Rooftop_Raider

No they glow red JUST like an energy melee tanker every time he punches. In the CoH trailer. In the CoV trailer. That's Energy Melee. I don't understand how the BAB would be a black, dreadlocked, INV/EM tanker, then a white, spikey-haired, INV/SS tanker. Icon can't change your power set.

It's not like we even have an explanation, like with Sister Psyche/Aurora Borealis either, for a totally dramatic appearance change. Maybe they are two different heroes with the same name. That's certainly something that is quite common in the comic book world. But I'd like to see something official, first, that the black man with energy melee powers is the BAB.

What trailers and posters have specifically said the black EM tanker is BAB? None of the trailers specifically name that character as the BAB. He could be one of a multitude of other heroes to fight alongside Statesman and the Freedom Phalanx. Maybe he's a reserve member.

I checked out the entire CoH manual and the BAB is never named. I know full well where that person shows up, but the banner he shows up in doesn't specifically name him as the BAB. But I'd like to see somewhere official that the black guy is the BAB.

I also don't see why, if the black guy IS the BAB, why he'd change his appearance so dramatically as to be a totally different race, with significantly different powers, and a totally different costume. That would be like telling me Richard Pryor changed into Gene Wilder.

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BackAlley Brawler is an INV/EM. Shows in COV trailer. No points for you! You must stay back a year!

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Actually, the guy in the trailer doesn't seem to be the Back Alley Brawler. When you play the game at higher levels you'll see his Praetorian counterpart is INV/SS. It should also be a big clue the INV/EM tank in the CoV trailer is of a different race, has a different hairstyle, different clothes, a monocle, etc.

I made a duplicate of the CoV trailer hero you speak of, and then put him side by side next to our venerable Back Street Brawler. Do you think they look similar?

PIC

On the CoV website you can CLEARLY see what the sharkman looks like by clicking on BETA TEST.

When I fought Malaise in the Calvin Scott TF he used only Mind attacks from the Controller primary. He never spawned a pet. I play a mind controller so I noticed that immediately. Does he use Illusion powers elsewhere?

Also the black man with the dreadlocks and the monocle, the metal shoulder pads, the black tanktop, he seems to have energy melee as shown in the City of Villains trailer. Some people said awhile back that's Back Alley Brawler but the attacks and appearance don't coincide at all. Does anyone know his name?

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never said It didn't. Still dosen't mean you can just stand there using them without moving. wether you're moving to engage or moving to avoid retribution for all those great AoE's you're moving. or you're meat.

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Well I never implied that, nor did the other poster who you blamed for saying "Blasters never had to reposition." My arguement is simply supporting his, that Blasters have to close distance and position less than Scrappers.

You immediately assume both of us are saying Blasters don't have to position themselves at all.

Find a quote from either one of us saying that, or drop that issue right now. That's a straw man. (not saying you're doing it intentionally, you may just be presuming out of good faith or some other implication that we believe that)

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Ahhhh there's the rub. I barely play my scrapper teamed. I use him for solo purposes and helping sgmates deal with archvillans. He's the "I don't want to be bothered with a team toon" The other 3 characters that I actively play are geared towards teaming. but they're not scrappers. 2 defenders and a fire/ss tank.

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Much the same with my Scrapper but I've still grouped quite a bit with him. You and I, because we are MA, have some disadvantages even to other Scrappers because we are a single target set. But I've always been in positions where I'm finishing off mobs from Blasters because I'm trying to play catchup. I have no ranged attacks, or long-range cones, and my PBAoE isn't spectacular. And I dont' even plan on getting Laser Eyes and Energy Torrent because they don't fit my character's profile.

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wrong. just shows that I don't buy into the scrappers have to move more bit. My scrap barely moves in combat at all...... Mostly when crane kick knocked something back a bit. and "positioning" means jack. combat jump into the middle of the pack and lay waste, wash rinse repeat. You're a fire blaster... You should know how tricky it is lining up for your opening salvo. If your personal experience leaves you to believe otherwise then so be it. but don't go trying to define my reality for me.

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I totally see what you're saying, and yes Breath has a skinnier cone than attacks like Energy Torrent. Bottom line though is that it still covers a much larger area of effect than point blanks attacks have.

