QuiJon

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Except the change doesnt touch the true problems.

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Depends on what you think the problems are. Most of the problems are a matter of perception especially to those who are playing lower level kheldians or those who have never played them. My only problems with kheldians are

1) human form is not as viable as nova and dwarf forms at lower levels
2) the penalty in human and nova form make soloing difficult at lower levels
3 power pools cannot be used when in nova and dwarf form

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Fine they want to promote teaming, well fine how bout atleast making equal bonus for all AT to us. If your a Warshade damage dealers increase your damage, but a PB its tankers and defenders. THat is hardly fair. More often then not there are more blasters and scrappers on a team then tankers, and vice versa, the link should just provide and equal boost to both damage and defense for every person on the team rather then making your performance predicated on having 2 tankers so that my damage is atleast level. So instead of 10 percent or whatever per right teammate how bout 5 percent to each for each teammate.

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Its not a matter of fairness. When the devs proposed the two ATs, they stated that Peacebringers would be more defensive while Warshades would be more offensive. Giving them the exact same bonus begins to blur the lines between the two of them. I went with a warshade because it was more offensively oriented and the link reflects that.

Warshades are to Peacebringers what Scrappers are to Tankers or what Blasters are to Defenders.

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Also the slotting is a big issue, and the lack of powers. I kinda feel that the forms should reflect how you have slotted your human. Atleast on PB almost every attack availible in forms is availible in nova and dwarf. So instead of making us slot everything a ton, now bout have the bonuses to nova and dwarf damage and accuracy based on how we slotted the human equivilent. If then i wanted a higher damage dealing toon, i would have more damage on the powers, and by changing to nova i get a bonus on that for losing everyother power i have. Likewise to dwarf in exchange for the resistance the human attacks do less damage, but you have mez resistnace etc that you dont have human. That then makes keeping forums for versatility viable while allowing you to make a human that is also viable. The forms then become a alternate that have a inherent bonus and weakness. Nova would do more damage then your human can, but have no defense, and dwarf would do less damage, but have a taunt and resistances and a self heal. still leaving space to take control powers, and so forth, but making forms as good as you concentrated on those powers in human form.

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As it stands you do get a bonus for using dwarf and nova forms.

The nova form has a higher dps than most blasters. It is also more accurate and you can improve its accuracy without slotting the individual damage powers or picking up tactics or targeting drone. You also get built in stamina and combat flight.

The tank form gives you complete status protection and capped resistance (if slotted) without having to run multiple toggle powers. Not only is it a bonus over your human form but no tanker can run status protection and have capped resistances for running one toggle. Like nova form, you get build in endurance recovery.

Even though you get more powers, slotting is not a big issue unless you have the philosopgy that anything worth slotting must be six-slotted. It would be nice to have more slots but looking at my level 50 build, I have enough slots to go around.

In the case of peacebringers and warshades who go human form only, they only get 2 more powers than a normal AT so it is not even an issue.

Your suggestion has some merit but its highly unlikely the devs are going to implement a major change concerning how the forms work unless Kheldians are hopelessly broken. They aren't though they need a few fixes to make them less frustrating at lower levels.

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Its that kinda of thing i think can save these ATs from just ultimately being ignore as new AT come out. The shapeshifting was a great idea(though not fond of the look of a squid) but in trying to implement it, its crippling to do anything but.

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You're finding it crippling to do things while others do not. Maybe, its not the AT. It could be that kheldians don't fit your playstyle.

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I understand your points to the benefits of the forms, but i think that your mistaken if you beleive that a unslotted or poorly slotted nova form will out damage a well slotted blaster. In the early game you might be correct, but since you dont have any blasters listed on your sig, here is an example of what i think is probly typical blaster slotting for the 2 primary and secondary sets.
Energy/Energy Slotting I know there are some wierd looking ones in there but they all represent atleast damage as part of the attributes. But i think it makes my point, typical blasters with no defense everything goes into damage. Nova also no defense, but cant afford to make the damage its most due to slotting concerns for the character as a whole.

