NancY

I don't think I can see threads from closed beta, and I wasn't in that one. Besides, I wasn't talking about beta and you didn't reply to a post about beta, so I don't think your comment of months applies.

Plus, hundreds of pages isn't the same as months. I don't care if a thread is hundreds of pages if a dev replies the next day. O.o

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I can tell you that the rate of costume recipe drops went on for months before a red name chimed in.

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What? I just looked back at AmazingMOO's thread about that. He posted on 5/07/07. His title was clearly calling out to the devs, "Continued Dev Silence on Costume Drops?" He stated it had been a week since the inventions came in, Issue 9 released May 1, 07. And Positron posted the next day. The next day!

What months? You mean hours.

Oh, and the devs were called out to more than once in that thread, and they answered. Go figure.

Speaking for myself, when I say attention I don't mean what we didn't get in issues 9, 10, and 11. I mean that we don't get in general. Not even on the forums. Villains will never be able to keep up with heroes content wise, the blue side had too much of a head start. I think most villain players can accept the game will never be equal, but we do take issue with them not being fair. Shared content doesn't move the CoV story along. Shared content doesn't get villains EATs, which were scrapped at one point, but now are back on the menu, they're just...not in yet. 20 months after the last major addition to CoV.

*See above for my opinion on standalone/expansion* So you're saying that any sub-groups should just quit now because if you're not mainstream your money isn't good at NCNC or NCSoft? Now you see why I'm shopping for a new game and will close my 2 accounts.

Dude, if you really believed that spiel about it being content anyone can enjoy then you shouldn't care if villains got a few free issues for themselves. Please explain how hero content is content "everyone" can enjoy, if they prefer to play villains. If villain content can't be enjoyed by hero players, the same holds true the other way around.

Funny thing is, they lost a huge portion of the PvP player base because they waited so long to address that sub-group, looks like they'll do the same with villain players. I hope they can afford even more loss.

It's not wild accusations when the actions taken, and not taken, by the devs speak louder than words. How long do you think a thread like this, if it pertained to hero side concerns, would go without a red name appearance? Not this long, I bet. How you could still defend that is beyond me.

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Not that good, pretty much most folk knew it was an expanshalone.... bad word for an expansion that you didn't need the main game to play if you didn't want to. But the very fact that from the first just adding COH & COV to a single account unlocked it as a full expansion shot any illusion that it was a stand alone game seperate from COH all to pieces.

That people managed to delude themselves and apparently still delude themselves into thinking of it as a seperate thing is well ... just sad.

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Conversely, what I find sad is that some people can't wrap their minds around the fact that CoV is a standalone game, because it's thinking that's outside their box.

See this: bad word for an expansion that you didn't need the main game to play ? That right there tells you it's not a full expansion. Expansions require the original game in order to play the new content. It was only an expansion to people that already owned CoH, but not to people that only bought CoV. In fact, it's still being sold as a standalone game. Until it only comes in one box, and requires you to install CoH to install it, thereby requiring you to have CoH to play it, it's a separate game.

Considering that players that wanted no part of villains only got the use of bases, the use of the new costumes, and the 4 extra character slots with this so called expansion shoots the idea that it was a true expansion all to pieces.

That people delude themselves into thinking it's one game because they pay one monthly fee is sad. That came about because of all the crying on the forums. Players felt they were being forced to buy CoV to get the things I mentioned and they didn't want to have to pay more per month for a game they didn't really want or intend to play. If it wasn't for the bases and the extra character slots, most of you would never have bought CoV. The devs should have kept them as separate games, with separate fees, and separate player bases. We'd all have been better off.

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Yeah, well, it's quite clear how the devs feel about CoV and the players that are concerned about it and want to see it made better.

They have time to post about movies they've seen, or other games they've played. But they don't have 5 minutes to address people that have real concern and are getting angry.



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If you truely believe this why are you here?

I actually take the fact that your still here to mean you don't believe the malarky your spouting about the devs hating COV.

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Reading comprehension much? You're related to Xyzyx aren't you? I can tell, I see the resemblance.

Keep it up, maybe the two of you can get the thread locked and deleted like so many other threads where villain players post their unhappiness. Wouldn't want to scare off future dupe...er...customers.

I'm going to bed now. So if you two manage to post more wit, and put more words in my mouth, and give more examples of your lack of comprehension, and it's deleted before the morning, you'll have wasted it on me.

