MrNoj

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Pretty much stopped reading when I realized that you think I want this system in. This is the worst idea they've come up with in a long time. This system makes it easier for the PL crowd and makes everyone else suffer. I am COMPLETELY AGAINST THIS.

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Heh. Well, uh... good!

Sorry, too much interweaving of the response threads for my sleep-deprived brain, I guess.

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LOL... I figured you were a little confused about my motivations. I've done that myself a few times.

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Explaining TWICE why I don't want to be PL'ed is too often IMO. PLers need to understand that unlike some other MMOG's, CoH has some GOOD content, IN DEPTH storylines, and tons of history that's actually WORTH READING.

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Yeah, so lets break out the system that mildly punishes everyone for the sake of the few who are missing out. Especially when not all of us care.

What happens when you next join a team and their shocked you don't want to street sweep? Or... hunt for badges? Will your annoyance at those things drive you to seek some sort of limitation on everyone's ability to do those things?

I don't think PL-ing is a good thing, but I simply cannot care about it to the level where I want any imposition on the good things in this game. I could give a damn about other people's interpretation of how the game should be, how teaming should work, or how XP should be distributed, and I'm not going to argue them other than to say I was happy with how they were. And now, because of something I did not care about, a "problem" I do not think needed to be fixed with any urgency, I lose out on the game working how I liked. Well that's dandy.

For all that I think PL as a "way of life" is lame, I think this is far more lame even with the latest improvements. And I'll gladly say I don't feel it was the PLers who brought it on.

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Pretty much stopped reading when I realized that you think I want this system in. This is the worst idea they've come up with in a long time. This system makes it easier for the PL crowd and makes everyone else suffer. I am COMPLETELY AGAINST THIS.

Edit: NWN is not about heroes, thus you are rewarded for running away from fights that you are going to fail, and punished HARSHLY for trying to save your teammates and dying in the process.

CoH is about heroes. You are not punished very badly for dying, because you only die for noble causes in the game. Nobody would play heroically if there were such a harsh penalty for dying. And nobody would have defeated Hamidon... or even Dr. V if they had to worry about losing 3 levels or more.

So on that point I say :P

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Powerleveling effects me because its widespread practice means that higher-level characters' players simply PRESUME that I want to powerlevel if I'm on a team with them unless told otherwise, and when I do say otherwise, they're surprised--or even insulted that I'd not want their "generousity" and wish to actually be USEFUL as a sidekick.

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That's like asserting that the existance of left handed people causes you, being right handed, to have to explain to people why you want to sit on a certain side of the table every time you eat. If you have to explain that you don't want to PL every time you team (or even more than 1/4 of the time) you have the worst luck in the game world.

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Explaining TWICE why I don't want to be PL'ed is too often IMO. PLers need to understand that unlike some other MMOG's, CoH has some GOOD content, IN DEPTH storylines, and tons of history that's actually WORTH READING.

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Powerleveling effects me because its widespread practice means that higher-level characters' players simply PRESUME that I want to powerlevel if I'm on a team with them unless told otherwise, and when I do say otherwise, they're surprised--or even insulted that I'd not want their "generousity" and wish to actually be USEFUL as a sidekick.

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/agreed 100%

I have been on teams with lvl 40+ characters who were shocked that I did not want a PL. I would have liked to do a couple missions with them though, but they kicked me... they wanted to use me as a bridge I'm guessing.

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...This change is being implemented to target a small group and will have consequences far reaching beyond its intent...

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Yeah, that's my only real problem with it. It has too much collateral damage associated with it. If they are set on implementing this, than I'd like to see them at least add another layer to it.

Maybe something like an XP cap when you're out of range, so you only get half XPs or XPs for +1s or +2s regardless of the level the mob that was defeated. Or, the XPs you get could be based on the people defeating it rather than your level. So if you are out of range and the team beats something that is +6 to you but only +1 to them, then you only get XPs for a +1. Something like that would have much less severe side effects, but it still might have problems. That's just something off the top of my head.