Now i know that it is hard to compare a level 30 to a level 50 but i think my point can be made in simply saying that nova offers a 20 percent bonus to damage. So as the game progesses, leaving off even one SO on each nova power has essentially put you below the damage of a corridsponding blaster power. And almost every blaster i have ever seen, has atleast a set of 5-6 attacks slotted 6 with 5 damages and 1 accuarcy. Some in the device set with Targeting drones have 6 damages or i have even seen some run leadership for accuracy. But essentially if you have less then 5 Damages on a nova power they are going to come in below a blaster attack of equal magnitude. Which is why i believe that really requiring slots for human power, nova, dwarf, and normal pools, is crippling the character. Fine its versatility, well to make human form usable like all AT stamina is needed, but then to play in nova its needed there also (the slotting i mean) as well as on dwarf.

Looking at peace bringers i really see to me that honestly i think they were ment to represent the hybrid of a blaster, scrapper, tanker. Where Warshades are definately more blaster controler. The reason why i suggest that the human team bonus be the same for each, more then fairness is that it prevents your dynamic from changing mid stream as players come and go, or even get a map disconnect mid game. To say some AT will boost damage, others defense sounds good on paper im sure, but in practice is bad. Especially when there is no way to fair split the bonus so that one type is not always below or above the other. Both AT inflict damage in some way, both have the same defense penelties the benefit from the team should be thesame for each. not only that I really dont like the idea that on a team heavey in damage, i can be safer then the blasters, yet be doing less to help the team. With me getting a defense bonus from them, i would have a problem that they die while i live, yet i was doing less damage, and contributing less to the team then they were.

You said youhave a level 50 build for your toon, i would like to see it actually. I have not talked to anyone that has made multiform work well in higher levels. Point in fact tonight I actually respeced out of forms completely. I took everything and put it into human form. I was surprised even soloing how much easier it is then it was in the earlier game, and that just brings a new debate that this AT is totally dependant on the respec. No other AT really requires the respec as much as kheldians do. I understand that people will say they can play them just fine, but in playing with a couple at higher levels with my 50, from my stand point the two i have that kept forms, not only could i way out damage, but no aspect of there character contributed anything to the team. I was just to polite to tell them to their faces. And i would imagine that the same is true for many players that reach higher levels that have come to live with players that have bad builds, they just have come to ignore them.

When i discuss these subject everyone instantly thinks i hate keldians, i dont i am playing mine still rather then shelfing it like so many others have, but i see real problems going undiscussed because so many gave up on them, and seemingly those still playing them almost more then wanting to genuinely look at the AT and its problems, want to convince the world there something unique to a team. Well i hate to say it i dont think they are and i think alot of people agree with me they just dont see the point in discussing it. The forums are littered with posts about end problems, trouble completing normal mission, the void hunters, slotting problems and limitations, and the same handful of people chime in every time saying "oh there not that bad you just must not play them well" Well there not that bad if you do the exact right thing to make them work, but then we get into the whole flavor of the month issue and well they were supose to be versatile, have many different options inspiring many differnt builds. And that just isnt the case and i think the devs should be opening there eyes to that.

Statesman responded they can do a "little bit of everything". ok that i do agree with. They can do basic tanking, basic blasting, have one heal, one control power. But then goes on to say that in the right team can have unseen damage, and defense. Well first if they want us to team, how bout in any team and get good benefits, secondly that just to me solidifies that the devs themselves feel that the only way they reach there true merit is to not use forms, since teaming lends them no benefit. That doesnt sound very versatile.

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Kyrin,

Please post your build so that the rest of us playing a Warshade can take a look at the unique build you've come up with that is useful. After many test respecs at L28 I'm not seeing any lights at the end of the tunnel other than a train.

Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"

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My build may not help you much especially at level 28. Warshades like most controllers are late bloomers. Things didn't start to turn around for me until I picked up Dark Extraction at level 32. I also did a few things that you might not want to do especially if you are not planning on using all three forms. You can find my build in the same thread as my Warshade Three Form Guide.

Those of us happy with our kheldians, despite the issues with them, are not sticking our heads in the sand. We're just more patient with the AT and willing to wait for the proposed change the devs said they would make for Kheldians around Issue 4.

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Except the change doesnt touch the true problems.

Fine they want to promote teaming, well fine how bout atleast making equal bonus for all AT to us. If your a Warshade damage dealers increase your damage, but a PB its tankers and defenders. THat is hardly fair. More often then not there are more blasters and scrappers on a team then tankers, and vice versa, the link should just provide and equal boost to both damage and defense for every person on the team rather then making your performance predicated on having 2 tankers so that my damage is atleast level. So instead of 10 percent or whatever per right teammate how bout 5 percent to each for each teammate.