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I never said I didn't want more content red-side. I'm just not dimwitted enough to believe that the lack of it indicates some kind of secret agenda on the part of the devs. I know it's hard for emo types to understand, but sometimes it really isn't about you.

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I don't think it's a secret agenda, but they do ignore it, no secret there. I didn't say they hate it either, I just posted in a thread that someone else titled. I guess because you posted here too that means you think they hate it too.

Quite honestly, I don't get why you even care what I think if I'm an idiot and emo in your eyes. I said I was looking for another game and leaving when I find one I like. Instead of just leaving it at that you have to poke me by telling someone else to jump in the cab with me. Then you poke me more with your next few posts. Why, it's like you're a little child in school who has a crush on a girl so he pulls her hair to get her attention. If you keep it up I'll think you want me to stay because you like me.

Yeah, 'cause you're smart to not want more content villain side.

That makes sense, in an idiotic sort of way. Excuse me if I don't see it your way.

Only thing I recognize on your avatar is the brown on your nose which clearly demonstrates which side you're on.

It's easy for him to make his comments because where he's standing the water is fine.

However, if CoH had gotten those puny "expansions" in 20 months he'd be screaming like an inmate that dropped a bar of soap in the prison shower.

Gods forbid the villain players complain though, we're idiots for thinking we've gotten [censored] since issue 7.

The only idiot here has a smiley face for an avatar.

They designed, coded, and implemented a game that they hoped would bring new money to the game but wasn't a great success. The only major addition CoV got was Issue 7, and that was back in June of 2006.

So by "expanded" you mean the level 40-50 content? It sure would suck if that game ended at 40 but blue side ended at 50. Aside from the shared zones, how has CoV been "expanded"?

Maybe you mean Hamidon? Which few servers do because there aren't enough villains interested enough to do it? That Should have been a shared zone.

Let's recap, and I'm not looking at every hair in the soup, only the big ones:

Issue 7 - Villains content for levels 40-50. Grandville, and RV: a PvP zone so if you don't PvP, too bad. LRSF, mayhems, patron pools, new powersets. Nice.

Issue 8 - Vet rewards for everyone. Doesn't "expand" CoV. Redesigned Faultline, police band missions, and safeguards...for heroes.

Issue 9 - Hamidon for villains. They might as well not even have bothered. Talk about too much work for too little return, I never hear about villains raiding Hami on my server. Inventions and auctions for all, really just a timesink more than an expansion to CoV. Statesman's TF for heroes.

Issue 10 - Invasion for both sides. Though I'm not sure how easy or hard it was for villains to find teams and get badges because I didn't even bother. Co-op RWZ for levels what...35-50? Not exactly written for villains, but it's content, amirite?

Issue 11 - Ouroboros for all, good if you want badges or care enough to go back and do what you missed, not really "new" content. New powersets for all, that's ok. New hair...does hair fall under "expanded"? I'm thinking....no.


So, as I've said in an earlier post, all they seem to do these days is maintain CoV, not update it, or "expand" it. And I never said they hated it, I do however believe they ignore it in the hopes that it goes away. And yes, they dupe people but only into paying for it in the first place. I'd like a refund please.


edited *changed patch to addition

Yeah, well, it's quite clear how the devs feel about CoV and the players that are concerned about it and want to see it made better.

They have time to post about movies they've seen, or other games they've played. But they don't have 5 minutes to address people that have real concern and are getting angry.

And don't tell me about not calling out to devs, because that b.s. only seems to apply to questions about CoV which are addressed to them. If you don't believe me, go back through dev posts and see how many times they were called out and did respond.

If they have plans for CoV they could at least reassure the CoV community. If they have no plans for CoV they should let us know so we know where we stand. Personally, they've ignored us too long. I'm fed up and I'm out of here as soon as I find another game.

I fail to see where I said that anyone said give it all to blue and none to red. The hypocrisy comes in when posters tell the dissatisfied villain players they should accept any content they get because it is content whether they like it or not, but that same philosophy doesn't apply to themselves. They have access to the same content if an update should be devoted to the red half.

At this stage in the game the red half needs more help. If that means it gets more out of the next few updates, so be it. No one should limit themselves to one half or the other. That's another example of hypocrisy. Villains are told they should play heroes too if they want to experience all the content, god forbid you suggest the opposite to heroes.

