Pacur
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Quote:It's not nonsense. To get access to auras, you have to do a special mission. If you don't do it, you can't access it. Same thing with the new auras.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Except that you can unlock that for another level 1 character who will never be an incranate.
The logic of auras showing incarnancy isn't logical. What's the difference between a fire aura that can only be unlocked at level 1 versus bubbles/slime/insert whatever the the hell you want here, that can't be unlocked until level 30?
If you want to say the auras are locked behind them for something for us to do after tiering up our REAL incarnate abilities, sure.
But I'm not buying this nonsense that any aura signifies an increase in power. It hasn't in seven years of this game. It doesn't now.
Again, aura=increase in power.Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Auras are NOT ASCENSION costumes. Most folks are FINE with that being locked away. (Though I personally don't see cosmetics are increasses in power, that's my issue).
Aura, no. Sorry.
I think the problem we are having is the definition of power then.Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The definition of power is my issue. For seven years neither auras nor costumes have equaled an increase in power.
Hell the devs did NOT sell Ascension Armor that way when they discussed during beta. It wouldn't fly.
This isnt WoW where a costume pieces increases your recharge, jump height, end usage etc.
Let me ask you straight out, what specific increase in power do these pieces give us? And I mean in terms of recharge, damage, end usage... the traditional increases in power in this game for seven years. I'll wait.
I define power as well...anything.
Do you define power only in abilities? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Biowraith
No, the argument is that slime/bubbles/whatever aren't any more incarnatey, any more of a sign of increased power, than the various auras we can get earlier in the game without touching incarnate content. The suggestion that they are is what I considered to be silly.
Also that it's not really a display of increasing incarnate power since it doesn't have to be the incarnate character that uses them (unless we're going to argue that the Well gave Cole the ability to endow his minions with some incarnate power, and it gave us the ability to endow our 'minions' (alts) with some slime, but that's going back to the realms of silly ;p)
Somewhat - at least I'd personally be more accepting of it - I don't have any major gripe about the glowie version of the incarnate armour being locked behind the trials for example, or the ultimate power emote. But it'd need to be *noticeably* flashier than all the non-incarnate stuff (not just flashier than slime or whatever) for any "but you're getting more powerful!" argument to really fly with me.
I'm not generally keen on gating cosmetic stuff, but I'm *really* not keen on it being arbitrary cosmetic stuff that has no link to whatever it's gated behind, and is only there as a kind of bribe to get us to run the content.
Ok, so if the auras were more flashier, would it solve the problem then? We seem to be reaching the point where we find out that the incarnate stuff needs to be more flashy.
Seems to me that's one of the roots of the problem. -
Quote:See my above explanation for a higher character giving some of his power to a lower character.Originally Posted by Lazarillo
The whole source of the problem is that they aren't more flashy. People are unhappy with auras arbitrarily being locked behind the Incarnate system without rhyme or reason. The "sign of power" for what it's worth, doesn't really work anyway, since once they are unlocked, you can put them on any character, even one at level 1.
That said, if they were Incarnate themed, I doubt many people would have such a beef. Most people are okay with the Ascension Armor and UltimatePower emote being Incarnate-locked, it seems to me.
So, ok, I think then we agree that the emotes need to either be flashier, or not cost E-Merits. Am I right?
See above about the bubble/slime explanation.Quote:Originally Posted by Gaspard
Ya that's actually a good point. I don't really see anything incarnate-like in a binary code or pixels, because they are the most interesting ones imo. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Daemodand
The way to advance your Incarnate should be to play them through anything in the game.
But not everything in the game is challenging. Challenge makes people stronger, therefore, to get to an incarnate level of power, you need an incarnate level of challenge.
There are really two ways to get to the same destination: One is long, but does not require you to do any trials, yet you can get almost anything you want.
The other is short, requires you to do trials, and you can get anything you want. -
Quote:You are right, they wont. However, the large number of posts I've seen all stated that they want a solo option, and I concede that some people want to solo. I won't repeat my reasons why I believe that it shouldn't happen for certain content.Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
You're right, there will be complaints. And the game won't blow up because of it.
It didn't blow up when tanks got bruising. It didn't blow up when defenders got their scaling down as team size goes up damage buff. It didn't blow up when SR got DDR. All the redside players didn't mass-migrate to blueside when we got sideswitching.
And the itrials won't turn into complete ghost towns if a solo incarnate path is added.
What would you want the solo option to look like then?
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Especially the bites part.Quote:Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
And do you know why? It's because that's a chore. Games are supposed to be fun, not a chore.
If it had been that I had to do X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7, X8, X9 or X10, or a combination of those involving similar amount of play, then I could possibly accept doing that to get Y.
If you think it's fun, then by all means, enjoy it, but don't expect me to. And don't expect that the "do X to get Y" argument bites on me anymore than the "can't we at least have an option to do X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7, X8, X9 or X10 instead?" bites on you. -
Quote:Wait, back up. You got four characters over the course of a couple of evenings, and a saturday, to T3 and some even to T4?Originally Posted by Lazarillo
I wrote out a response and accidentally clicked away before posting, so this is more of a summary (I know what you're thinking, "Laz, if this is the quick version...holy crap"). It's a little more terse than originally intended as a result, but most of the points still stand.
Well, they might exist because they're fun? And honestly? I mean that. They're fun. The first couple of times. What they, and all the content in this game is exactly like your analogy: something that's fun to do a few times, at which point you can move on from it and do something new.
If they want something that can't be done quickly, then they've failed. Because I got all four of the i20 Rare powers (sometimes, they Very Rares) on four different characters, and none of them took longer than a couple evenings and a lazy Saturday.