Also the slotting is a big issue, and the lack of powers. I kinda feel that the forms should reflect how you have slotted your human. Atleast on PB almost every attack availible in forms is availible in nova and dwarf. So instead of making us slot everything a ton, now bout have the bonuses to nova and dwarf damage and accuracy based on how we slotted the human equivilent. If then i wanted a higher damage dealing toon, i would have more damage on the powers, and by changing to nova i get a bonus on that for losing everyother power i have. Likewise to dwarf in exchange for the resistance the human attacks do less damage, but you have mez resistnace etc that you dont have human. That then makes keeping forums for versatility viable while allowing you to make a human that is also viable. The forms then become a alternate that have a inherent bonus and weakness. Nova would do more damage then your human can, but have no defense, and dwarf would do less damage, but have a taunt and resistances and a self heal. still leaving space to take control powers, and so forth, but making forms as good as you concentrated on those powers in human form.

Its that kinda of thing i think can save these ATs from just ultimately being ignore as new AT come out. The shapeshifting was a great idea(though not fond of the look of a squid) but in trying to implement it, its crippling to do anything but.

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Af for kheldians being better or worse than any AT, it all comes down opinion. Kheldians are not meant to be better than normal ATs, they are meant to be different and challenging. In the hands of the right player they do surprisingly well at high levels. In the hands of someone who has been powerleveled or tries to play the kheldian like he is a standard AT then they are problematic.

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I think this is probably the most concise statement about the Kheldians in this thread so far.

The reason you have to get to 50 to 'unlock' a Kheldian is that MOST (gods I hope) of the people who can get to 50 not only understand their characters but the game and the role of the Archtypes.

They are CHALLENGING to play right out of the box, unlike any of the other AT's. And playing them "Well" (nebulous term) means understanding all 5 of the 'basic' AT's roles well...

If you need/want a specific role to play then Kheldians are OBVIOUSLY not for you. But the mistake that I see made is that Kheldians are some kind of 'reward' for achieving 50.. Endgame material or something. I think that if they opened the AT to any player then they would be terrible. Kheldian players SHOULD never make n00b mistakes and SHOULD understand the game well.

Personally I just LIKE having a role to fulfil so although I have both a PB and WS that I've tried out.. I still play my other alts more.

Other AT's as they become available may tempt me more but for now... meh.

They seem well suited to what they do (though there is an aweful lot of complaints about WS endurance... Or lack therof )

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You just made my point exactly. I played a blaster for 900 hours to reach level 50 i know exactly what my role is and how to play on team. I have played scrappers, defender, controlers, other blasters, A tanker is about the only AT i never really got into. I know its not a reward exactly but the fact that more and more people that can make kheldians are saying exactly what you say "meh" to me means there is a problem. If alot of people are saying meh, and just shelfing the toon, then what was the point? And if so how bout looking at making some changes to attact people to the AT. It has been done, the epp, the changes to tankers, and scrappers, all were to attract people to play other ATs and not just to play the flavor or the month builds. Yet Kheldians are totally flavor of the month. There progression seems very limited. And i know that plenty of people went all human or whatever, but the vast majority that i have seen and played with take nova at level 6 slot it up well and play almost totally squid for 20 levels, then they have dwarf slotted some, and go between, and theneither have to respec and lose all forms to make a human or just have nothing to look forward to in powers because they play from teh forms and nothing else helps or is needed.

I do understand the strenghts the forms offer in early game play, i soloed 20 levels in abou 14 days in nova with the slider turned up a notch. I have tanked through the respec mission with dwarf. But even on a team my human damage was doing less then a level 12 blaster that was ablet o slot those powers. And that is on a team with the link. The expense of slotting forms comes at the expense of character development out side of forms. What i was hoping for from states and maybe should have asked more directly was a idea of how in testing they built there toons, how they choose to fill in for roles, and why they built something versatile yet limited it so much that its not. But by the sound of it there off developing other ATs now so the fact is this AT will prob not be seeing alot of tweaking beyond what is already planned. And that is to bad, it stood to be a fun idea, unfortunately as the game progresses the idea suffers. And that is what i was hoping to get a reaction to, but it sounds like the intention is to play as a human and hope to get a well balanced team.(which we all know in practicle terms picking up a true well balanced team that will really benefit human form is going to be rare.) There by further limiting the playability in later levels. To bad i was having fun, just was hoping the problems that were becoming apparent as i leveled would be getting looked at.

