ShrikeX

I still love this guide. Worth reading for anyone interested in a dominator.

Things that aren't mentioned since I7.

PVP: 10 secondary attacks that hit = Domination

PVE: Timer for domination reduced
Domination now acts like a long lasting super break free.

Good stuff.

One more comment, chilling embrace for dominators does not do -res, just -movement -recharge.

very nice guide. I can immediately see how my fire/ice is going to differ however. This seems to be a very range oriented build and I really wanna get into the thick of things with my imps. Similar to ice/fire with artic air hot feet is actually a fantastic damage mitigator for a few reasons, #1 dead enemies don't cause damage, the -recharge on hotfeet is great, finally enemies get the heck out of the way (avoiding melee). Its also nice after flashfire sans fire cages to keep them huddled up (due to the movement slow), then wammo ice sword circle.

I can also see why you slotted a recharge in imps, they aren't very durable. With Ice/ jack seemed more durable but really started to take a bad beating in the post 40 world. I can only imagine how tough it is with imps.

Again great guide, but I personally love hot feet, ice sword and ice sword circle. To each their own!

This thread seriously needs to be locked. No one is saying anything new...

So 515 if I am not in an elite VG I am in the minority? I would very much assume that most people are not in elite villain groups. Most folks are typically if in a large group are in a PUG. Does anyone disagree with this?

I guess dominators are not for the Power gamers. If thats the argument, than I agree whole heartdley, and more power to the AT if thats the case.

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Its not that we prefer them to be unchanged. Its just that some people are blowing things out of proportion, just like positron stated. I pulled a ice/fire dom to lvl 42 in 4 months almost completely with large PUGs.

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If you are happy with taking 4 months to get to level 42, and if you team with PuGs rather than an organized VG, I can see where you would think doms are OK, or at least I can see that you perhaps don't have the experience to evaluate what other ATs can do on a team in skilled hands.

NinjaMonkey discounts that factor as "min-maxing," and I agree with him that it's a game and the primary thing is to enjoy it, but I think for most people the enjoyment in the game comes from seeing how good you can be. If you aren't a member of a good VG that regularly runs large teams doing hard missions (or on the friend's list for members of such a VG) then you really don't know what you are missing.

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I typically play once a weekend and am not a "powergamer"
It took me almost 8 months to get to 45 with my spines/invul scrapper. And I was playing a lot more.

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crusades

[/ QUOTE ] . We're talking about adjusting a powerset to be better for the majority even if it inconveniences a few hard core gamers. Not quite the same as the crusades.

If it were to turn out that most people prefer doms to remain unchanged, I'd accept it. But I honestly believe that most people find them, or at least grav, underpowered, ineffective and full of faulty powers.
Even if I didn't have my own experience to go on, just based on what others have written and what other players have told me I can tell that doms and especially grav are not balanced with the other ATs.

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Its not that we prefer them to be unchanged. Its just that some people are blowing things out of proportion, just like positron stated. I pulled a ice/fire dom to lvl 42 in 4 months almost completely with large PUGs. At this point I am still not having problems with him, he provides a lot of large scale damage mitigation with ice slick, artic air and shiver, and does great damage with /fire. I'd love a damage boost or a control boost but I don't really need it.

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Not to throw fire on this issue, but in all honesty, Ice/ and /fire have alot of what many people have been asking for in Doms in general.

Basically:
Ice/ has some good secondary effect debuffs and /fire has really good damage.

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I'll tell you folks think things are limited to certain powersets but in fact most of the powersets have some REALLY nice features that are as good if not better than ice or /fire. For example

Gravity: Late blooming but sing and wormhole are as good as it gets. Sing really makes up for the lack of control and lets you focus on damage.

Fire: Lots of fun fun controls (bonfire and flashfire), though flashfire needs A LOT of slot loving. Hot feet is great with stamina, and who can forget the imps.

Plant: SOC, nuff said.

Mind: Tons and Tons and Tons of soft control. Probably the top soft control primary.

And for the secondaries

Psi: sometimes hated, ultimate late bloomer, arguably the best 2 powers in the game with DS and PS. Takes a while to get there but the rewards are great.

Ice: On par with fire damage (yes its been proven) though an endurance hog, doesnt have to deal with a snipe and has 3 (yes 3!) high damage powers or better. It also get power boost.

Energy: Total focus and power burst. great burst damage and extra control for those who need it. Again power boost is great for this set.

Thorns: -Def +toxic DOT in almost every attack. Benefits from AIM, has 2 high damage attacks late. No silly snipe here either.


All in all I love my ice/fire but the other sets make me very jealous, if your power selection is right. A lot of folks say that power selection shouldn't matter and is really a problem for dominators. To those folks I say, well if you're a tank and don't take your mez protection thats a problem. If you're a blaster without your single target high damage attack thats a problem.

