Mr_Right

Well the ToHit Debuff changes were explained to my satisfaction (though as anyone can tell, my expecations for that is kind of low, eh?) in that it's just a temporary nerf until I7 hits, where it will turn into a net gain (or atleast that's how I saw the math that Statesman posted, but I'm not the biggest number cruncher out there).

The Hurricane change I agree leaves us hanging though.

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Edit: Super_Villain
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I wasn't trying to misslead you with anything I've said, but give you what I thought, and why I thought it. I am sorry that it came out that way, it certainly wasn't my intention.

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I was referring to the patch notes in regards to misleading, not yourself. No worries.

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Ah, well that clears it up in my head then! Phew, I thought I was losing touch with my thoughts and words there! Like I was thinking one thing, but my hands were going off and doing their own thing!

I wouldn't call the patch notes missleading, personally, but incomplete.

...

Well, I guess that is a form of missleading, but I look at intent (the real intent, or the supposed intent I give them ) for issues like this. I certainly don't think they intended to misslead us.

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I don't think they have drawn any line as of yet. That is why some of us are posting here.

It often indicates that they are reevaluating the change if they do not post any blurb at all (particularly since States asked Castle to be pseudo-rep for a while), or that perhaps Castle is testing in PvE to see what he thinks.

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Ah, now that is entirely possible! I hadn't thought of that myself, and I tend to see changes that are pushed through as "done" unless specified. But if left unspecified, it could mean they are contemplating a change or alteration, but haven't been able to do so yet, even though the orriginal change has to go through do to the planned internal timeline.

Good call on that one!

As for the fact that no line has been drawn yet and that's the reason for the posts... Possible. Something else I hadn't thought of, for similar reasons to those listed above. I guess this is a "wait and see" moment now, instead of a "adjust" moment.

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i guess the problem is that....it doesn't make sense

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That is the problem, as i see it as well. Something, somewhere, was lost in some translation. I can see some intern looking at a piece of paper marked "Memo: Hurricane" and wondering what it's about, but places it in the shredder. Atleast, that's the amusing thought that enters my mind...

A simple explanation of it, especially the "why did it affect PvE too" would be good. Of all the information they could give out, that would be what I think is the best bit.

But because there are so many people each asking for different information, which bit of info do you give? And you know the moment they give out a drop, people will ask for more. It happens everytime. "Well that's great _Castle_, but why did XYZ happen in the first place?"

I'm not trying to defend the (imo) crappy info they have given us already, just trying to defend the idea that they have the draw the info line somewhere. I just think they drew it too soon, heh.

Hey, those are all my opinions on that. While they did only specify PvP as the reason for the change, I base those opinions off of what they have done and said in the past, nothing more.

When I say "to assume you know", I didn't mean to imply you specifically, but that neither you or I have any more information on the subject then the other (i might have missed a Red Name post or two though...) and that one can only assume motives beyond what we're told. To say that they could, but didn't, is to assume you know more. I ment nothing more then that.

I wasn't trying to misslead you with anything I've said, but give you what I thought, and why I thought it. I am sorry that it came out that way, it certainly wasn't my intention.

EDIT to Primal: And those dirty PvPers are probably playing mind games... want to divide and conquer us! Or something.

Fortunately, I do want you to post your concerns how you see fit. I haven't tried to dictate how anyone posts (though I do encourage "niceness" in posts, as it causes other people respond better to a post). Though when you get paid to moderate the forums as well, you may come back and tell me how to post, and get paid for doing it, as opposed to free, as you are now.

If you find a post of mine to be Trollish, off topic, or wrong, I encourage you to do everything in your power to let the moderators know.

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Don't take things personally.

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Thanks, but I'm not ^.^ and I do realize it wasn't aimed at me, I simply don't care for such... insulting threads. They lead to flame wars and little else. Keeping a level head when posting is the best possible.

Another thing, as it was changed in PvE as well as PvP, I assume one of three things (though there are more options):

They had no choise, and it had to affect PvE

-or-

They determined that it was needed for PvE

-or-

They decieded it wasn't that large of an affect on PvE.

