Robot_Lawyer

States,

It is a good thing that you've slightly increased the amount of resistence to fire damage in Permafrost and while others bring up good points (points that I mostly agree with) about the need for at least some static defense (in addition to resistence) to fire, I think a great deal of the issue would not be so sensitive to us if the amount of Cold and fire damage were closer to being balanced in the game.

Villian groups that use fire: Hellions, Council, Outcasts, CoT's, Nemesis, Vahzilok (I believe their toxic spit is actually registered as a fire attack with toxic damage)...am I forgetting any?

Villian groups that use cold attacks: Outcasts, Crey...am I forgetting any?

AND, let's not forget that there is an entire end-game AV, Infernal, who uses fire along with his minions. Add to that a new fire-themed event in Steel Canyon which has the Hellions burning down buildings.

I think that part of the gripe that the Ice Tanker community has is that there just isn't balance in the game and part of it is not in the powersets, but in the villians. Yes, we have by far the highest resistence to cold damage... but so what...there is hardly any cold damage to contend with anyway. It would be easy to swallow our low ability to survive fire if our high ability to survive cold meant something.

Because of this, I would really like to see a dramtatic increase in the amount of cold-based attacks in the game, perhaps even a villian group who uses almost exclusively cold attacks...and it would be really nice to have an end-game AV whose entire theme was bent around ice as well.

Every powerset has something that they can have as their claim-to-fame. In used to be that Ice was the defense set. But now with the lowering of our defense and the reality of purple inspirations, the only thing that Ice has a total advantage over other tanks is in cold resistence and its secondary effect slow resistence (although a stone tank with granite is a defacto equal to ice in cold resistence with Granite)...so really the only thing that ice is superior in is resistence to slow.... We don't even own cold damage resistence.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I hope so. Dramatically increase the presence of cold damage in the game... make it meaningful... and I think some of the "problem" with Ice tanks would be solved without having to change the set.

[ QUOTE ]

All the test results I have seen say that while soloing will still be possible in I5, you will be a Debt-Monger if you try to team. NO WONDER THEY HALVED THE DEBT IF YOU DO MISSIONS!!!



[/ QUOTE ]

I have heard this a lot too. But have you actually played on test? Most people haven't. "People" are right saying that this is a massive nerf. But this game is still very playable in teams on test. Don't start falling for something because everyone is saying it. Actually go play on test. You'll notice a big difference...but you can still team and win.

[ QUOTE ]
Robot_Lawyer,

If I5 goes live with the current changes, including the changes Statesman has offered so far, here is my planned respec.



[/ QUOTE ]

I notice you have Steam (Counterstrike) running...I'll see you in Dust_2 with my Deagle Also, you need to hit the yellow "update" icon

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Taking the defense out of Wet Ice has not freed up 5 slots for us to reassign, it has actually cost us an additional 5 slots because we have to take Permafrost and because it is so pathetic we have to slot Health too.

[/ QUOTE ]

And Tough slotted out too.

And I'm sorry, Ice Patch is useful, yes. But overall, from the perspective of an Ice Armor Tanker, its as useful as Fault from Stone Melee, and Hand Clap from Super Strength. So I think to claim that a primary is balanced around a secondary is not at all correct. Ice Patch is, in fact, as useful to any primary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me restate what I said. I didn't say that I thought the Devs did balance the primaries with the secondaries in mind, I said that a compelling case could be made that, in certain cases, they did.

Further thoughts on the combination of Ice/Ice:

Not only does Ice Patch offer the already mentioned benefits and doesn't need a to-hit role *cough* and can be powered out three at a time (with recharge slotts)... But /Ice also has other mitigation/controll in Freezing Touch (hold) and the craptacular power Frozen Aura (AoE sleep). And don't underestimate the slow effect of the melee attacks. Frost's slow lasst somewhere around 10 seconds and Freezing Touch lasts as long as the hold does. If I remeber correctly, the other attacks' chill lasts almost exactly as long as it takes the power to recharge (without Hasten) providing a slight overlap. So, all told, you can stack 5 /ice slows on a target at once. Let's guess and say that the /ice slow effects is a 5% -recharge (this is a total guess...I have not done any testing to produce this number).... thats an additional 25% -recharge.... added to Ice Patch, the hold and the sleep aura.

Again, I don't think that secondaries play a big part in the I5 balancing, but I do think that they are out there somewhere in the back of the Dev's minds as they do things--or at least when they originally created the sets
-------------------------------------------

To anyone who cares to hear my I5 experiences:

I like to test my Ice tank against Infernal's throne room because it has a lot of fire, our weakness, and because I've done it enough in I3, I4 and on test to keep a mental comparison going. I have always had great fun making builds that can solo this room set for a full team (the room, not the AV) In fact, some of my favorite Ice moments have been watching the Invulnerability tanks drop while I stay standing in this room--its sick of me to enjoy this, i know. It is in considering my ability to do this room that I understand the need for some kind of nerf to be taking place--an ice tank should not be able to take that room...I am just shocked, like everyone else, at how massive the nerfs were. In I5 this room is definately harder than in pevious issues but there are a few things that I have found to be of great value.