I guess what i am asking is that with limited end, and 4 attacks, say only having 4 damage slots on powers at most you are a POOR blaster in the later game. I played a blaster i know this to be true. Now we look at human forms, when you add in wanting to deal damage or taking any forms really and making them even poor excuses for tankers or blaster, all your human powers suffer. Sheilds get short slotted, holds dont have staying power, attacks are weakened. I have heard that same thing from geko over and over again, as the crying sound of the mid level 20-low 30s kheldians, looking down the road, playing with hero planners, i can not see how keeping them versatile is availible. Keep in mind there about to drop our hit points as well, so now that quick nova to dwarf move will likly get you killed half the time, and with quantums i dont think any of us already think we dont die enough.

Like i said i would like a response. He clearly says that in balance he feels all AT should fill a role, what is my role, and if its versatility then give it to me. Having a 85 percent resist with no def buff and three powers, with no end regen to speak of is not equaling a tanker, having 4 attacks, again with limited end, is not equalling a blaster, then to turn around and have to reslot stamina, hasten and so forth to make a human form again is not going to keep that form versatile. I see as of now a ton of PB all being no form, tough defense sheilds with light form perma and the three melee attacks maxed since those are the only decent damage in the later game. That doesnt sound versatile it sounds lame. What i am asking hopefully to me will point out that just because we get a character that can do many things doesnt mean they do them well, and therefore should be addressed. And hopefully the answer will address many common complaints people have. Funny thing is everyone playing them seems to just say oh well i like them. Well i like mine to, but he has problems, asking those to be looked at is not wrong. And unfortunately it seems those that felt much as i do that the future of this AT is greatly limited rather then asking for issues to be addressed simply stopped playing them. So though when you take a opinon poll most people that have tried them i think side with my opinion in looking at the posts on the forum concerning slotting etc, it seems alot of people (and very good players) have given up on them already. And possible the devs should be addressing that. After all this was our post game content, we have a right to be herd if we dont like something. Im not saying he, or anyone has to agree with me, just merely stating my opinion, and i would like to know his.

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6. What is balance, can you please explain what you mean by balance and what you hope to achieve "balance-wise" when you make changes to the game? Does balance mean, damage balance? Or does balance involve ATs usage? A comprehensive explanation of what balance is and why it is necessary would be greatly appreciated.

There are two levels of balance that I consider. First is Archetype balance – is any single Archetype more favored than another in a group? If I play a Defender, do teams say that Defenders are useless and they’d rather have all Tankers? That’s the sign of a huge Archetype issue. This touches on something about the Archetypes, namely that each Archetype must have a well defined role in a group setting.

The second level is Power Set balance. Are any power sets within an Archetype demonstrably better than others? I’m not talking about a couple of levels of disparity; sometimes certain sets get access to useful powers at an earlier stage then other power sets. The key, however, is to analyze whether the temporarily “gimped” power set gets something cool that then tips the scales in their favor at a later point. In other words, when all the powers within a set are observed, is each power set relatively as useful as others?

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Ok so that is from the "ask Statesman" thread this week and he clearly says that he considers balance to be obtianed when all AT have a significant role to fill on a team. So then I ask to him, what is the peacebringer and warshade role? It seems rather blurred in that there is nothing we do well enough to say its ours.

Damage dealing? Well in specific forms but not nearly what the other AT are capable of really accomplishing.

Control? again not really enough meat for this in the power pools just a spattering.

Defender/buff/debuff? again no just not anything there of substance to fill that role either.

Tanker/agro managment? Again passable but i would certainly still want a tanker over a dwarf any day of the week.

So since he brought it up, i would absolutely love to hear his opinion. We already added one AT, he is already mentioning more in the thread, how bout we figure this one out first. Are we operating in a balanced fashion to the other AT, or are we broken. Right now i say broken, we have not nearly the resources we need to be successful and versatile, if i am wrong I would love to hear from him why.