Phew... a few things to touch on, and I'll do this the best as I can, but keep in mind I'm not great at this...

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as a paying and playing customer, i think i'm due my say in the product i'm purchashing.

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Right here is an issue that needs to be thought of differently. Yes, you do pay. So do quite a few other people. For the most part, each just as picky as the next, and all with different ideas about how something was implimented, and how it could have been done better. Some are out for "personal gain", others are out for "greater good". It's impossible to tell one from the other though.

When dealing with such a large market, it is, for the most part, impossible to actually get the large market do anything as a unified thought, because each is a "special little snow flake" (from my days in retail, heh). There are two several ways to do this, and again, each person thinks they know the best way. The Developemental team are, in the end, the only people who get a say in the matter, and do their best to anticipate the market. What that means for the market, is that it doesn't get as much say as it wants, and never will. Even if they did allow the market to discuss the changes as much and as openly as possible, it would still never be enough, because the market can never agree with itself on what needed to be done, so the discussion will never end.



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as far as i could tell the power was far from exploitative in the pve game.

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It has been, in my experience, that the power is relatively powerful. I would probably compare it to an unbuffed tank. This is just my personal observations and uses of it. Being able to tank for purple nemesis and clump them where I want (including sniper spawns) shows me that it was more then just effective.

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at the very least, it would help us clarify the issues of concern to the devs and see if they coincide with our own (however diverse those may be).

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This is one reason that I would like to hear more as well from the Devs. While I can understand that it would put many people's minds to rest on the subject, it would only fan the flames, so to speak, on threads like this. There would be no end to the conversations, except by allowing time to pass and people to vent.

I personally am of the train of thought that hearing more won't help or hurt any more or less then saying as much as they are now. But, saying more can always lead to problems, such as accidentaly leaking information, saying the wrong thing, or other issues the Red Names don't currently deal with as often as they could. Mostly because most things the Devs say don't go through a PR rep first.

IMO, there really isn't much, if anything, to debate about the issue.

It was done, people should discuss how it affects them, and if enough problems / issues can be found, it should be raised with the Developers.

What I see (usually) instead is people getting offensive or defensive about the change, or even the people who find they like the change, which usually ends in a spiral down into a flame war.

As for hearing more from the Devs, I like and don't like the idea at the same time. I like to hear what they have to say, but I respect that they have to keep somethings to themselves for the business to exist. As much as I like and love getting information out of them, even something as small as a reason, we aren't required to know this.

There is nothing we can do with the information besides go "okay..." and there's nothing we can alter or change with the game. Giving us information might be good for us mentally, but it's similar to giving us a rock. Sure, we have it now, but there's not a lot that can be done with said rock.

You know?

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Some jackhole spouting their smug opinions about what was "always overpowered" and using infantile buzzwords like "god mode" and "tank mage" and "herding" is not a reputable source.

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Neither is some jackhole spouting their bitter opinions using infantile works like "woodwork" and "trolls" and "smug opinions".

I'm not saying you can't say those things. I'm not saying that i think you're wrong. I'm certainly not saying that you have to be nice or even consider opposing points of view.

What I am saying with that is that you're just a reputable as anyone else, and people will always infer and believe and say what they want. Even if they gave clear cut reasons why something was changed, there will be someone, somewhere, coming out to say ANYTHING to contradict it, or claim it's a lie.

Being jaded and bitter is no excuse for insulting other people and degrading to name calling.



Just incase this gets someone mad and calling me hypocritical, I was simply using the above as an example. The first sentence of this post is by no means a measure of what I think or feel. I simply want to encourage people to keep an open mind and remind them that just because someone on the forum chooses to believe there were more reasons for a change to the game then what is officially told, doesn't make them right. Regardless of if they say they agree or not.

Remember people. Don't post angry if you can help it. It doesn't do you or anyone else good. It simply encourages flame wars, and that's usually the last thing anyone needs.

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Why would Hurricane be different? Lots of powers differ between PvE and PvP.