What's more, the reason I have four characters I did Incarnates with in the first place was because Alpha was reasonable to obtain with a variety of characters. Making us grind out the trials as it stands doesn't make me do them any more, or less, it just means I have fewer characters I bother to do them with.
That Task Forces are not endgame is an arbitrary decision. Task Forces worked well as end game for the Alpha slot, and could work just as well if incorporated into the current ones. Apex and Tin Mage, amusingly, still haven't really been used for Incarnate progression at all, despite being labelled as content for such.
Before the trials, there were seven different tasks that would all provide meaningful Incarnate progress, and we weren't even restricted to those seven, because of Shards. Now, we have three, and because of the infinitesimal rate of return, we can't make reasonable progress through the rest of the game, either.
Basically, the trial system has given us a negative amount of content. There's more to get, but less to do to get it. The whole point of not adding 10 more levels, as has been pointed out in this topic, was because of the steep amount of additional content that would need to be added. The Incarnate system was, in theory, supposed to work, because it involved more things to do to improve our level 50s characters, but since everything we could do before has been removed from that equation, we've actually been given less to do.
Speaking from my own perspective, I rather doubt that the same people complaining about the grind are also the people running repeated ITFs. Or, at least, I can say that about myself. My four Incarnates all did ITFs as part of their Alpha progress, certainly, but I don't think any of them individually had to run that single TF more than once. At most, I might've done three. Three BAFs won't even unlock the Judgement slot.
I'm snipping the next few paragraphs because, as demonstrated here, you're kind of building off a false premise. But in short, you're right. People who want to maximize rewards grind ITFs unflinchingly. And those same people grind the raids unflinchingly. But the people who want variety can get the same rewards the ITF gives reasonably without doing nothing but ITFs. People who want the rewards from the raids do not have that option.
Except it's the way this game has worked, since i9, for many years now. I could join a TF, or fight a Mothership raid, or just solo arcs on my own, and all of those would allow me to make meaningful progression. What I've been able to do in the past is log on in the evening for an hour or two, say "okay, I want to do X", and do it, and when I'm done, I can say "okay, and here's what I have to show for it". The new system allows for neither of these things. I don't have a choice in the case of my 50s. I can raid, or nothing. And when I'm done, I often have absolutely nothing to show for it.
If that is the case, them wow, you grind WAY too much. And that means this new trial wasn't designed for the way you play.
Why is it the worst one by far?Quote:Originally Posted by Gaspard
Don't mind the costumes/auras being unlockable.
I do mind however that astral merits cannot be obtained by converting. I also think that the Keyes has the worst trial/tf design by far. lol -
Quote:I'm sorry, I'm not entirely clear on a point here:Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
How many people on either side of this are thinking something like:
Well, I feel like that a lot of the time in-game, sometimes I feel it directed at me sometime I feel that way about others.
That's why I dislike teaming, and dislike mass teaming even more. Sometimes it's nice... but rarely
I do however like the game, and my characters and I'd like to progress them at a rate similar to those who do enjoy teaming. None of this suggests that I wish content to be easier (per player) or quicker (per player).
Actually I think the BAF/Lamb and even Keyes would be tonnes (Maybe even a Metric Assload) of fun if scaled down to harder-that-usual-missions level so I could do them like any other mission with EB's or AV's depending on difficulty setting.
Are you implying you want to progress at a similar rate through incarnates solo as in team play?
So, if I understand this correctly, you want the Incarnate system scaled down? Also, I kind of disagree on your view that its nothing, amazing, nothing again, you are god, etc...Quote:Originally Posted by rsclark
"Endgame" has always been a bit of a misnomer. A less concise name is "advancement after level 50". That requires that the characters still be able to advance in power, and that they have something to do with that added power.
The problem with almost everything you list there is that they have the same avenue to power advancement - IO enhancements. Mothership and ITF and LG and AE and Tips are all just alternate ways of getting the same advancement. It works, and it is good to have so many different paths.
But it's also bad for several reasons. First off, it's not simple. Do what my roommate does and grab the highest (purple>orange>yellow) set you can get and 6 slot it in the powers you use the most, and you get a slightly improved character compared to what you would get with some bizarre, frankenstein of mixed sets and HOs and everything else built with a specific purpose in mind.
Secondly, inf and the market exist. It is an endgame you can effectively skip if you have some other means of earning money. You can hit 50 and instantly poof yourself to the end of the endgame.
The problem is that endgame needs to be really slow and have tons of stuff to get, but cannot greatly increase power, because as the power creeps up and up, you need more content to justify the need for that new level of power. The IO system has the slow, tiny power creep, but the tons of stuff doesn't exist because of the limited number of slots you have to stick stuff in.
It's a fine system, but it has an effective than many people can reach - or at least give up on going any further into. So, you need a further endgame to play after you reach the end to the first endgame.
Then comes the incarnate system. The absolute worst excuse for an endgame that I can imagine. First off, the rewards are not small, slow increments of power that you can grow into. With the exception of interface, every slot is a tremendous increase as soon as you slot anything. The equivalent of 30 pre-filled slots in your powers. A crashless nuke that's more powerful than a normal one and on a fast timer. A massive heal for those heal-less melee sets who used to scrape by with throwing 2 powers at the medicine pool. A pet that's better than an endless supply of shivans. Then three of them give another huge burst of power when you hit t3.
This is bad design. Gradual rewards are better than huge lumps all at once, because people will accept getting gradual rewards gradually. The way it is set up now, you get nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,no thing,nothing,nothing,OMGTHATSAMAZING,nothing,noth ing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothin g,nothing,nothing,nothing,HOLYCRAPIAMGODHERE,nothi ng,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing. As a reward structure, it is moronic. The only sensible thing to do is burn through to get to whatever you want as fast as possible, because there is absolutely no reinforcement during the process at all.