I'm with Sam, read his reply above yours. Whatever needs help should get it. Forget the fractions. The only thing I disagree with him on is it going back to it being us vs. them. It's always been us vs. them. And the devs promote that thinking by saying nothing and catering to the more vocal players.

Well, it's really not so much a discussion as you, and others like you, trying to rationalize your hypocrisy.

You say yourself that a 75/25 split would still take too long to catch the villain side up and then hide behind the 'it's not good for business' excuse.

If it's really one game, as a lot of the hypocrites say, then it would be an update that benefits all players since we all now have CoV as well as CoH. Oh, that's right...if it's content you don't like then it's fine to take issue with it. If it's content the red side players don't like...they should suck it up.

I don't know about you, but I paid a lot of money for the Collector's DVD Edition of CoV, then bought it again with GvE. Not to mention beta testing it throughout the whole beta, providing feedback, getting involved with StreetWise. I put a lot of time into that half of the game. My money is as green as yours, and because of all these reasons I think I'm entitled to complain that half the game I paid for is disappointing me. I'm not 1/3 of the player base, I AM the player base.

So, stop telling me, and those like me, that we aren't entitled to updates where we think updates are needed. Especially if you wouldn't act that way toward a blue side player that posts things they think the blue side should get.

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In my opinion, if you come up with something that's fun to do, it should be given to everyone, regardless of what side they play on. That's been the Devs' mission from day one - make the game fun to play.

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Great! I'm going to log onto my villain now and do the TF to get the witch's hat, then I'm going to swap over to my villain EAT, oh wait.

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Or maybe you didn't figure out that if people get dissatisfied with CoH and leave, that CoV will lose people too, and that bodes ill for both games?

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Only if the people that leave actually play both games and not just heroes. Some people do only play villains.

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Sure. Go ahead. Continue to believe that no viewpoint but your own is valid. You're right and there's no possibility you could, maybe, be wrong. After 30 pages of stubbornly hashing the same issues over and over again, you've earned the right.

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Ditto. But it's not actually about being right or wrong, it's about personal opinion of which everyone is entitled. If you don't agree you really don't need to be in the thread at all because you aren't going to convince anyone to change their mind.


CoV started out a much better game than CoH with it's streamlined mission and zone progression. It had unique costumes, mayhem missions, ATs, and perspective. But the devs did drop the ball on it. Instead of keeping up the momentum in order to draw players to it they gave almost all of its unique features to the blue side too. If it was up to some people here the blue side would have everything the red side does so that they would never have to play an evil villain at all.

Now, the devs barely upkeep CoV, not keep it innovative. Rather than merge the two worlds and keep adding cross content I'd rather they break the two apart and run them as separate games with separate dev teams. Charge a separate subscription fee. At least that way CoV might get the attention it needs and deserves.

/Agree.

Also:

I wasn't suggesting they add world PvP, nor do I think the person Pax quoted meant that.

My points were that MMOs continually change and every change to the game is an adapt or move on situation that each individual faces.

The game wasn't launched with player villains at all, but we have them now. And because we have them now, if that aspect of the game needs more fixes, more attention for awhile, or more unique features to attract players...then it should get them.

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They day the games are fully merged, that heroes and villains all have access to all of the zones etc., is the day I cancel my account. It is a bad idea all around.

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becuase you will have more people to play with, you will be able to lvl faster and see more content?

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No, because World PvP is antithetical to how this game was launched, and thus, antithetical to the very thing that attracted a large portion of the Old Guard among the playerbase.

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Did the quoted poster mean world PvP?

At any rate, world PvP or not; how the game was launched means nothing, it's how the game is now that matters. Online MMOs evolve, they never stay the same as they were at launch. Well, they shouldn't because that would be boring.

I consider myself old guard, and I only came to this game because it was a different genre, not because it didn't have PvP. If they added world PvP I'd either adapt or move on. Same as any change they make to the game.

Just saying.

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1. Give CoV something so unique and amazing that people have to go back to the Rogue Isles to experience it (and thereby cheese off the people who want to play as heroes);

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But they'd have no right to be cheesed off.

As others so vehemently posted here, it's one game and players are wrong to limit themselves to one side.

The devs need to grow a pair and tell the people that choose to limit themselves to the blue side only that if they want to sample all the content the game has to offer then they have to play villains too.

Funny how it's okay to cheese off the villain players but not the hero players.