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Some powers are impossible to change for PvP and still stay the same for PvE. Most instances of this are powers that dirrectly affect a player. Even more so, are the ones that are Self Affecting.

Is it possible to have changed PvP Hurricane without affecting PvE? We don't know, only the Devs do. To assume you know is pretty much making something up and claiming it's real. Even if right, that doesn't mean you knew, it means you guessed.

Now let's assume that it WAS possible to change how Hurricane worked in PvP without affecting PvE. If that was possible, and they STILL changed it so it affected PvE, then odds are, they wanted it that way. We can assume this based on the idea that in the past, it has been stated by Red Names that they if they can avoid a PvP nerf that didn't require PvE adjustment by only adjusting PvP, they would do so.

Having PvP as one rational for a change, doesn't make it the sole reason. Or so I would hope to believe. That may have started the line of thought that there was a problem, and it feels like that's what started it, but again, that doesn't make it the only factor.

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/agreed on your Hurricane points, and thanks for the Grav idea. Does sound like a reasonable approximation of early defender blasts.

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If you ever want to chuck ideas at me for a Controller, shoot me a PM, and I'll be glad to put my brain power to work on it with you. Finding synergy between powersets is one thing I won't grow tired of.

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As such I suspect the change was because Storm Control is a (de)buff set and having an AoE control power was outside of its normal purpose.

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That's the general consensious of those who aren't in the habit of blaming nerfs on A) Nerf hering, B) PvP, C) Devs hating us, D) All of the above.

I tend to agree that the positional aspect of Hurricane was overshadowing the -Acc and -Range, and to a lesser extent, the Knockback.

You didn't sound whiney at all. Other people in this thread have sounded MUCH more whiney then you.

But on topic... Kinda. While Corners were the primary use of Hurricane to keep things nice and packed, and yes, Snowstorm + Freezing Rain is how I would do it against large open spaces (Atta cave, Fir Bolg, etc) I always considered that method inferior because of the Rag Doll physics coupled with knockback in general (be it mine or someone elses).

I personally had hoped that it would be a PvP only change as well (that's how it sounded in the Patch Notes to me at first blush), but I can't argue that it wasn't unwarrented to adjust the PvE as well.

As for rolling a Controller... if you miss the blasts, look into Gravity. Propel, while a really long animation, is amazing good damage with Containment. Crush is a very decent DoT as well. Slot those two up as if they were blasts, and you should do just dandy for your damage fix. While not as damaging (imo) as a Defender, and certainly without the variety, it can make the transition much easier to handle.

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are these debuffing properties of hurricane applied with each pulse? or are they independent of the pulse rate?

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I'm 95% certain that the -Range and the -Accuracy are connected, and not to the pulse at all. Just brushing the enemies has decreased their accuracy, even when I don't move them at all. (tested last night on Crey)

Another reason I believe this is PvP related. The -Acc and -Range last 10 seconds after leaving the hurricane's effect, that implies that it's independant of the Repel effect. While the initial debuff MIGHT (heavy emphasis on might there) be related to the Repel effect, I don't believe it to be so, as I previously stated by my Crey testing in the paragraph above.

If you can't stomach another Defender, might I point you to a Controller? The Hurricane adjustment is less prevailent there, as with immoblizes, you can effectively lock them in place, and move them ever so until they're in a group. No more need for a handy corner, as they're stuck in place with the immoblize / hold.

Plus you can get a variaty of other helping tools (Gravity / Storm seems to be the best to me, because with the Immoblize not affecting knockdown and with Wormhole as a great Mob Mover) which can make the job easier. It's a different tool, certainly, but Hurricane is still very much viable, IMO.

While I to loved the use of Herdicane, and trust me, I abused that tactic for over 50 levels, I couldn't help but see this coming.

I was able to herd the entire room that Atta was in, or pull it apart piece by herding piece, taking next to no damage. I was effectively replacing the tank. Now while I am still able to do something similar, I'm not able to do it as effectively. I may not be able to pin things in the corner like I used to, but I'll look at that as a step up of difficultly, adjust tactics, and enjoy the new challenge.