What I want is a well designed endgame system. The kind where I can get on and play as I would like and on occasion see some new content as I grow out of the old stuff, but generally, just play and see an improvement - no matter how slight. As it stand now, you have a choice between "do this specific content" or "keep pushing Sisyphus", neither of which is enjoyable.
You did it only three times and its old for you? Umm, I really have no response to that.Quote:Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
The use of the term BS on my part was bad; my excuse is I was starting to write out my post and then looked up to see I was a couple of minutes late to leave for work, so I didn't edit myself. Remember: quick posting can be bad, kids!
The reasoning that "you can still do anything you want in the game" which is often tossed out in these discussions is fine up to certain a point, and that point is where I log in and see that a good 80% of people online 50s and I was hoping to do some casual PUGing below 50 like I used to without problem. Playing below 50 these days (for me, at my hours) mostly means soloing or pulling teeth to form my own team - which I can do but never had to do in the past. That's the change I've seen in the game that I dislike.
Things may change, but I've never been big on the previous strike force stuff as it was and as time goes by the devs just seem to keep throwing more of that our way and making it the most rewarding (loot-wise) to do. I think I've done the new one that starts on Sharkhead (over there by the ferry? can't remember the name of it off-hand) three times now and I'm pretty much done with it. It may reward me nicely and all that but to keep running a small set of these things day after day, even just a few times a week would get really old for me. (Same thing goes for playing a 50: I only have two. I enjoyed back in their day but these days it's just dull to play them.)
You should of continued, he makes a few good points.Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I stopped here. The WST, which is a task force can MOST CERTAINLY get you something that can advance: Notice of the Well, which can be converted to shards.
Also two specific TFs give you things that are directly tied into Incarnancy: Apex and Tin Mage.
I think this is the issue that many folks are having, the view that some have that endgame MUST equal RAID/Trial when that is NOT the case.
EDIT: And I say all this as someone who loves the trial system despite it's obvious warts, which the devs are working on.
On your tpoic, would it help if more TFs were introduced that give Astrals?
Alright, I'm a bit confused here. In the beginning yo say you want to go the the heights of incarnates in a semireasonable amount of time.Quote:Originally Posted by McCharraigin
Gaah..then give us people who cannot, or do not want, to team for a multiple of reasons, a way of continuing down the Incarnate Path solo.
That is all I want.
I am not asking for the Devs to stop the trials...not at all. My better half loves them, and I love him, so whatever he enjoys gets my stamp of approval.
I am not asking to do this fast/easy, all I want is a path that will take me to the heights in a semi reasonable amount of time.
Is wanting this so bad?
This new issue is called Freedom.
Locking all the ways of improving your level 50 toon behind mandatory teaming is not Freedom by a long shot. The word Freedom implies we have the ability/freedom to make choices. Where is the choice here?
But, Freedom issue is not here yet.
Could be there is a system going into place for folks like me.
Could be.
On the basis of this seemingly slim hope, I am going to try my darndest not to respond to the posts which make my bloodpressure rise, and rage spew out of every pore of me.
I do not want to be treated like a special little snowflake...not at all, I just want another route to the greatness that is The Incarnates
A route I can happily follow. Longer, harder, it might be, yes...but one I can do.
Lisa-Wishes Black Pebble would relent a bit, and allow the Devs to assure us that there is another route to glory being put into place...better yet, let Black Pebble himself write a post and do the reassuring. I feel that such an assurance would be great for the moral of everyone
Lisa-logging into the game
In the later part, you say you don't mind if it takes a long time.
You CAN solo now, but it does take a long time. So I guess here we have a problem of what constitutes a long time.
So what kind of time are you referring to here, when you say, semireasonable?
Quote:Originally Posted by Megajoule
Actually, Claws, I'm complaining about:
The lack of anything new to do that isn't part of the New Fun;
and even more egregiously, the costume bits, emotes etc that can only very tenuously be justified as "Incarnate" but were gated there specifically as "incentives" for people who would not otherwise run trials (because they just don't like that sort of thing, or have done and stopped because they're bored out of their minds by the grinding, or whyever).
Because, as the Devs themselves admitted, if it was possible to get this stuff any other way, no one would run Trials for their own sake. And then this whole bubble would burst.
New (cosmetic) content that pretty much everyone agrees has nothing really to do with endgame is being held back to prop up said endgame.
Not cool.
I did not see that comment, could you please point me toward it? -
Quote:That example is of course, extreme. But look at the top post of the page.Originally Posted by rsclark
I would truly like to see an example of anyone complaining that you cannot unlock everything in a day.
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Quote:On the first point, I don't see people who run same character over and over getting the most reward. I fact, they get less, because you can earn E-merits only once every 20 hours.Originally Posted by Lazarillo
If the devs want the system to linger, it would have been wiser to use time gating than repetitive grinding. It's worked for Merits, it's worked for the Alpha, but it's been the complete antithesis for the raids, which provide the greatest amount of reward to those who run the same character through them over and over and over and over again. What's more
This is not true. It's easy enough to get everything in a couple weeks. Hell, most of my characters who Incarnated, did so in a couple of days. The problem is that this content, by it's very nature, is burned through. It only takes 40 minutes to do a raid. Then it's done. Once the raid is over, you've already burned through that content. But once you're done with the content, you still haven't received any tangible reward, because doing one raid will never reward you enough to actually obtain anything.