Anyway happy dominating.

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crusades

[/ QUOTE ] . We're talking about adjusting a powerset to be better for the majority even if it inconveniences a few hard core gamers. Not quite the same as the crusades.

If it were to turn out that most people prefer doms to remain unchanged, I'd accept it. But I honestly believe that most people find them, or at least grav, underpowered, ineffective and full of faulty powers.
Even if I didn't have my own experience to go on, just based on what others have written and what other players have told me I can tell that doms and especially grav are not balanced with the other ATs.

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Its not that we prefer them to be unchanged. Its just that some people are blowing things out of proportion, just like positron stated. I pulled a ice/fire dom to lvl 42 in 4 months almost completely with large PUGs. At this point I am still not having problems with him, he provides a lot of large scale damage mitigation with ice slick, artic air and shiver, and does great damage with /fire. I'd love a damage boost or a control boost but I don't really need it.

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so the 'Sweet Spot' for Doms is 23 (slotted with SOs) to 40 (or whenever you hit AV/Monster mish where your Primary is nullified by Purple Triangles)

Well, thats almost half the game!!

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Actually, on an ice/nrg dom, I felt I more than contributed my share as soon as I started using ice slick at level 12. Further, before then, I could usually nuke the boss (BOI, powerpush, BOI) which at the time was a big deal for corruptors, and brutes (no real defense/resistance before 12).

Really, other than AV fights (and PVP), I dont think doms (or, ice/nrg doms or fire/fire doms) need any improvement. The problem is ice slick, AA, BOI and glacier not working. Slick uses knockdown, AVs basically immune. AA uses fear and a extremely short confuse, which dont seem to affect AVs at all, leaving an ok slow with a huge end drain. BOI only works with no triangles, same with glacier. Shiver is a slow and -recharge, which mainly doesnt help much when an AV can win in two hits (ie. no recharge needed).

Looking at my fire/fire, I have smoke, char, hotfeet, flashfire and bonfire. The def is smoke is pitiful, char works 33% at most (triangles), hotfeet does damage, but the fear doesnt seem to affect AVs (though I may have just missed it), flashfire needs stuns to work, and bonfire is knockback which most can just run through.

In other words, the devs think its fun for my powers to work 90% of PVE, and in the 10% when the chips are down, they take them away. Both my toons can do ok damage and do some slows, and thats about it against an AV. THAT is the problem, that I and some others have with doms, and its made more apparent due to the LRSF, where you face 5-8 of them (AVs) at the same time.

Same as Kid Laz, I have boosted my doms health through accolades, and it doesnt do much for the AT (IMO). I have also used red inspirations, and have been on teams with assualt. I'm told assualt adds +19% damage, and it didnt make my dom any better than he is now.

Every boost is nice, but the complaints I see as valid mostly wont be fixed by adding health, damage, or mez protection, unless the add a lot more health or damage than is reasonable.

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not even half the game when you consider it takes a considerably longer time to get from 23 to 50 than it does from 1-23

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Not sure I'd follow the advice of anyone who can't spell "with", "that", or "stick"....

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wot?

Or...
Scale our damage similar to our hold duration modifiers over time. As our control options become more limited in higher levels our damage should increase (i.e. against AV's and EB's with purple triangles).

I really think the devs need to bite the bullet and have dominators get corrupter level damage (without scourge) so that there will be more dominators in the game and quiet all the detractors. Its not a real big deal, blasters and tankers both have pretty high secondary AT modifiers, why not us?

awesome guide. Thanks for putting the time in.

I heard doms suck, is there any validity to this?

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Mmmmm, maybe I should just take Hot Feet? I don't know. I am still testing this Fire dom. I do think Psonic's damage is so low at the moment.

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hehe you're just gonna make yourself mad again. Try ice, mind or plant, with fire, thorns or energy. Those combinations don't mature as late.

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The Brutes on my party this morning were bragging how easy RSF mish is.... and they were the first ones that REQUESTED for a Corruptor to heal/buff them. They actually ask the leader (who is a Stalker) to find a Corruptor. The first time we tried the mish on relentless, we got owned by those Wailers. I had a feeling they didn't want me... lol

Then they added two Thug MMs and a Corruptor with Warm. The mish becomes instant easier. The MMs were using tar patch, fearsome stare. I don't think they really miss my holds... and my damage was barely noticeable in comparison to Brute/Stalker's AS. Those Energy Brute can stun too and one of the Brutes is a Dark/Dark with fear aura. God, I so wanted to quit my Dom. I could hold the boss which they could kill in like 10s.