Before it was the challenge of trying to keep things in once spot without an Immoblize. Now it's a matter of keeping things debuffed and trying to keep them where I want them or don't want them.

>.>
<.<

That and I can now debuff things without moving them! Which means that I'm not accidentally pushing them off Ice patches, or away from the tank, or off a roof. Now I can debuff them while they continue to attack the Tank, and not worry about scatter.

And while I was going a bit of the "Oh Noes!" at first, I can't say the change has been entirely bad. It's just a change with some good and bad mixed it.

Not bad at all...

I'll have to look into getting a dependable Laptop now. Would certainly beat playing on the computers here at work.

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Though I do love the idea of having the portable harddrive or laptop to play on.

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Picking up a Laptop with a Wireless Broadband Card (like the one from Verizon Wireless... >.> *shameless plug*) isn't a half bad way to do it. The Portable Hard Drive works good alternative, provided your work allows the internet access and relative safety.

It wouldn't do your job any good to get caught doing this. And breaking company rules is a no-no. The more you break, the worse you are if you get caught.

>.>

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Phase shift used to be a player-at-work's best friend. Ah well...

...on a side note, after reading this guide I suddenly understand the quircky behavior of a WS I teamed with recently who was plowing along with the rest of the team, then suddenly said "Boss alert" and went AFK while we (somewhat puzzled) took out the remaining Lts and minions with no boss to be found.

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Oh that cracks me up...

I've actually found that any AT works well. Especially with indoor missions. Just go to the mission, and so long as you know you can handle the spawns relatively quickly, you can do a spawn, then alt-tab away and do some work. Then go back and forth.

So long as you take the game one spawn at a time, you're usually covered, with the exception of Ambushes, patrols, and timed missions.

The reason I suggest missions, is because you can go AFK in them for a long time without being auto-disconnected.

Being able to solo, no matter how slowly, is vital as you said. So long as you can solo Heroic Missions, you should be fine.

Teaming is variable. Teaming with people you know (friends, SG mates who know you're at work, etc) who don't mind letting you mootch the missions somewhat (afk a sec, boss is coming down the row!) is always good. Teaming with other people at work though? That's priceless.

So just last night, my friend was on her Peacebringer, and I hop on my Controller. We're both fresh level 19s and looking to level. So she pulls together a PUG. The first thing that came to my mind was "oh no..." The second thing was "Why is she getting a full team of eight?"

Putting my fears to the side, and trusting her, we went and did my Tsoo mission, which was set to Heroic, and spawning whites and yellows, with the occational Orange (lots of bosses though. LOTS of orange bosses).

The first thing to be said by anyone when we get into the mission?

"There are Tsoo many bosses in here"

....

Followed up with

"How did they all get here? The Tsoo Tsoo Train?"

....

The amount of Tsoo jokes we had going was Tsoo funny. We ran with that joke through that mission, the next Tsoo mission, and even way off into the Council mission. Even hitting on a few in the Hydra, Vahz, Council mission! (There are Tsoo many enemies here, we need to pull)

The team meshed so well, and there was almost zero complaining (one person, who was kicked and replaced almost instantly). It was just amazing how well everything seemed to come together. And when I did level up to 20 on the last mission? I got Hurricane and helped clump up all the baddies around the tanks so the AoE happy Blasters and PBs could get it on.

How do you know you're on a good PUG?
There are Tsoo many jokes flying around that you can't see straight!

Just as an interesting tid-bit of info...

Portable Hard Drives can allow you to play from any computer, without installing on any of them.

Download the client to the hard drive, then run that. From that point on, you'll be able to take the now portable CoH and play from any computer that can run it.

This may affect your speed and lag, but I personally believe it doesn't, and the computer I'm running on is just outdated.

A 20 GB Portable HD that plugs into USB ports is what I use, and works relatively well.


....

Wait. This wasn't a serious topic?

I'll just assume you missed this post in here, stellar.