On the second point, when you say your characters get incarnated in a couple of days, what exactly do you mean? Can you clarify please? -
Quote:The trials would still be run if it weren't for the Lore expansion.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Just commenting on the part bolded. I think this is an extreme fallacy. They don't need auras and emotes as a reason for us to keep running the trials when they have already stated that they will be expanding the slots and just did with LORE. The expansions to LORE BY THEMSELVES are enough for folks to justify going back to replay the BAF and LAMBDA and now Keyes, since Keyes gives BOTH types of iXP.
I completely disagree that they need costume parts to keep us running the trials. In fact if not for the LORE expansion I doubt most would keep running them. I think the devs are misguided if they think costume parts will keep the critical mass needed to keep the trials running.
Expansion of the actual slots and powers of the slots WILL.
I never even tried to solo any TF. Just wanted to state that for the record.Quote:Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Shivans enabled my Emp defender to solo Sister Psyche's TF. I know that's probably not too impressive to a hardcore ITF soloer, but my point is : a shivan changed my game.
Eco -
Quote:Astrals are available through TFs. E-merits are available only through trails, for reasons I listed before. These particular costumes show increase in power. Again, see above.Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
Actually, I am. Having "special" costume parts that you have to earn by raiding should be a relic of the Bad Old Days™ by now...
If Astrals & Empyreans were available through normal play, than I wouldn't mind as much. As it is, the Devs have tied the thing I care about most (costume options) to raiding. That's why this has become a raiding game for me.
At the rate I'm going, I should have all of the new stuff in a month or two, unless I burn out first, but I'd much rather have them as Costume Packs, or failing that... rewards for everyday play.
Just wanted to say, I agree, especially with the point that people have been asking for it.Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Comicsluvr is right about another thing. The end game only exists because WE ASKED FOR IT. Not every individual player asked for it, not trying to say that. But, enough people had been asking for some kind of end game to be added for literally YEARS now that the devs finally decided to give it to them. Is everyone going to enjoy it equally? Highly unlikely, I have yet to see ANYTHING in this game that received universal acceptance and praise from every single individual player. -
Quote:Thank you for that. I really hope someone on either the dev or GM team will read this and pass this on.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
In no particular order:
*New powersets (plural) now, as opposed to in six months.
*More power customization, specifically pool and epic customization.
*More weapons for existing weapon sets.
*Custom animations for existing weapon sets.
*More costume pieces and auras THAT I CAN ACCESS, for money if need be.
*That muscular skin texture for women that I almost made David promise.
*Removing redraw from weapon sets when a power can be used like BABs promised.
*Solo-capable content that is specific to the Incarnate storyline and offers us non-punitive speed of progress.
*Fixes for, underperforming powersets and specific powers, or even entire ATs.
*New power pools, new epic pools (electricity for Scrappers, pistols for Scrappers, etc).
*Something that doesn't have anything to do with Praetoria or Incarnates, be it story arcs or zones.
*Powerset proliferation, specifically Axes for Scrappers and Stalkers and Swords for Brutes.
*Better colour selection for air- and ice-related powers, better colour selection and "themes" for darkness powers, more colours for earth powers.
*New mechanics in costume design, such as non-robotic items in "robotic arms" torsos, animal muzzles as face details for normal faces, animated/moving/wobbling hair.
*Fixing inconsistencies in the editor, such as lack of shiny tights for Large boots and gloves, lack of scaly texture for Monster hands and so forth.
*Fixing at least some of the numerous bugs in the game, such as Keith Nancy's final mission where the dialogue with the "double" no longer happens.
And that's just off the top of my head.
One question though, how would scrappers use pistols? -
Quote:I addressed this in my original post. Only in the last year have the trials been rolled out, mainly, I suspect because people have been asking for them.Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
This is wrong, as a subscription based service, yes I and anyone else should be damn well catered for. Why should I pay my subs, for the development time to be put into something I do not like, do not want and will not ever want?
If you aren't able to at least 'try' and please your userbase, you have no business as a subscription based service.
That's one thing going Free to Play will solve for the devs.
People are being catered for. People asked for "elder game content" as Positron put it, and now we have trials. Like I said earlier, this game just turned 7 years old. For six years, we had 1-team content, basically. People wanted a change, and the developers catered to it. -
Quote:Very nicely put in terms of realizing that this is a game, and games have to have revenue in order to stay afloat. If the devs were trying to please everyone all the time, we'd be out of players in a month of two.Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
What about you?
Really, what about you?
Paragon produces a product/service.
There will be people that like and people that don't.
It's called reality.
There is no MMO company on the planet that produces a product every single gamer, or even every single customer, likes all aspects of in terms of game play and content.
Like any business, there is simply no way to please everyone and it is foolish to even attempt to do so.
This incessant complaining about the product has been here from Day 1, it is not going anywhere because it is not something that can ever be fixed. Pedantic gamers can NEVER be pleased and more than OCD (or CDO if you prefer) can be 'cured'.
Does that mean as a customer you are not allowed to complain, or that you should not voice your opinion of the product? Of course not.
However, to act as if you should be catered to when an aspect of the product itself is something you don't like is, frankly, shortsighted and irrational.
If you don't like parts of the game, then perhaps you you realize that does not mean there is anything wrong with those parts, it's simply that you don't like them. -
Quote:You are right, no one was asking for quicker rewards. Then you move five posts later, and we have one of those people.Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Actually, your post is one of the problems. Not to single you out or anything cause you seem like a reasonable chap but seriously...
What we have going on here is a very serious case of Glossing over posts, picking them apart for ammunition and posters putting cliched words into others mouths and I'm forced to point it out.
NOBODY I'll repeat. NOBODY has been asking for quicker rewards. This is a classic case of reverse talk. A few of the more vocal iTrial fans make it a point to allude to this in every post they make but it's only a strawman they are using.