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You've put your finger right on the problem. Dominators are supposed to be the "controlling" AT in CoV but by the late game control is either unneeded, unachievable or both. Brutes have massive damage and excellent survivability. Add Taunt or a damage aura and most can manage mob control on their own. Add Corrupters with powerful buffs and debuffs to support the Brutes and you're set. Add an MM for insurance and you've added more control, more damage and more debuffs in one package.

Factor in that the late game features a long series of EBs and/or AVs who mostly can't be held (only debuffed).

So why, with all this control, survivability and firepower, would you want to include a high-maintenance squishy with crappy damage that you don't need, crappy low-mag short-duration holds that don't work on any opponent dangerous enough to the Brutes to be bothered holding, and who needs to be healed and babysat constantly to keep alive?

Answer: You don't.

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low mag? Do you have any sort of idea what you are talking about? There is no difference between controller and dominator mag. There is difference in some cases differences between other at's hold mags. My AOE hold is up almost every 2 minutes and holds for almost 30 seconds, that must really suck! (and thats without powerboost or domination).
oh and low damage sure, lessee blaze is up almost every 5 seconds and does 180 damge per pop to a white con minion. 250 with fiery embrace, nearly 300 with domination and fiery embrace.

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Looking back at a few pages, when did everyone start agreeing that Dominators are crappy outside of Domination? It's stil not true folks.

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Lemme guess, Plant/ Dom?

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actually thats not the overall consesus. I have a 42 ice/fire dom who I would say is as useful if not more than my high level spines scrapper. There are just a few that beleive that only plant/ does any good as a dominator.

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You know what i think is the reason behind the very different perceptions of doms that people have? I think it's the difference between teams and solo. If a person solos and they like their toon, then that's really all that's important to them and they're going to be surprised when they see other people criticizing doms and saying they don't measure up.

The issue, as I see it, is on big teams. On big teams the measure of whether a toon is OK or not is no longer the individual person's satisfaction with the toon -- like it is when soloing -- the measure of effectiveness on a big team is whether the toon can pull it's weight compared to what other toons can do.

So, yes, anyone who mostly soloes is probably going to have a tendency to tell anyone who isn't satisfied with doms to "find another AT," because they way they look at it, the individual player being happy with the toon is all that matters.

For someone like me, who is part of a big VG that has a bunch of people raising toons to 50 on large teams, and that has a team doing the Recluse SF several times a week, I have to be more concerned about how my toon measures up compared to other toons.

I really think this difference is one of the main reasons people have such different ideas about doms -- we are talking about completely different ways of measuring effectiveness.

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There are a lot of users here including myself that do fantastic on teams with their dominators.

Would like to mention that "Hold Them Touch Them" The all Dominator Villain Group is around still on Pinnacle. We have a small player base but are looking to grow a group of dominators for pve and pvp. Send a tell to @shrikex or @anglican if interested. Or just post on the Dominators boards.

Thanks

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I dont understand why defenders and MMs have as good a control factor as dominators do.

[/ QUOTE ] I notice this all the time, and all the more so now that I've made two new MMs. It's astounding to me that (IMHO) my /dark has more effective controls that my grav/ except when domination is up. IMHO Even a clever /force field can control better.

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Yup, /Dark has aoe heal, fear, hold and great nasty debuffs and some good buffs from Shadow. That set is just imply too strong. No wonder so many MMs take /dark.

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Their durations and recharge times suck (hold and fear wise).

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But you have 2 stackable holds, which allows instahold on an boss, and soulstorm is the most incredible hold ive seen and one of the few shining patron powers.

So ice has 1 decent hold, 1 situational
Dark has 1 fairly good hold
Ghost widow has 1 very good hold.

Thats an amazing amount of control for a non controller, nondominator.

Now to Necro/TA
Has 1 decent hold
1 pretty good aoe hold(this hold is very good for MM's who can actually get away with the aftereffects)
1 great slow
1 aoe knockdown
1 pet with hold, immob, fear
Wow.... I mean wow..

Necro/dark is even better as fluffy joins liche in controller fun
1 decent hold
1 aoe fear
1 aoe slow
1 aoe disorient
2 controlling pets

I mean even more wow...

Now add into all of this some amazing damage.

Now Im not saying its dominator level, but its close enough to raise the question why put up with anemic dominator damage when you can have this PLUS lots of damage.

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take into consideration the duration of the holds and the recharge times. To even get to dominator level you need to expend a ton of slots. From what I understand Ghost Widow's hold is bugged b/c it seems to be unresistable (thats what I've heard).

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Ice/dark Necro/dark necro/ta Dark/dark and other controllery MM's and corruptors arent going anywhere. They give up damage for that control, but they still do more damage than dominators.

Heck any MM can outdamage any pre pet dominator by a large margin and even post pet dominators by a moderate.

Necro/dark and Necro/ta have some really good control. And much of it soft like tar patch and glue which werent nerfed to heck in the controller nerf.

