Rooftop_Raider

Just a reply on the snipe situation. I love them as they are. But I only use them to lead off.

I contend that if we had enough good attacks in our primary to fight non stop (at least with Hasten) - the same way that scrappers can - but at range, that would be the biggest boon to Blasters.

As argued before, I don't like pauses in damage dealing, then having to close in melee range in order to sustain attacks.

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Here's one thing that strikes me odd as hell. why do the put ranged holds in certain blaster primaries? Man those should be ATTACKS... damage only. with some minor after effects. Tesla cage, the Freeze rays.... Heck even Voltaic sentinel belong in SECONDARIES. That NEVER made sense to me to put both a pet AND a hold in a slow recharging powerset like elec. Freaking ridiculous. Then they just load the elec secondary up with melee attacks. .....BOGGLE. And */Ice which is elemental is of course... just shy of craptabulous.

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I agree with you here. I've tried playing an electric blaster but not having enough attacks just killed me. Literally. I need to be able to chain attack with several good ranged attack options, all from my primary. I don't see the need for utilitarian stuff in the primaries.

Personally I think (POINT #1) they should reduce the recharge time of our ranged attacks. Let's be honest, how many of us, WITH Hasten, have lulls in our attacks? I'm not talking about AoE's. I don't think anyone is argueing we need to use our long ranged AoE attacks non stop.

But for example I'll use Power Bolt, then Blast, then move closer with Burst, and hit Bolt again, and things start slowing down while I wait for my bigger two blasters to recharge all the time. Furthermore I am locked into blasting from the limited range of Power Burst.

After a short time you're pretty much needing other attacks, which can only come from our secondaries, and they are all melee.

Now think about it for those Blasters who don't choose Hasten.

Most of us don't compare well with scrappers in our area of expertist, ranged attacks, with 6-7 attacks in our primary. Now think about Ice with 3 good single target attacks total, no snipe, and one AoE. Or Electricity which has 2 good single target attacks, 1 target AoE, and 1 PBAoE.

We can't sit there like scrappers and blast non-stop without resorting to our melee attacks. Not after a short time.

Rather than make many of our melee attacks into ranged attacks, (POINT #2) why not allow us to cycle our bread and butter attacks more often? Why not let us use attacks like Power Burst, Bitter Ice Blast, Blaze at the same range as our other attacks? I'm still irked that Flares is a 60ft attack while Fire Blast is 80ft. Why is Charged Bolts 70ft and Lighting Bolt 80ft?

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Fire secondary powers are very useful and good, such as build up, consume and.....erm......and....."Help me here guys!!!" As a fire/fire blaster lvl 44, I agree with hepheatus, they are worth nothing.....hot feet can be combined with rain of fire (casted on yourself) to save your pencil-neck hero, but the animation of hot feet makes sure thugs get 2 or 3 blows into your weakling body before running away......and burn etcetc are......

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Well the only three attack powers I see of any value in the Fire secondary are Combustion, Fire Sword Circle and Burn. Solo, I rarely ever use Burn. All the mobs I attacked are dead by then. However in some cases a boss might survive and Burn still helps to deal damage. By the time you've gone through your attack chain you can bring up your single targets again.

Fire Sword Circle I personally don't like. Blazing Aura, Hot Feet, I have no idea why we have those powers. Ring of Fire? Rarely useful. I'd put it with Fire Sword.

In groups, Burn really shines. You go through your Aim+Buildup then Fire Breath+Ball then unload with Combustion, FSC and Burn. That's an immense amount of AoE damage.

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In defense of Heph, he is not asking for Godmode for Blasters or ranged Blasters, etc. He's specifically argued for a little defense, and no additional status protection. Though I don't share his view about adding defenses into the set, I don't feel it's in the best interest of anyone to bastardize what he's saying. (not directed at you aqshy)

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Green Arrow. In one of the episodes of JLU, he took on Wildcat hand to hand. Although he didn't defeat him, he was still able to hold him off for some time.

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Wildcat has no superhuman powers. That's in fact what his whole problem was in that episode. He, like Batman and select others in the League, have no superhuman powers. Wildcat is just an incredible fighter.

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The only reliable Scrapper Immob is Impale. Crippling Axe is is Described as immobilizing, but we Crit with it more than we Immob with it.

