fill it out, it still stacks your buff/debuff. -
Quote:See this is what any team of halfway competent players can complete anything in the game.Originally Posted by Shadowclone
Anything in this game can be completed with any combination of competent players. If I form any sort of team I take the first 8 people to show up, regardless of AT. Team of 8 stalkers? Sounds like fun. Team of 8 ninja masterminds? Sounds like a party. That's how I play, and it hasn't failed me yet.
When a more powerful build comes in handy is when things go to pot.
Your TF's just lost 3 players to disconects and 2 players are new.
Yes this is subjective, but I know there is a heck of alot more I can do to pull a team together with my Dominator or Defender than with my blaster. -
It doesnt really matter what secondary you put on a corruptor or defender
Any team is better off adding a defender or corruptor over a blaster.