Something about sauce and geese comes to mind.

I'm kind of playing Devil's advocate here.

I don't care if there's a blue only update, as long as there's nothing the red side needs before that happens. One game or two, the red side needs some attention. And I disagree with you on exclusive content. I think the red side needs more, not less, to draw in more players there.

Ugh, got to go out, more later.

Edit: Out, got to go out. I laughed when I realized how that sounded.

Sorry Sam, I might have missed it. I stand corrected, but you're one of a very few.

I'm trying to keep up and take care of real life stuff. I have to go out again and by the time I get back they'll be a dozen or more posts.

So, if the devs don't see something as broken but players do why do so many players continue to post about it? Their opinion doesn't matter, only the devs do.

By the same token, if the devs feel CoV needs some love and devoted the next 3 issues to it we can all appreciate their opinion and leave it at that because our opinion is worthless.

Sorry, I took the red pill.

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To me they would only be the same game if any of my characters, hero and villain, could enter almost every zone. That's the way it is in WoW.

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Wow is FAR more PvP-oriented than here, and that design decision supports that move.

Wouldn't really be in-line with this game's casual PvE focus, would it? Either every zone would have to be PvP-permit co-op, which would change the focus of the game entirely, or every zone would feature villains running by heroes yet unable to touch them. Odd.

In any case, while that's a very arbitrary feature to pick as "the defining factor" or whether or not this game is or isn't a two-faction single game, it is one point of view.

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Just another reason not to use WoW as an example of comparison for CoX. But then, I didn't use that as an example first, did I?

PvP-permit co-op would be more true to comics than what we now have, actually. One can play WoW and never engage in PvP, there's no reason it couldn't hold true here also. Plus, I don't see how seeing the opposing faction run by and not being able to touch them is any different than both sides attending a party in Pocket D or teaming in a shared zone. Odd.

Yep, it's one view, combined with the fact that I can play either side of the game and never enter a PvP or shared zone and not see, let alone deal with, the opposing player faction makes me see it as two games instead of one.

I still stand by the fact that if one truly believes this is one game then there is no reason at all to begrudge an issue devoted to one side or the other. I've yet to see those that state it's one game also say they'd have no problem with that. Of course, they'd have to have no problem with it being red only and not just blue only.

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We have a few shared zones with most zones being for one faction only, while they have only a few faction only zones with most being shared.

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So the division between "they're the same game" and "they're seperate" is an entirely arbitrary count or percentage of shared zones?

I applaud your willingness to admit this is totally arbitrary.

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Applaud my willingness to state why *I* don't see them as one game and won't until it meets the requirements I stated above. Nowhere did I say *you* have to see it that way.

What I was trying to point out was that in WoW both factions are part of the same exact world, not kept separate except for a few zones.

I applaud your attempt to put words in my mouth though.


Edit: typo, too bad it's been quoted.

To me they would only be the same game if any of my characters, hero and villain, could enter almost every zone. That's the way it is in WoW. Ok, it's not that easy, you might have to kill guards or slip past them, but as long as you could do that there's nothing game mechanic wise keeping one faction out of any particular zone other than maybe the starting zones.

WoW is a poor example of comparison with CoX. They're the opposite as far as which zones which factions can enter. We have a few shared zones with most zones being for one faction only, while they have only a few faction only zones with most being shared. And unless or until we have that I won't consider this one game.

Blue side and red side share things, how could they not when one was built off the other. But to me that doesn't make them one and the same game.

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If it's one game with 2 factions, then an issue devoted to either side (including the red side) shouldn't cause a stir on the forums. But it did, and it would again if the devs did that.

So please, those of you that aren't for one side or the other, that know that this is one game, please tell me why that is.

Because it can't be both ways. Either it's one game and ANY update is a good update, or it's two games that share similarities and zones and updating one side only is a bad thing. (Well, updating the red side only is a bad thing.)

If the devs made another Issue 7 you're not going to complain because it's just another update, right?

Well, heaven forbid a hero should purchase something from a villain and the villain should make a profit off the hero. I'd roll my smiley eyes if I could.

It might be too late to fix, but if the markets had been cross sides as well as cross server then villains would have gotten some of those billions. That would have allowed villains to buy and slot IOs and made that side more interesting to play. As it stands, I don't bother to slot IOs on my villains, and most of my salvage and recipes gets sold to the NPC stores because it's worthless red side.