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Just a correction here. The immobilize on Crippling Axe Kick is practically 100% - but only stops minions. It slows LT's. Two applications will stop an LT. I used this power regularly for several levels of testing and it was extremely reliable.

Well the melee attacks are supplemental attacks. They are more powerful, but limited in range. Each set has enough room for 1-3 better powers in place of some ones that are lacking. The melee attacks are just fine in my book.

Yeah it's basically the world's greatest heroes, the flagships of Paragon City that survived, who are called the Surviving Eight. I think if you watch the first video you see the Rikti invasion and the aftermath and plenty of heroes shortly afterwards. We're still rebuilding Paragon City so it hasn't been that long.

Now if we could only get Alex Ross to do the artwork.

I don't have any time today, and quite frankly the investment in time for replies cuts into my game time, so I'll be exceptionally brief.

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The question is at what point do you limit teaming to restrict powerleveling. In my opinion the current setup of CoH is good.

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That's a good question. Even if you limit it to 5 levels, you can still be 5 levels below someone who is hunting +5's and still make great XP. So a lvl 30 can still hang out in the docks of PI, or 45 in a portal mission, and still get insane XP from the work of a single lvl 50 fire tanker. It minimizes the level range but still allows for the majority of people to powerlevel.

I come from EQ where outside of deliberate bugs you couldn't really powerlevel effectively, and DAOC where you had to work more for your level. Here you can be -9 and do absolutely nothing, ever, to get XP. And it won't slow the group down any.

To me that's a problem. This content is trivialized more than it needs to be. We have people who on their first characters powerlevel to endgame, see few missions, and complain the content is boring. We see people who do most of the missions once, and then never again. I'd hate to imagine that mentality in an FPS shooter where you play one round on a map and never want to go there again, regardless of circumstances.

I know one person who rolled his first character, a fire tanker, was powerlevelled to 22, and has since done most of his missions since then. When he hits 50 he's going to cancel his account. He, for all intents and purposes, is playing this game on easy mode (even though it's now set to Unyielding) and outside of Malta is able to see the content once, and that's all he wants to do. I just think that sort of mentality is easy to have when you play the game without any challenge.

For me, I spent months cutting my teeth on missions playing squishies, and no powerlevelling. I love the game because of it. I don't get board because I am challenged by the game. I make the game challenging.

Sigh, spent too much time. Gotta run take care!

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First off, if you are 9 levels below the con of the mob you get less XP than if you are 5 lvls below it. There is a curve in which the XP tapers off once you get so many lvls lower than what is being "arrested".

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Correct. That's the entry point.

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Seconly, if they put a 5 lvl cap on XP, how is that going to stop what all these whiners are complaining about?

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I am glad you asked the question. Here's the answer. It minimizes the range someone can be powerlevelled in. It's one of many possible things that can be done to combat powerlevelling in this game.

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You will still be able to p/l, and tells will still be sent out for that certain lvl range that fills the gap. Whether it be a lvl 42 to sk someone or a lvl 46 to sk someone.

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Correct. I'm not saying it's a cureall for powerlevelling. All powerlevelling will never be gone from any MMO. What I am saying is that it's more rampant in CoH than it should be, because it's so easy to do, and that there are ways to combat it. That is just one way.

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As i stated before, #1 - mind your own business

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Well it is my business when it comes to a problem that is so rampant it effects my ability to find good teams. It would take less time if powerlevelling wasn't so rampant. It's a fallicious arguement to make that it's not effecting anyone else.

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and #2 - p/ling will never stop.

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Correct. Just like crime will never stop. That doesn't mean you eliminate police on the streets, etc. If you've seen any of my arguements on this you'll recall I don't have a problem with some powerlevelling, but with the sheer amount of it we have in the game.

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I'm guessing neither will all the complaining whiners that dont have a lvl 50 or someone thats a lvl 50 that they're friends with to help them lvl.

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Where does that put me? That sorta pokes a hole in your absolute arguement, doesn't it? I am not sitting here and complaining about all the pro-PL whiners complaining about changes that make it harder. Why? It's a stupid thing to complain about.

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Really, thats what this all boils down to...jealousy.

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I disagree. It's about rampant powerlevelling making it harder for people to group and XP together at all levels.

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You could really care less about the longevity of the game and you can't blow enough smoke up my rear to make me believe you do. Get over it!

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What's scary is that you probably really believe that.