Point me to a single post that has someone clamoring for quicker rewards/rewards for less work. I'll wait...
When you search this topic and read the threads (with an open mind instead of coming in from a single PoV) you start to see the pattern.
What players are clamoring for.
What all this hubbub is over;
The locking of non-incarnate items behind the system.
The lack of a solo option that doesn't take literal years.
The fact that our choices just became really limited for progression.
To a lesser degree, the over abundance of Praetorian lore.
Nobody is asking to be T4 in 3 days.
Nobody is asking for the Incarnate armor to be given to us without doing the Incarnate content.
So everyone needs to start actually paying attention and stop glossing over any post that merely appears to be on the 'wrong' side of the fence. If we did there'd be alot less forum PvPing come next week.
I really appreciate that you are trying to see the big picture, as it were. So in your opinion, what is the most important thing we are learning here, and if it's a problem, how can we fix it? -
Quote:Thank you for the support! I especially like the last part.Originally Posted by Biidi
The thinking behind the people who think this type of thing just boggle my mind. Lemme clarify, I agree with the whole post, just commenting on the last bit of this part. I saw this a lot on another game's forum where there were a lot of bugs and broken gameplay. After a new patch that introduced uniforms, off-duty clothes and other fluff items, people whined and complained that instead of that "the devs" should work on fixing the broken stuff. Of course, the art team needs to focus on bug fixing! Hear that art team? Go. Hunt. Fix bugs!
Another part I fully agreed with was part 1 (I think?) where it was mentioned that the Keyes trial isn't just a smash-n-grab. That's a GOOD thing! We have enough content where you just go in and steamroll through and curbstomp a boss or two. Something like this requires a little in the way of strategy. Also having healing be a bigger part in a team situation in the higher levels is a nice change from just tossing around def/resist buffs and punching things til they stop twitching. -
Quote:But we ARE doing something "City of Heroes" flavored. we are saving the world from invasion.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
^This sums it up perfectly for me.
Instead of doing something 'City of Heroes' flavoured, it seems raids/trials have just followed the cut'n'paste formula of other MMOs for 'End Game' content, by throwing in as much cheaty-hax to make it 'challenging' instead of doing something that requires actual thoughtful strategy.
It's like they took the Sewers Trial and kept the forced +4 Boss con and above enemies and forgot to replicate the clever mechanics and required strategy.
As for the strategy, honestly LAM and BAF have become a joke. It's get in , smash, get out. There is a little strategy involved in a BAF, less in LAM, but for Keyes we are finally getting something where we have to work together, and everyone is not their own Rambo.
'Quote:Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Incarnate powers already effect the game in number form. They are rewards for the Incarnate Trials.
Why are costume pieces, auras, emotes and such that have nothing whatsoever to do with Incarnates (you must be THIS awesome to fall flat on your face! olol) gated behind level 50 Incarnate content and that content exclusively?
There is no good reason. 'Because we said so' does not make it a valid reason.
Emotes, i agree with. Either move them to something that doesn't require E-Merits (Astrals, reward tokens, inf is fine by me), or make them incarnate-level flashy.
Costume pieces, and auras, see above.
See the example with the more-delicious cake.Quote:Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
^
This deserves quoting again.
So, you like trials? Good for you. What about those of us who don't? -
Quote:Ok, I am glad you asked this question.Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
My character can have glittering fairy wings from level 1.
**** the aura is account unlockable, so characters who have NEVER and will NEVER go on an incarnate trial can use these pieces.
So why are they locked behind the Incarnate Trials again?
It works kind of like this: You have a lvl 50 character, who has gone through trials, and has accumulated much power. He or she can grant some of this power to a very low levelcharacter, sort of like "taking the low lvl character under their wing", or "uplifting" them. Now, the low level character has a fraction of this power, and can don the costumes, and have an aura. But they will not be able to shoot giant fireballs or call down lightning until they go through the trials themselves, and accumulate further power.
See above.Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Having to twist yourself into a logical pretzel to prove that the auras and emotes belong behind the Incarnate trials because they are an increase in power is loltastic in epic silliness.
They are only locked behind them because the devs wanted them to be. I'm fine with that.
But I'd prefer the folks didn't try to insult others intelligence by trying to justify that said decision wasn't completely arbitrary.
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Quote:I agree about emotes that aren't "flashy" should not be locked behind E-Merits. I have stated my reasons before.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I disagree. It goes directly to the idea that auras are an increase in power. If they are then the booster packs are basically allowing you to BUY an increase in power, something that many players have already stated they won't tolerate going forward. For those reasons alone I don't see Auras as any sort of increase in power. And like emotes should not be locked behind the Incarnate system. At least not ones that do not in any way allude to being an incarnate.
Also please explain how bubbles and slime are an increase in Incarnate power, but being on fire isn't. By your logic nearly every aura in the game NOW should be switched to being behind the trials.
I have no issue with the Ascension Armor (which looks like it was made specifically to show Incarnancy) being exclusively a trial reward. The auras and emotes make no logical sense as being an increase in power.
Oh and technically speaking Ascension Armor isn't really showing your power increasing. Throwing a massive pyronic fireball, a shield that heals everyone at an increase rate, or allows everyone's abilities to be ready to use in extremely shorter time periods . . . yeah THAT's an increase in power and is ALSO a VISUAL one. A costume which doesn't do anything really with what has traditionally been associated with power in this game, doesn't impress me as a visual show of power. Then again cosmetics NEVER impressed me.