So yes a Fire Blaster would have to position himself more than an Energy Blaster. But you can still get alot more mobs in the area of Fire Breath than you can with other Scrapper cone attacks. Closest I can think of that compares is Eviscerate, and it's a pale shadow of Fire Breath at that.

Do Scrappers have much more defense than Blasters, and have an easier time? Definitely. But that has nothing to do with the facts surrounding range and area of effect.

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Oddly enough, I'd say our larger-area-effect blasts actually end up being MORE of a danger to us. If a Scrapper wings six mobs with his PBAoE, good and well. If I rake six mobs with Frost Breath (barring a nicely packed group around a tank, a good shot), in the average combat every single one of those mobs can faceplant me inside 3 hits. Six mobs. Three hits. No real defenses, other than outright killing them. Oops. If it's a well packed group, I can hit far more. Pray I don't get their attention doing so. Oddly enough, dropping a few and wounding the others tend to get the others to pay MUCH more attention to me... Ask any Blaster how many bad words he uses seeing a group only wounded by your best shot- and returning fire.

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Good points, all of it.

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I'm not evading jack.

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Oh I'm Jack now, am I?

Seriously, I think you make great points on the area of defense in combat. That unforatuntely has little to do with the issue of range and positioning.

Does Fire Breath and Ball have a greater area of effect than Dragon's Tail, Spin, Eviscerate and Shadow Maul?

Yes.

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Spine burst, throw spines, ripper, and quills? ombustion, breath of fire, and fire sword circle? Compare apples to apples here, when you compare the AOE sets AR and fire are a bit ahead of spines and fire melee, but not much, and the latter two have an order of magnitude better ability to deal with return fire.

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Sure, and that's not what I am arguing. I am merely explaining that Blasters have longer range and much larger areas of effect than Scrappers do, which show how Blasters don't have to run around positioning themselves to get all the mobs in a short little cone or PBAoE.

I'm not arguing who has better defenses. But instead of others refuting my points about range and AoE radius, the issue is deflected to "well scrappers have better defense."

Seriously, tell me something I don't know.

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If you're going to compare non-aoe focused sets, I don't think you'll find much arguement that even claws, broadsword, and katana can pretty much wipe the floor with elec, ice, or energy in effective pre-nuke aoe damage.

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In a tight area, where all the mobs are herded into the 5-melee range of influence that scrappers have, yes those sets will compare well, and certainly Scrappers will do better with their defense than a Blaster would surrounded by those mobs.

That's a totally separate arguement. I think it's silly to tell me I am wrong on something, and the counter arguements have nothing to do with disproving Blaster attacks have much greater range and area than Scrapper attacks.

Defense is a red herring in this issue of range and positioning.

I don't think you get it, yet. The arguement is that Blasters have to position themselves less than Scrappers do in combat. Blasters have to run around less to attack new mobs, or runners.

I'm asking you guys to disprove that. What you are doing is saying, I'm wrong, but the reason why I am wrong is because of defense. That's a totally separate issue.

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there's no comparison RR. Dragon's tail, why? it's being used by a hero who can deal it with damn little risk son.

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I can always tell when you're on edge. Son.

Anyhow, you're still evading the point that Blasters do more damage across much larger areas with their attacks. Bringing up defense is a red herring. Either Dragon's Tails is a more damaging attack or it isn't. It's not. Either Power Blast has greater range than Storm Kick, or it doesn't. Either Full Auto has a greater range than Shadow Maul or it doesn't.

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And you might want to ask some other scrapper

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You'll do wonderfully for me. Fireball alone does more damage than Dragon's Tail, and covers a wider area. Add Fire Breath to that, and Dragon's Tail can't compare. When I ask you which does more damage, you can't sit here and argue Dragon's Tail does, and expect anyone to believe you.

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Mine has invincibility. I can get a whole rooms attention and deal out my one pbaoe with impunity.

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Sure, and a Blaster will be done with it in 3 seconds with Inferno, and move on, and you'll still be there for a minute or more spin-kicking.