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I wasn't mischaracterizing anything. If I say in the same sentence "some people like iced tea and some people dont, so I am going to outlaw iced tea because no one likes it" Don't you think that sounds just a little odd? If the first statement is true then the second makes no sense.

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Well I brought up the fact that you said have no problem with what Statesman did, but you've gone to a lot of trouble to a) misrepresent him and b) insult him. You're reply was that it was no trouble at all really. I took your word at your face value. It's not an incident where you said two things in one sentence. You're entire sentence was "it was no trouble at all really." You're next sentences had nothing to do with you misrepresenting and insulting him. You went back to focusing on an issue about something you had no problem with.

The fact is this rampant powerlevelling effects more than the many people who can't stop doing it. This effects everyone else who is trying to form a pickup group, run a TF, etc.

The issue has never been "Statesman wants to remove fun from the game." That's not why he made the change. That's a straw man and you know it.


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LOL, well the change to the wolf mission has utterly failed in that respect.

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Well it's not meant to end all powerlevelling. This is a red herring.

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Again it is only a mischaracterization if you are a blind follower, taking the devs word as gospel without thinking about it for yourself.

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I'm neither a blind follower nor a dependant thinker. I'm a pragmatist. Because of that I don't need to take anyone out of context to make a point. Herein lies your problem. You have to fabricate context, that Statesman a) wants to take fun away from people and b) this change is supposed to somehow stop all powerlevelling. It's a stopgap for a particular instance, and one of a few things done to avoid powerlevelling from the game. You and I agree more effective measures will be done in the future. So why do you have to parrot the illogical stances a) and b) above? There's no reason. You have other good arguements you can use that ARE valid.

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No what makes it hard to group and enjoy missions is the fact that grouping is simply not as profitable as soloing.

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I disagree with that as a rule, and here is why. Both soloing and grouping can be more profitable based on the AT you have, and the team you build. It's one thing to make a fire tanker or regen scrapper. Another thing to make a defender or controller. Also alot of that depends on player aptitude and skill, as well as intelligent power/slotting choices.

You can find instances where either is more profitable. But not everyone wants to play the most uber solo AT/powers/slotting.

BTW right now, with my MA/SR scrapper, I gain XP faster in groups than I do solo. I don't know why, but that's been my experience. I've had to log on a different character when I want to group with people, so I don't outlevel my contacts and their missions.

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The reason people are pl'ing is because the investment in running missions in terms of advancement is laughable.

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I wouldn't go that far. You can get the same amount of XP per second in a mission than you can on the streets. Furthermore you have less competition, plus you get badges, souvieneers and mission completion XP. Plus it's a lot less boring than street hunting.

You could also mix the two up. Street hunt on the way to missions, between them. It's rare to level a character who doesn't do missions, either. You have 2 arguements here. 1) That soloing is faster than grouping, and that street hunting is more lucrative than missions. Both are true in some cases, but not in all. For example my friend plays only a fire tanker and he's lvl 43 now. I play a fire blaster who is now 41 (I bring him out just to group with him). He's an uber fire tanker, and no doubt can get XP quickly. But with me along, I dramatically increase the amount of XP he gets in the same amount of time. I do that for any character that groups with me, except possibly another blaster. And the fire tanker does that for me, too. I can't herd huge chunks of a map, he can. He brings them to a spot, and I inferno. We even have timing down. I have 3RCH and 3DMG and we go chunks at a time.

There's no way he's going to get faster XP without me. There's no way I can get faster XP without him.


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The reason people herd and reset missions is because the risk-vs-reward of facing a string of AV's mission after mission is simply out of whack.

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That's because those missions are a challenge. We get posts saying this game is too easy and there is no challenge, and then those saying this game is too hard because of those challenges. Only are these things even a problem until you're 40's, and generally 1 per story arc except for one contact in the 40-45 and then 45-50 range. Plus you can do other people's missions, or street hunt, grouped or solo'd.

Keep in mind here that I am not arguing absolutes. That powerlevelling is 100% bad. My arguement is that rampant powerlevelling (so many people, all the time) hurts the game, and that the Devs recognize this, and are willing to at least conservatively battle it.

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Like I said earlier, the devs are trying to slow down the leveling process, even if they are saying they don't care how fast you level.