Or put in another way, yeah that AV may have an epic fire attack that's all flashy, but if it's doing 10 -1s to my Fire Brute, my Brute is going "ROTFLMAO, you call THAT an attack, here's an attack" *does footstomp knocking AV on his/her ****
Just saying. ;-)
With that said again the Ascension "Armor" (snicker) is fine as a visual cue of Incarnancy, and thus fine being locked behind the trials. I"ll be nice and not insult the art team by stating what I think of how the costume pieces in that set look.
Also, bubbles and slime, I addressed with the example previously.
Yes, throwing massive fireballs, calling down lightning, etc...shows an increase in power. But so are ascension costumes. As we get this power from the world around us, it changes the physical body, which we can use to display all the new costumes. Again, I can explain it in detail, but I do not believe it is necessary at this point.
Auras and costumes show an increase in power. See above.Quote:Originally Posted by Zortel
For me, I look at it like this:
Does Aura X affect my combat stats or the stats of my allies or the stats of my enemies?
If Yes: Not a cosmetic item.
If No: Cosmetic item.
The auras, the trail auras, the costume changes, the emotes and the non-incarnate chest symbols do not affect my combat ability in any way, and thus should not be gated behind incarnate rewards. -
Quote:I like the analogy. In fact it is one of the best laid-out analogies I've seen, but I do not agree that is like that.Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
It might have to do with situational bias. When you trial, you often play with trial-liking people. Hence no complaints. When you don't trial, even if you play with trial-hating people, you don't trial, and hence there is nothing for the haters to complain about. Hence no complaints.
Here these two groups meet. Here these two groups have a sense of reaching the devs with their opinions. So here you get the complaints.
I don't mind people liking trials. Heck, for all I care, they can play their trials until their eyes bleed. Please do! I mean it, trial to your heart's content! Do it! Love, man, and peace!
What I don't like is the gating and the grinding. I don't like obviously non-incarnate content (swooning emote?) being locked behind incarnate trials. I'm not particularly fond of the idea of grinding at all, for whatever the reason. Hence, grinding to unlock gated content is something I really really really don't like.
There are two arguments against this point of view. One is the "go to bed without dinner" argument: you have to do the trials to get the reward and it's your choice to do it or not. And here is the problem with that argument: it isn't a particularly good choice.
I like cake, I want to have some cake for dessert. If I am to have that cake, I have to eat my dinner. That's not the problem: the problem is that the dinner is spinach, and I hate spinach. I'm never forced to eat the spinach, but if I don't eat it I have to go to bed hungry, grumpy and angry at my parents who serve the food I hate on purpose to cater for my dieting older darling sister - who, by the way, cares nothing of the cake, because she's on a diet.
If there was any other option to spinach, even carrots, I wouldn't have a problem. But now there isn't. There are only two choices: eat the spinach and get the cake, or go to bed hungry.
But it is my choice, I give you that.
So I choose to go to bed hungry, grumpy and angry.
The second choice is the "shut up and eat it" argument. It goes like this: trials are fun and the devs like them, so you better get used to it and learn to like it as well.
Spinach is good for you, and your sister likes it, so shut up and eat it.
Yay. That makes me so much more happy. Combined with the "go to bed without dinner" argument, it seriously makes me consider to run away from home to Auntie May, who at least knows the benefit of a varied diet.
--
And there you have my beef. I don't like gated content, and I don't like grind. And the "go to bed without dinner" argument and the "shut up and eat it" argument really doesn't make me like gated content or grinds. At best it makes me angry.
Sticking to the food analogies, I believe it is more accurate to say it is like this:
I like cake. In order to get the cake, I have to eat dinner. Dinner is (insert food that is good). Now I am being told that there is a more-delicious cake available. But only if I eat spinach, which I do not like. I still have access to the normal cake, which i am happy to eat, but if I wish the more-delicious cake, I have to eat the spinach.
If I decide I want the more-delicious cake, I may put in extra work to eat the spinach, but I get more-delicious cake! If I decide that I do not like spinach, I still have my regular food, and the regular cake, which is good. So I do not go to bed hungry. -
Quote:I will address things 1-by-1.Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
The big problem with your original post and this whole thread is that even you have acknowledged that there are problems/flaws in the stance against people having complaints.
You say that the costume and emote rewards are due to the incarnate gain in power... but then you concede that not all of them are explainable that way and that you can't disagree with those complaints (and good for you - seriously- you're a reasonable person).
You say all auras are a representation of acquired power in-game, but Boosters are a different story.
And, as for the solo and/non incarnate path... This thread may prove interesting, if the OP continues his study (and others have projected the numbers in the past elsewhere).
Everyone just needs to accept that there are some valid complaints (and some invalid ones, for sure). People aren't making up things to complain about for sport (well, there are always some, right?). They honestly feel this way, because it is honestly making their fun-time less fun.
It's not that difficult to understand and it is not that difficult to accept...
And, hopefully, everything will come out in the wash and the Development Team will continue to do their thing in making things cool on a more balanced level for the varying preferences of this game's community.
Arguing extremes is silly on either side of any disagreement.
I enjoy the trials, mainly for the varied objectives within the quick mission/event.
However, I've always enjoyed smaller teams or soloing in this game. It just gives me a more dynamic comicbook enjoyment to the action. I like every character being in the spot light, like a Fantastic Four comicbook... You see each one of them do every single one of their powers... not some large visual mess of 8+ heroes using powers left and right until health bars drop.
I do enjoy big group things from time to time as well... but more as a rare exception and not as a daily quota.
And, yeah, the term "force" is misused and not correct... But you (and everyone) can see truth in what people are saying... If you want these rewards - be they costume pieces (including non-incarnate pieces), auras, emotes or powers... you have little choice of content.