I, for one, think it's funny that arguements on what is a more powerful attack, are being deflected by arguements by "well Scrappers have more defenses."

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Doubly so for energy. Add "extra repositioning to compensate or allow for knockback to not scatter everything", and I'd have to say us blasters reposition just as much, if not sometimes more [repositioning != "tab+follow", its actual moving around to get to the right spot] than scrappers.

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Okay now have a Scrapper chase down all those mobs blown about by Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast.

See the difference?

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You, sir, are wrong. So a scrapper has to switch targets, hit Follow, and suddenly he's in range. Big deal. I weep for you.

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Hey I am just stating facts, not getting emotional. I think you instigating flames doesn't do anything for your arguements. The key thing is, you don't deny that a scrapper has to close range to attack targets. How can you say that is wrong when you agree to it?

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You refer to AoE attacks. Have you actually used cone AoEs?

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Another classic Appeal to Authority question. We must be having a special this week on pithy comments. Bill O'Reilly would be proud.

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In a perfect world, all the mobs would stay in one nice clump where they can all be easily mowed down by Full Auto.

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Sure but Full Auto is still going to do much more damage over a greater area than Shadow Maul. Either that's right or wrong. What is it? I expect you to support my claim with your answer, too, followed by a statement that trivializes Full Auto.

The bottom line is that Blaster cones cover a much larger area than melee cones. For Scrappers to get that level of effectiveness they need all the mobs around them for the PBAoE's like Dragon's Tail, or stack all the mobs in front of them for cones like Shadow Maul, Slice, etc. You can't sit here and tell me I'm wrong but a) back up my point on one area then b) sidestep it in another.

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Past the initial attack (and sometimes even on the initial attack) a blaster has to constantly reposition (hopefully they have SS!). Otherwise, they risk wasting endurance, drawing too much aggro while they're immobilized, hitting mobs in the group behind the group they're targeting, etc.

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Even if the mobs scatter a little bit, the much larger area effect attacks still require the Blaster to reposition themselves less. I think that issue has some legs with regards to knockback AoE's like Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast. But even then a scrapper would have to run about far more often in order to attack those scattered mobs than a Blaster would, or try to herd them up to fit in his melee cones and PBAoE's.

This is a simple issue of math. The square footage of Blaster AoE's is dramatically greater than the melee AoE's. The distance of 80ft is much greater than the distance of 5ft. The advantage of instantly switching the targets and not needing to closing in (an arguement you ceded) is still there even if you trivialize it. That's all I am saying. Decrying simple facts just because you don't think they are that important to you doesn't make those facts go away. Don't tell me I'm wrong and then cede or acquiesce to what I've said.

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An AoE blaster has to constantly worry about range, angle, timing, etc. to make sure that they only hit what they mean to hit and that they do hit all that they want to -- all while trying to avoid mobs that can easily mez them and kill them.

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None of that counters the argument that Blasters are much more effective at damaging large areas than scrappers. None of that counters the arguement that Blasters have to close range much less often. All that does is argue that there are times when Blasters are going to be in unsafe situations where they can't always use their AoE attacks.

The whole point of AoE's is to hit as many groups as possible with them to do more damage. Blasters have alot less to worry about with range, angle, and timing than scrappers do because their AoE's have much greater area and range. If a Blaster is trying to blast with no control or aggro management from the team, then he better defeat those mobs with his attacks.

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Scrappers have no harder of a time positioning and repositioning than Blasters do.

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It would have helped you so much to not drop a bombshell in your own arguement.

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and as someone who relies on a cone pbaoe combo I disagree.

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I have a lvl 45 MA scrapper too, and you're welcome to disagree. Doesn't bother me in the least.

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besides. scrappers move to engage.

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Exactly. And Blasters don't have to move nearly as often as scrappers for positioning.

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blasters move to save their damned lives.

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That's a separate issue. Blasters have to move less to position themselves, need to close distance less often. Let's keep the "Blaster has no Defense" issue out of the "Who does more closing in and positioning" discussion.

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At worst the scrapper has to chase his foe.