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Well let me make sure I understand what you're saying, because what you say there doesn't make sense. I've seen nowhere, either from Dev actions or words that they want to slow "levelling" down as a rule. They want to slow down powerlevelling, and they've taken some measures to stop it. But they haven't done anything drastic about the actual game mechanics of the game, because as you can tell, powerlevelling is still rampant.

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How many issues do the devs have to try and ride both sides of the fence on before you see the fallacy in their arguments?

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I'll just have to take that as sarcasm, because there's nothing fallicious about what they've said so far on the matter. I've seen the quotes he's made, and how they've been taken out of context, and that doesn't cut it.

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LOL, I'm not the one being dishonest here.

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I think some of your arguements you are being serious, and others you're not remotely serious. For example the "fun" straw man and the "stop all powerlevelling" red herring. I sorta have to guess here and just assume the logical fallacies are merely sarcasm. I like the cut of some of your other arguements though.

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Take the fanboi hat of for a minute, re-read what he said, and think about it. It is pretty plain to see.

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Well I read what he said, and I read what you took out of context. I'm no fanboy, I just know when to recognize logical fallacies, and who's relying on them, Nozy.

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Well, if you don't mind following the path the devs lay before you without even thinking about why or the consequences of their actions more power to you.

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Well the thing is, I understand the reasoning of the Devs. And I bet you do, too. I just don't think you're on the up and up about it. The logical fallacies you've made above illustrate this.

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I'd rather think for myself though.

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Sounds like you're trying to think for Statesman, actually.

I don't know what the big deal is. It's a stopgap fix to an epidemic problem in the game, and something that will probably be addressed by removing the very ability to effectively let someone 9 levels below get insane XP and be practically worthless, otherwise.

I don't even think the mission is done being tampered with, but I don't think they are going to do anything deep to adjust it until after issue 4. I am surprised anything got done now.

We're probably going to see sweeping changes like a 5level cap on XP, and/or all purple mobs (no matter high higher they are) give the same XP per mob. IOW a lvl 45 mob that's 5 levels above you will give you the same XP as a mob that's 7 levels above you, because they are both a minion (or whatever) of the same con (purple).

It's not about some people wanting others to "not have fun." That's a straw man. Everyone knows it. It's the fact that this rampant powerlevelling puts a strain on the entire community. This isn't an issue about something that's occuring in a vacuum. This hurts everyone's chances of grouping normally, or even remotely normally.

I don't think many people give two hoots if a healer is unSK'd in a mission and is 6 levels below the highest person. There is a difference between a mountain and a molehill. It's the mountain any of us care about.

Let's keep this in context. Keep the logical fallacies out of this discussion.

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Im rather disgusted by changes made that affect all of us when it comes to only a few who actually abuse the game
this way.

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I totally disagree with the notion that powerlevelling is limited to a few people in the game. I hate to overuse this word, but it's rampant. On Protector practically all broadcast/request chat has been asking for wolves, arguing about powerlevelling, and mistells. Well it seems that way.

Don't mean to single you out here but you're one of many to have iterated this problem in this thread, so I wanted to comment on it:

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I have run out of available missions several times with my scrapper where I had to spend 1-1 1/2 levels street grinding or TF Cycling.

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I just don't understand how people have this problem. I've played 2 characters who've done practically every mission I can get, and I've never run into this problem. My main, who is now level 50, only had this problem by the time he was lvl 44.5 and I couldn't do any of my lvl 45 missions yet. I didn't have that problem at 38-39. I didn't have that problem at 34-35. I didn't have that problem at 29-30 either. So on and so forth. In fact I had a hard time preventing myself from outlevelling my contacts before I could do all their missions.

I did limit myself to one TF for him, starting with Bastion (namely because of that TF) so I wouldn't get sick of TF's. Did Manticore once. Numina. Eden. Sewer. Shadow Shard #2. Only once. The IP and FF respec trial just once.

I did minimal grouping with others, and practically no street hunting. I just don't see how you guys do it.

On my scrapper I have now, Who is about to ding 35, I had to get stealth in my 20's to do the least amount of things I could do in countless door missions, so that I could guarantee doing them all. I'd have them all done at lvl 25, 30 and then do a TF at that level so that I wouldn't level too quickly, so I could get to the new batch of story arcs. I don't know how I fit 1 respec trial into that.

Anyhow, I'll take any tips or pointers here, because it's aggrivating that I am so close to outlevelling my 30-35 contacts. I'm 34.7 now and I haven't finished my story arcs on my last 2 contacts. I suspect by 35.5 or so I'll have finished all their missions they can give, just in time to do the Manticore TF.