Hopefully that will change over time, as they build more content and add different types of content (small team, solo, etc.). Most everyone saw this coming before the first wave of the endgame content went live. The best reasoning I saw about it was that the powers and such had to be balanced against the big team content... and then they'd have a better grasp for balancing other types of content.
Hopefully that ends up being true.
I'm, personally, not entirely happy with some of the decisions made about the endgame content and the incarnate stores and their developmental focus... But I understand that not everything in a game for thousands of different players is going to fully please me.
I'll voice my opinions, stay if I am still having fun (I am!) and leave if I am not.
Most importantly... everyone should try and remember that we don't need to convince each other of anything.
And, on the flip side, it's okay to listen to what people are saying without thinking How can I counter them. Try and accept that they're not loonies (no more than everyone else) and understand that there are different preferences, playstyles, opinions and definitions.
Yes, I acknowledge flaws in the system when I see them. The Devs are, after all, not god almighty and infallible. Also, sometimes things slip through the cracks.
I am saying that the costumes and auras, specifically, signify a gain of power for the characters. Emotes...maybe if they were something truly epic, a movement or something on the same scale as how cool those costumes look, I would totally be saying that they should be E-Merit worthy. As it stands now, laying down, fainting, and the like I think those emotes should be available through influence, or merit rewards,basically something different than E-Merits.
I say boosters are a different story because, well...this is a hard topic to discuss, because we can't really equal it to anything we can do in real life. A player buying a booster pack and it becoming available to all characters on the account is something that happens "outside" of the game reality. Kinda like, if in real life, aliens suddenly burst through my door, and game me some advanced technology or something, that would make me stand out in real life. Again, like I said this is a hard topic, and the example is not without problems.
As for becoming incarnates solo? I don't think I ever stated that you can become an incarnate solo. If I did, I apologize, and will go back and edit it out if necessary, in order to give a clearer picture. What I meant is that if you don't want to dot he trials, fine. Don't do trials. You can do TFs and SFs, and get not only shards at a faster rate than soloing, but for the alpha slot specifically, you can get the components by running certain trials such as ITF, STF, LRSF, etc...
Additionally, I believe soloing to become an incarnate should definitely not take as fast as running groups for incarnates, and by that extension trials. Why? Well, it is a great journey,, to become extremely powerful. Reward people who do greater challenges is only natural.
You said you enjoy smaller teams from a comicbook perspective, and I agree, I enjoy it too, with characters being in the spotlight. So let me give an example.
Currently, story-wise, Cole is basically trying/planning/whatever to invade the Primal dimension. During the stress test on Freedom a month and a half ago (about), at the end he even stated something along the lines of "we got the info we needed, everyone get back here". This event, of course, was huge, and honestly I think it compares to the Civil War storyline in the Marvel Universe. They had several huge fights in there involving dozens of heroes and villains of their universe (the final battle in Manhattan, where Cap gives himself up was one of the biggest). Currently, here, we are experiencing a HUGE storyarc, and we are required to gather our forces, and fight in large teams.
Will it change int he future? I certainly believe so, and I don't think this is really "endgame" content. Well..it is NOW, but as time goes on, other things will be developed as well, and other arcs will spring up.
Bubbles are not the only options available. It is simply an option. What if someone has a bubble-themed character in mind? If they start at lvl 1 with the ability to only have small bubbles, how is it wrong to assume that as they level, and gain power in the incarnate system, they now have a trail of bubbles that come off them?Quote:Originally Posted by Bookkeeper_Jay
Hahahaha.
You almost had me with that one. Very funny. No, really, bubbles do not signify incarnate power.
The problem with this argument is that it's fixated on one thing, be it bubbles, or something else people think is ridiculous.
Again, the argument here is that slime/bubbles/whatever is silly. See above for explanation.Quote:Originally Posted by Biowraith
The idea that dripping slime and trailing bubbles displays a bigger/further increase in power than being on fire or emitting a dazzling glow just seems silly (in a depressing way) to me.
Even more silly when you consider that the character that is obtaining the 'power' may not even be the one that displays it.
Actual power (clarification: judgement, lore, et al) being unlocked through advancing in the incarnate trials is consistent and reasonable. The fancypants glowie incarnate armour isn't particularly unreasonable either. But cosmetic rewards that are no more 'incarnate' than all the existing non-incarnate cosmetic rewards is silly at best, and a clumsy kludge to try and get people that don't want to run the trials to run the trials at worst.
(for the record I hate the costume pieces locked behind a kill-grind badge too, but they at least make a modicum of sense, at least as far as loot in an mmo ever makes sense)
What if the auras were something more flashy? Would it be more reasonable then? -
Quote:I think you are right that we have to agree to disagree on that. I am viewing the auras and costume pieces obtainable only through e-merits together with their names and the story we have going on in general. So to me, they are signifying an increase in power, and since before we haven't really had anything like the Incarnates rewards. But I guess costumes are just costumes and auras are just auras to other people.Originally Posted by Winterminal
I am responding to the whole post, but just quoting the TLDR sections for brevity's sake. I fully see your point here, and admittedly, it is hard for me to form a rebuttal, so this may just be an "agree to disagree" thing. I see no true in-game visual definition of what it means to be an incarnate, so to assign this fairly hodge-podge group of auras, trail auras, and costume change emotes as stuff that can only be unlocked with Incarnate merits seems arbitrary and unnecessary. You, coming at it from a different angle, see these rewards as an effort to visually define what it means to be an Incarnate. Both are valid viewpoints, just different, and I think we both get that.