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So what's the problem recognizing that Scrappers have to position themselves more than Blasters? Dragon's Tail, Spin, Whirling Sword have less radius than target AoE attacks like Fire Blast and Ball Lightning. Melee cones like Shadow Maul, Slice and Eviscerate don't compare to Flamethrower, Fire Breath, Frost Breath and Energy Torrent.

Tell me Heph, what is more effective for taking out a group? Fire Breath and Fireball, or Dragon's Tail?

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With the blaster enviromental control and awareness are paramount. one mistake and you're pushing up more flowers than an FTD gift shop.

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True, and that's a separate issue. But it's incorrect for anyone to claim that scrappers don't have to spend more time positioning, closing in, and chasing mobs than Blasters do. This is an arguement about damage, not damage vs defense. Clearly Blasters have an advantage by having AoE's and cones with much larger range and area of effect. Blasters don't have to move around as much to acquire, and fire on, new targets because of this.

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I don't think the damage is our problem. We do plunty of damage. The problem is the No Defence, No Resistance, less health, No mez Protection for Scrapper amount of damage. Give us a little resistance, a little Defence, a little mez protection and you have balance.

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Well I'll differ just a little bit here. Our problem is that we can't sustain an attack chain at range. And AoE's are a poor way of sustaining a single target attack chain. Even with Perma Hasten and a single target-specific set like Energy I still have pauses between Power Bolt, Blast and Burst.

For me to have a steady attack chain, I have to stop being a ranged specialist and add in melee attacks.

I think that's something the Devs can address.

I honestly don't believe the Devs are going to give us any actual defense or status protection anywhere in our sets. That's a problem we're going to have to live with. Statesman even said the protection in Burn was an oversight, and that was iffy at best. I think the APP's is the best we're going to get in that regards. They want this to be a team-centric game and I'd be highly surprised if they shifted focus like that.

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Thank you, Rooftop. While my [censored] is indeed good, that's exactly what I'm saying.

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I try.

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blasters don't have to reposition themselves?

you're smoking the good [censored].

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He's not arguing that as an absolute. Rather, he's saying that Blasters don't have to meticulously position himself because of a small range (PBAoE compared to the larger AoE of a Blaster target AoE attack, 5ft cone range compared to 40ft cone range)

He is also saying Blasters don't have to move around as much to acquire, and fire on, new targets. Read again this part:

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When fighting a large group, the blaster can continuously pump out ranged attacks without spending much time positioning himself. This (plus their noteable disposition towards AoEs) suggests that blasters are better suited at doing damage to multiple minions. Overall the blaster is throwing more raw damage downrange than the scrapper, usually multiplied over groups of targets.

When fighting a single target, a scrapper excels over a blaster as the scrapper must spend an initial period closing with the target, then may hope to remain there. Switching targets and repositioning for melee reach slows the scrapper's attacks down, decreasing DPS

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Well once you have SO's you only need to 3-4 slot Fly. 4 slots puts you at the speed cap for Fly.

To OracleTX, I think it's great we have melee options in our secondaries. Alot of us built Blasters to be able to just smack mobs upside the head in melee as well as range. I think the better solution is to make the ranged attacks better.

Let's all be realistic here. The most dramatic changes to power sets, like the animation times and name changes of Martial Arts and Katana, still left the core powers the same. I don't think we're going to see a dramatic restructuring of our powers, only an improvement or reduction in quality of them.

I don't think we'll see our melee attacks turned into range attacks. I don't think we'll see Volt Sentinel moved anywhere or changed. I don't think Freeze Ray is going to be replaced with an ice snipe power, etc.

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And guess what, folks! Check the current training room patch notes. Super Speed and Super Leap have a -%50 accuracy, in PvP and PvE, the same as Flight.

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It's my understanding that Fly only has a 15% ACC penalty.

edit: Ah, I found Vyvyanne's post where she said it's 50%.

I was spoiled playing an Energy Blaster. I had Power Bolt and Blast which shared the same range. I also had a third attack option with Power Burst, something that has no equivilent in Electric. Add to that, I had a snipe that has no equivilent in Ice. I can lead off with that in small groups, then switch to the other attacks to finish off the remainder.

Basically I had my snipe AND a good attack chain, and even with perma-Hasten I still couldn't stay at range and fire non-stop. I can't stay in my element, and be an effective single target damage dealer.