I've resorted to staying on Heroic so that I get less XP for beating mobs in missions. A scrapper on Heroic!

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Yep, again I agree with you. As even RR said himself it can be difficult to put an AV team together at times, then you actually have to defeat the AV, and the wolves, and click the glowies.

The time constraint is, as has been pointed out, not going to do a thing to curb PL'ing and only puts undue constraints on those who are just trying to finish a mission.

I really don't see what the devs were trying to accomplish here. If anything, they need to remove Shadowhunter from the mission to give people a shot beating him fairly and not miss out on a badge because of the timer. It is silly really.

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I agree with many of your comments here. It seems maybe you are interested in contributing after all. This helps temporarily, and really, we already see some measures dont on the wolf missions just by virtue of the changes to the wolves themselves, makes it a little harder to herd (requires more support). But the problem lies with the game mechanics more than any mission. I am just glad that a particular mission that's been singled out as the pre-eminent powerleveling mission, has been given a stopgap fix for. I still think that a 1 hour time limit isn't long enough. That's shorter than most timed missions in the game from lvl 20 and up.

I'd love to see a revamped Shadowhunter mission but I'll accept this change for now.

What I don't get is that so many people who advocate powerlevelling claim there's no harm. There is harm. To the game, and to the players who have alot less people to group with. I don't think even most anti-powerlevelling people have a problem with limited powerlevelling. But it's rampant in this game. I suspect we'll see a change in the XP level limit at some point. It might be 5 levels across the board or something, or maybe all purple mobs, regardless of how many levels above con they are, generate the same XP.

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No trouble at all really. What other reason is there to adjust the mission other than the fact that people were leveling alts faster than he (or maybe the accountants) cared for.

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Well at least your honest about mischaracterizing people.

It's to combat rampant powerlevelling, not to "remove fun from people who enjoy powerlevelling." Every change made in an MMO is bound to make things less fun for some people. That doesn't mean every change is MEANT to deprive people of having fun.

This is where gross misrepresntation such as the kind you foster is revealed. Thanks for being honest about it.

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As you said, he stated himself that not everyone finds the same things fun. Is it okay that people don't find the same things fun as long as he finds it fun?

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Yes it's definitely ok if some people different things fun. The problem with rampant powerlevelling is that it makes it hard for people like me and many others to legitimately group and do missions together. I would not be surprised to see the level difference for XP reviewed at some point in the future.

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You don't think it is a bit hypocritical to say "No two people find the same thing fun" and then say "I'm changing this because it's not fun"?

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What I find hypocritical is that you admit you're being dishonest but expect anyone to take you seriously. Why would anyone want to try to argue what you twist? Not me.

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So either he being a hypocrite (I do not think this is the case) or he is trying to sugar coat the real reason behind it (people leveling too fast for his taste).

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Nah I think it's just you that's being hypocritical. Maybe one day when you're ready for an honest conversation, you might have something to contribute. Right now, though, I think your comments at least have some comedic value.

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For all the ppl saying the 1 hour timer for this mission will make it too hard because of the AV really need to try the mission. I'm a lvl 48 with my mission diff maxed and I still had over 30 mins to spare when I was done. I had 3 other ppl wiht me when I did the mission so you don't need a real big team. The glowies are all real easy to find so it's not like you have to really look for them or anything. Will you be able to solo this mission in an hour? Probably not but the devs don't think we should be able to solo an AV anyway so they killed 2 birds with one stone.

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Well to be fair, because of all the rampant powerlevelling, it's taken me 20-30 minutes to form an AV team. That's just too close for my comfort. It's not like with any of my characters I can just solo an AV. I have to group with all of them to beat one. That's why I suggest 3 hours. Give us a token hour to recruit, and a bonus hour for contingencies/emergencies and an hour to really work on an AV. I think that's a fair trade for an AV mission that formerly had no time limit whatsoever.

Wow, that's the most disingenuine post I've ever seen you make, Nozy. You really outdid yourself. Not only did you fabricate context out of whole cloth, misrepresenting what Statesman said, you try to reply to your own constructs with illogical responses.

Nowhere has States said he added a timer to make the mission more fun. Furthermore he says people are naturally bound to disagree on what is fun, yet you claim he's deeming powerlevelling unfun for everyone. He says RIGHT THERE not everyone is going to agree with him.