I know we share the server, and this was not meant as a roundabout affront. I was simply stating all the facts so that people who were not there to see that event would have all the same information as well. The point I was making is that even on low-population servers, you can find people to run the TFs that basically noone runs.Quote:Originally Posted by Winterminal
First, I'm a little hurt that you don't realize we are on the same server, especially after I was actually online to congratulate you upon completing those 4 Shadow Shard TFs, let alone the fact that we've conversed over PinnBadges and teamed on a trial or two . Kidding/teasing aside, "exclusively" was a poor choice of words on my part. I meant that trials are currently the "hot" item, much like Architect missions (especially farms) were the hot items when Issue 14 launched. Back then, yes, you could find players to do other content with, but most were in Atlas Park's AE building. Now, as before, you can definitely find players to run TFs or even simple mission teams, but most can be found in RWZ or Pocket D, playing their 50s through the Trials.
As for the Incarnates are the current hot items thing? yes, I agree with you there to an extent. Especially with the new trial coming out, there is great interest in it. But as you yourself implied, the hotness of these things will die down, as it did for AE, and the population will "redistribute". -
Quote:In all honestly we are getting completely off topic here, and a shivan/nuke thread should be saved for another time.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
There were hamdion raids that were made TRIVIAL with just NUKES.
Shivans can basically allow some sets to solo AVs alone.
And as I said the devs DISABLED use of the for a reason. 16-24 players using Shivans and nukes would have made the trails stupendously easy. There was a MULTIPAGE thread discussing the decision made to disallow them. They are that good.
Those rewards most certainly DID change the game.
EDIT: There are also 3 TYPE of nukes unless my memory fails: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=205678
From that thread on them above:
"The nuke is kinda of underwhelming against a single hard target.
Though 8 of them together after 8 bios and 8 chem burns are downright nasty against the Freedom Phalanx in the LRSF."
"They are very effective against Hamidon if everyone has them and uses them correctly "
"The nukes are meant for teams. By yourself they are a good buff, a good debuff, and a good AoE damage attack. That's bugger-all for an hour's work and under no circumstances should you tolerate such antics. Once you start playing with teams, you start seeing results. A whole team rendered hard to kill and with a fat damage buff is huge. The rare all-boss spawns go down well when nuked. But where you truly start to see shenanigans are when they stack. Archvillains and Heroes at the end of very hard SFs and TFs are no match for a properly-prepared team, and nor are the buff abd debuff caps. Imagine, if you will, eight Bionukes, followed by eight Chemical Burns, followed by eight Nuclear Blasts. That is a 1200% Damage buff, a 6400% regen buff, -400% resistance, -280% defense, -240% endurance, -800% recovery, and around 4800 damage before buffs and debuffs. For some teams this is unacceptably slow, and they will instead summon and Biological Mutagen eight Shivan Decimators.
If this concept fills you with a sense of almost religious terror, do not be alarmed. It proves only that you are still sane.
One nuke on one man is crap. One nuke on eight men is devastation. Eight nukes on eight men is such incalculable power as words fail to describe it. No sooner do you see a foe than they fall as though the Hand of God simply reached down and turned them off."
I could go on.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Pain_Trial
After entering the room, characters can look upon an Aspect of Rularuu. He is surrounded by a shield similar to the ones around the Resonators. There are three more Willforges. The shield can be brought down using the same method previously used on the resonators. Once all the mobs are defeated, characters have about a minute to fight the Archvillain. He has good regeneration. Temporary powers such as Shivans, and other enemy debuffs can improve the chance to defeat the AV in one attempt. (Note: Warburg nukes cannot be used during this trial.) Once he is defeated, players can choose a reward of either a Temp Power with a small number of Reward Merits or a large number of Reward Merits. Each member also gets a huge end of mission bonus to compensate for not gaining any experience, INF, or drops in the mission.
Not trying to be condescending but you need to read up on these "pvp rewards" and what they can do before you outright dismiss them.
I was saying that Incarnates were not going to go the way of PvP, because the main focus is PvE in this game. The main focus of my point was that and not the other thing.
Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I mean the auras that can bought with real money and used at level 1. Aka, some of the booster pack auras, and I assume the auras that will be buyable at level 1 from the Freemium market.
Booster packs with auras are a different animal than having to unlock these auras with E-merits. I won't comment on the market yet, because there is little known about it at this time. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
How do you explain the auras that can be BOUGHT, if auras are supposedly an increase in power?
At lvl 30, you get Auras ABC. After running E-Merit content, you get E-Merits, along with gaining power. This allows you to access auras XYZ
E-merits, after all, are just a means to an end, meaning that they themselves are NOT "power". They are used by players in this game because its hard to show you gaining power without some sort of token, at this point anyway. -
Quote:I am aware of the PVP IOs.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Utterly and completely false. You can get the shivan shards and warburg nukes form pvp zones which could be used to trivialize certain PVE content. Btw, for a history lesson, the devs DISABLED the use of them in Catherdral of Pain, and now the new Incarnate trials, because those pvp rewards were just that good in pve.
Also pvp IOs can be used in pve and come with secondary pve effects.
What you are referring to such as the nuke, and shivans, they are useful in only a very limited degree. Shivans you get a pet, and nuke is well..a nuke.
Saying that the PvP rewards such as shivans and nukes (I am not talking about PvP IOs here) changed the game, I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.
Ok, my logic is as follows: At level thirty, heroes and villains to unlock Auras must undergo a mission, much like unlocking capes. This somehow changes them, where now they can give off these well, auras. So, lvl 30 you get aura, and later you can unlock another aura by running exclusive E-merit content, that content changes the hero/villain somehow, and they can now form this new aura. Hence, increase in power, and ability to do the aura.Quote:Originally Posted by Finsplit
So Speedball (http://marvel.wikia.com/Robert_Baldwin_(Earth-616) ) is an Incarnate?