Dominators are in a bad place compared to the controllerMM's and cor's.

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their control is very questionable. The recharge and activation times for ice/dark are horrible in comparison to dominators.

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They have 2 holds though. Which allows them to instahold a boss. 3 with patron powers.

Also they arent nearly as dependant on holds as dominators, also its more than enough control to take out a sapper.

Perfect control is a thing of the past, now its enough control to keep the PITA mobs off you long enough to kill the rest.

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and how often do those 2 holds recharge? Have you ever seen the animation time for bitter freeze ray? Also the duration of time for which they actually are held makes our AOE holds look golden. How many bosses and or lt's can you hold within say 5 large battles? Im betting not many.

with my dominator I can hold up to 3 bosses simultaneously. I have 2 recharges in my single target hold plus hasten up most of the time. Glacier is also up about every 3rd battle for me (2 recharges, 2 hold, 2 acc).

Of course they aren't nearly as dependent on holds that domiantors are, thats our primary. Corrupters primary is damage.

Even if I was only able to hold LT's for a reasonable amount of time (in the early lvls like 1-12), I can still hold some pretty vicious LT's (such as trolls, COT ghosts etc).

/Dark is pretty nice control wise but comes no where close to any of the dominator/controller primaries. For all reasonable talk Ice has 1 major hold, and one situational. Both of which have poor recharge, no accuracy bonus, and decreased hold times.

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I also didn't factor domination into this equation at all. On a large team non news paper mission domination is up for 180 seconds per pop roughly about 3 times per mission for me. I can insta hold any boss any time I want to. Even controllers don't have that luxury.

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We are meant to truly dominate single targets ...

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And yet against the only single targets that truly NEED to be dominated (Archvillains), our control ability is reduced incredibly.

That's really the biggest legitimate PvE complaint for Dominators: Archvillain fights. It's where we should shine the MOST, yet it's where we shine the LEAST. There are a few other minor matters (like the fact that a little more damage would probably be REASONABLE, and the fact that our endurance to damage ratio could probably be a bit kinder to us), but this one is just a slap in the face.

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Im reasonablly happy I can hold down an av roughly 1/4 of the time. You can get a lot of damage in that 1/4 of the time the AV is not pounding on you. Especially since their regen nerf.

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Ice/dark Necro/dark necro/ta Dark/dark and other controllery MM's and corruptors arent going anywhere. They give up damage for that control, but they still do more damage than dominators.

Heck any MM can outdamage any pre pet dominator by a large margin and even post pet dominators by a moderate.

Necro/dark and Necro/ta have some really good control. And much of it soft like tar patch and glue which werent nerfed to heck in the controller nerf.

Dominators are in a bad place compared to the controllerMM's and cor's.

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their control is very questionable. The recharge and activation times for ice/dark are horrible in comparison to dominators.

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They have 2 holds though. Which allows them to instahold a boss. 3 with patron powers.

Also they arent nearly as dependant on holds as dominators, also its more than enough control to take out a sapper.

Perfect control is a thing of the past, now its enough control to keep the PITA mobs off you long enough to kill the rest.

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and how often do those 2 holds recharge? Have you ever seen the animation time for bitter freeze ray? Also the duration of time for which they actually are held makes our AOE holds look golden. How many bosses and or lt's can you hold within say 5 large battles? Im betting not many.

with my dominator I can hold up to 3 bosses simultaneously. I have 2 recharges in my single target hold plus hasten up most of the time. Glacier is also up about every 3rd battle for me (2 recharges, 2 hold, 2 acc).

Of course they aren't nearly as dependent on holds that domiantors are, thats our primary. Corrupters primary is damage.

Even if I was only able to hold LT's for a reasonable amount of time (in the early lvls like 1-12), I can still hold some pretty vicious LT's (such as trolls, COT ghosts etc).

/Dark is pretty nice control wise but comes no where close to any of the dominator/controller primaries. For all reasonable talk Ice has 1 major hold, and one situational. Both of which have poor recharge, no accuracy bonus, and decreased hold times.

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I have a feeling Dominator is the hardest to balance of all.

Hold effect is the nastiest thing in this game. You cannot do ANYTHING when behing Held. That's as strong effect as you can get. How much balance do you need to allow Dominator to control in PvP? How fast do you allow Dom to build up their Domination?

PvP's problem has bigger issue due to Inspirations so I am not going to get into that.

But as for PvE, I only feel a bit inferior when fighting against Arc Villains but once I HOLD them, I feel so superb.. only if it's a few seconds of fame.


One thing they can probably do is to increase Domination gain when fighting against bosses. This way Doms can build up their Dom faster and thus dealing out more damage even though they fail to hold/control.

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Jib thats a really excellent point. Holds are the absolute ultimate debuff.