I'd like to stay in range and attack non stop at least with perma hasten

Well the main disadvantage that Blasters have is that their primary attacks don't allow them to have continuous attack chain with single target damage. Take for example that Electric primary. Two attacks, Charged Bolts and Lightning Bolt. No Sniper attack gives good DPS with a 6 second delay, interruptable to boot.

Best you have is Ice, and it doesn't have a sniper attack - the only Blaster primary to be without. What does it have in it's slot? A hold that does minor damage - 1/4th the damage of Brawl.

So what do Blasters have to do in order to have remotely comparable DPS to Scrappers? Get in melee range and use secondary attacks or power pool attacks. And even then (as shown by some highly detailed posts recently) the DPS trails behind even Martial Arts scrappers for single target damage.

Going into melee range makes us lose any defensive advantage we might have being in range.

We have to deal with PBAoE's now like Foot Stomp, Siesmic Smash and Spin, and melee cones like Slash and Eviscerate, and even short range cones like Energy Torrent and Psi Scream which are often aimed at tankers or scrappers in melee range.

We have much less risk of skirting that stuff merely to sustain an attack chain.

I didn't misread what you wrote. I didn't even criticize your view. I could care less about it. I just challenged you directly to prove your false claim that Heph want's anything like God Mode for Blasters.

You said specifically:

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WAY too many posters in this Thread are just crying "GodMode me !!!" like it's the only way they think they can be Balanced. ..Especially Heph who's back for his usual song and dance on the subject.

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So prove it. Find anywhere where Heph has asked for anything like God Mode. You're the one that made the outright silly claim. He's made numerous posts for at best, modest (if not situational) defense, and a few posts specifically arguing _against_ things like status protection or scrapper durability.

If you're going to make WILD and OUTLANDISH claims against someone, you better find a way of proving it. There was no need for that from you.

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Or better yet go look in the Defender Forum. Search Key Words: "r u healer?" It suprised me too, but a lot of Defenders are recruited for a team zones-apart and then kicked off a team as soon as they make the trek to the zone the team lead is in and the Lead finds out their Primary, especially Team leads who are blasters or building the team for their Blaster friend.

REDICULOUS...how hard is it to righclick a Defender's name in the 'Find' box and pick the "chat" option and ask them "What's your Primary?" first before inviting them and then crucifying them for not taking Empath?

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I was in that thread and it's worse than that. This dynamic makes for some jaded Defenders. The other end of that is you have some Defenders, even Empaths, turning down team invites because they feel they are pidgeonholed into being healers only. Nevermind that most Defender sets provide buffs and/or debuffs and provide other ways of defending teammates.

I, for one, am sick of the jaded people on both sides. I am glad they represent a minority though. Most of us players just want to get along.

It's not my opinion that the immobilize is nearly 100%, that's what alot of testing showed. I kept mobs locked in place for a long time with it just letting them try to hit me, follow me, etc.

Regarding Heph, you're going to have to build a better case against him than that. He's argued for modest defense and in particular in the Blaster Update thread he's argued against status protection. He went to great lengths to argue against scrapper-level durabilty.

Now, I generally disagree with Heph on alot if things, but you're out of your mind if you think he wants a) Godmode or b) scrapper-level defenses.

I defy you to find a quote from him saying he wants just that.

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However as it stands, Fire Sword Circle does 5.1 brawls worth of damage. That is nearly more damage than ball lightning and short circuit, that is more damage than any other single AoE that is not a final power. a mine, or fallout.

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The thing is, it does more damage than Total Focus if two mobs are used. Combustion does more damage than Total Focus if three mobs are used. What if there are a half dozen mobs? A dozen? Two dozen? That's a nice amount of damage.

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Yes, its not usefull without someone locking down mobs or taking the aggro, no, that does not mean its useless. Fire/Fire has an 11 second total activation chain that does 18 brawls worth of damage AoE, that is nothing to scoff at.

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True, I get Fire Breath, Ball, Combustion, and FireSword Circle under the boost that Aim and Buildup provides. I put Burn at the end of the attack chain since it's not effected by such buffs.