LOL!

For someone who claims to have no problem with what he's done, you've gone to a lot of trouble to a) misrepresent him and b) insult him.

I notice we have nearly identical post counts.

One more thing, I like the idea of a time limit for the first part of the mission, the wolves, but after that, the timer goes away and you can deal with Shadowhunter at your leisure.

But you'd have to adjust it to where if that mission is reset you don't have that first part with the wolves and the timer.

That might just be too complicated though, but I like the idea.

I've already addressed some of this in our private messages to each other (lesson for others, you CAN work things out in private) but I didn't say crime wouldn't be reduced, but that crime wouldn't be stopped. You didn't understand I was talking about crime in general and that is fine. I hope that's clear to you now.

Regarding comparing something that is considered to be bad, to something else that is considered to bad, such is the nature of analogies. That's a comparison based a moral standard of right vs wrong. You don't think powerlevelling is either bad, or a crime. I think a little powerlevelling isn't bad, but rampant powerlevelling is. I also don't think it's a "crime."

Yes I agree it won't stop powerlevelling. I am under no delusion that it is. I do agree that it will reduce it some. In the very least for a limited time.

Just as if you put more cops on the streets to reduce crime, not under the delusion that it'll end all crime.

And yes I agree with your other statement about this thread losing something with all the messages being purged. Seems like several really important posts (like em or not) are now devoured by cyberspace.

AnotherDeadHero, what happened to your post to me? Did you pull it or was it pulled by a moderator?

edit: and where did mine go? Weird. I can't find the post with my analogy anywhere. Hrm.

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Really? I guess this article is wrong... Multiple studies have shown that increased patrols do in fact show that an increased presence does decrease crime.

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Wow, a straw man.

How about NOT taking me out of context?

Crime has NOT stopped. More police on the force have NOT stopped all crime on the planet. Villainy continues. That's what I said.

I did NOT say that more police doesn't help combat crime.

Let me show you my quote, so there is no confusion.

"police cracking down on crime doesn't stop criminals from breaking the law"

That's correct. Criminals will still break the law. That doesn't mean more police don't help combat crime.


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Nice analogy though, comparing power-leveling to a crime.

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Yes, pretty useful analogy. Thank you. Analogies are used to compare things that are similar. For example something frowned upon with a crime. Surely you don't think the time limit was introduced to combat something other than powerlevelling, right?


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Again, I would like to point to my earlier posts. As long as those conditions are met, there will be power leveling. If you take away the most lucrative Powerleveling mission, that just means #2 takes over and now becomes the most lucrative, thats all.

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Correct. The problem we had was the wolf mission was easier than any other, for such purposes. Now it's not as easy to powerlevel. Doesn't mean it's not easy. Nobody here believes a time limit on one mission is a cureall.

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Now the changes to the former #1 have consequences to people that are doing it legit.

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That's true, which is why I've suggested a longer time limit. I've recommended 3 hours.

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So what have you done?

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I've recommended a 3 hour time limit to the Shadowhunter mission. I think someone said it was an hour. That's too short for any AV mission.

What have you done, other than take people out of context?

I think they should lengthen the time limit to 3 hours. I hear it's one hour, which isn't enough time. Some AV's can take up to a half hour for a small team to duo or trio, or individual to solo.

But the time limit is a great way of FINALLY forcing people away from that mission to herd and powerlevel others. I've already noticed much less powerlevel spam in PI over this, and I can log my lvl 50 blaster on and not have to worry about a constant stream of tells asking me to be a boomer in a plvl group. Thanks for the timer, but make it long enough for a comfortable shot at the AV. The bones take a trivial amount of time to find, and the Wolves are still fairly easy to deal with quickly.

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I can't believe you people are defending WL PLed toons.

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I don't defender powerlevelling most of the time. Most people succumb to it a little here and there - to get to the next level, to get past a frustrating time, or whatever. The WL event was a unique event that won't happen again the way we knew it, and I think overall the fact that it was a fun event outweighs the powerlevelling aspect of it.

Quite frankly it's that powerlevelling part that made it so successful. It was a fun event with a nice payoff. Let's just help the new players who got sucked in on that, and are having problems with the game.

Though it's been 2 weeks, they should have the basics down by this point, anyways. Regardless, they are a tiny minority of players, overall.