--Slot Health. The difference in your regeneration rate is significant. If you dont take Permafrost (or even if you do) this will be your only serious power against fire attacks.

--Yes, take Tough. There has been much debate for a long time in the ice community about Tough. Regardless of where you fall, this power works and saves you pain.

--Consider taking Frozen Arua (notice I say "consider"). At least for Infernal's throne room, this power slotted out is very useful. It negates the spawns and lets you focus on the portal. Unfortunately, I can't find very many other times when this power comes in handy

--Consider slotting out Ice Patch with recharges. Its a heavy cost (the slotts) but having multiple patches around can be a life saver.

--Consider slotting out Hibernate with recharges. I hate the cowardly nature of this power and have, several times, let myself die with the team rather that use this and abandon everyone like that. But, in I5, I find this power to be more necessary, sadly. I think I remember the recharge to be around 16 seconds fully slotted (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and unfortunatley, Ive had to use it back to back in I5 already.

If you'll notice, the above suggestions are following a pattern; they focus on Power Pool and Secondary powers. What a sad state when its my secondaries that make the big difference.

In fact, I have already decided that when I5 goes live I will be making an Ice/Fire tank--a toon with no controll powers in the secondary--and seeing how things play out.

I have an Ice/Ice and for 90% of the game, Ice Patch is one of, if not THE, most powerful tool you have to stay alive. I wouldnt be suprised if that one power were a large factor in the decisions that have been made over the last year and a half.

Do I think all primaries are "balanced" with their corresponding secondaries in mind? No... but consider this:

It is quite obvious that some powersets are made around their secondaries. Take Fire/Fire for example. The fire/ version of build-up affects the tankers fire attacks... but not burn. This makes the real use of the power to buff the secondary, not the primary.

And consider an Elec/elec blaster. The endurance drain of elec/ is clearly "balanced", imo, under the assumption that both Elec primary and secondary are taken together. Short Circuit and Thunderous Blast are highly complimented by Power Sink, making the combination far more powerful (for end drain, elec's defacto purpose) than any other combination.

Obviously, people pick whatever primary and secondary they like. But I think Fire/Fire, Elec/Elec and Ice/Ice all make compelling cases for the arguement that the devs do strongly consider secondaries when "balancing" primaries.
-------------------------------------------

As far as Permafrost goes...

I have seen a lot of people say that it is going to continue to be useless and that they are not going to take it. To this I say, yes, it is a pathetic power but with I5 you pretty much have to take it. In I5, Ice tanks now have no defense to fire damage outside of EA. And I don't think I have to tell you how little defense EA is going to give in real gameplay.

Think of it this way. If you went out to dinner and paid money for a meal and the waitor brought you a steak that was only 1/8 of an ounce (Permafrost), you'd be pissed. But if you are in the wilderness, starving and cold and someone offers you a single bite of steak, you take it greatfully.... We're in the wilderness, people. Guess we gotta take whats given to us, or starve.

Taking the defense out of Wet Ice has not freed up 5 slots for us to reassign, it has actually cost us an additional 5 slots because we have to take Permafrost and because it is so pathetic we have to slot Health too.

States,

Thanks for answering some of our questions.

Two things:

1) In the interest if Ice Armor, I'd like to once again pleeeeeeaaasse ask for changes to Devourning Earth eminators, specifically Quartz--enhances their accuracy/to-hit buff. I know you're implimenting changes to villian accuracy but, in this case, it is not nearly enough. When you're doing testing with your ice builds please run up against large groups of Devourning Earth and go against groups of DE that are lower level than you (somewhere around -5 or more). You will find that with eminators, even -5 DE can hit you easily. I have been against -9 DE on a couple occassions and been hit continually (around a dozen times) before defeating the DE. In the past, you've given the enimators less health to try and solve this. This solution doesn't work however because DE can literally lay new eminators as fast as you can kill them (especially us Ice/Ice tanks). Seems like now would be a good time to lower the buff from quartz eminators. (Might not be a bad time to look into lowering the defense debuff of Rularuu a bit too)

2) Are we going to get any comment from you concerning Ice Tanks and PvP. It really is to the point of being silly how poorly we perform in this area. I (and many others) have posted on this so I won't bore you with stuff you already know, but a comment such as "changes are coming" or "things are working as intended" would be appreciated.

Thanks.

P.S...How do you and Geko resolve issues in your "meetings"? Do you play console fighting games, winner take all?... Thumb wrestle? Curious minds need to know

It would be really nice to get an up or down on Wet Ice and Energy Absorb. Our numbers show them to be providing no meaningful defense. So....uh...States, are they (on test) "working as intended"?

Thx for the clarification, Geko.

FYI, to a previous poster, not all ice armors have resistence to slow. Only Wet Ice and EA give that.