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That one has even more holes in it, I understand that it was something that you pulled out of your lower orifice, but I can see exploits for that which are far worse than the 'no xp for the bridge' exploits... but they actually require work.


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You did say that putting a stop to PL'ing will make my game better.


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Removing blatant temptations allows for a better game.


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So...I asked how that would improve the game for me. I'm still not seeing any benefit to a lack of PL'ers when I log on.


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I get a kick out of this guy losing track of his own arguements.

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... stuff... more stuff...
REASON XPs AREN'T INCREASED WHEN SOMEONE IS OUT OF RANGE:
If you are on a team of three but the other two are out of range when you defeat something, you will get the same XPs that you always have. It will not be increased as if you were solo...the other two just won't get any. This is necessary, because if XPs were calculated based upon who's in range, that would create a brand new powerleveling expliot. Teammate #1 sidekicks Teammate #2. Teammate #3 fights a mob. Teammate #1 backs away so that he is still within sidekick range of #2 but NOT within range of the mob being fought. XPs would then be divided by #2 and #3 as if they were the only ones on the team. That would give the sidekick more XPs than he would have gotten if the change had never been made. Increased XPs could also introduce a new form of "griefing" or "kill stealing" from your own team. Run ahead of them and fight something so that you could get more XPs than you would have if you'd stuck by them. However, I think the powerleveling exploit is probably the main reason why they are leaving it as it is.

... more stuff... even more stuff...

Dwimble

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I really don't think that in SG's that PL new toons that this will be of any concern, as long as the bridge gets NO XP they will be happy. The part that some of them have problems with now is that the bridges outlevel their usefulness. If they don't get xp, they don't outlevel their usefulness. This would still make the whole thing more usable for PL SGs, while hurting the rest of us.

Re-post of a re-quote (if you've been following this at all in the other thread, you can probably ignore this)

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Re-Quote from the other thread
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Just to put a few starting points out there for my post...

1) Statesman, in his own post has already stated that this XP leash will not even be a guaranteed fix to the one type of PL it targets. BUT, it WILL certainly be a hindrance for EVERY other type of player out there in EVERY situation and tactic from level 1 to 50.

2) Also, the 'lost to the void' exp has been stated as a bug in review (in that exp which would normally have gone to teammates in the split now goes nowhere) so we can know that it is not meant for xp to be lost to those outside 200'.

So, as if roleplaying a time traveling AR/DEV blaster here to save your world, I will explain to you how this will IMPROVE things for PLers of the singular variety it is aimed at prohibiting (namely, street sweepers with a bridge and SK).

Place the hunter on whatever target he wishes, place the SKed character within 200' of the target, place the bridge 50' from the SK and in the opposite direction of the hunter. You can put the SK and bridge in any combination of distance (since SK range is 9 yards longer than the XP leash) as long as the bridge is +200' from the target and SK is between them. It'll look like this:


(MINION) Hunter <------190'----->SK<----------50'-------->Bridge

You have now placed the SK within level range of the target AND within leash range of exp while removing the bridge as an XP leech from the scenario. Now the 3 man team xp boost is split among two, the hunter and the SK this whole setup was built for anyway. VOILA!! Better PLing without exploiting and all thanks to this 'limitation' on PLing.

If all that comes out of this is, 'at least the PLers are working harder', realize how much more inconvenient and convoluted it is for EVERY OTHER GAMER in CoH and drop it from the code altogether. Please.


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Quoted for genius.

If the Devs are dead set on releasing this code, please, PLEASE put additional code in there for debuffers and buffers to get xp from doing their jobs (while on teams anyways).


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once again re-quoted:

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You have now placed the SK within level range of the target AND within leash range of exp while removing the bridge as an XP leech from the scenario. Now the 3 man team xp boost is split among two, the hunter and the SK this whole setup was built for anyway. VOILA!! Better PLing without exploiting and all thanks to this 'limitation' on PLing.



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You are a deviously brilliant individual.



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Seconded! I would never have come up with this brilliant twist on using XP range to your advantage.

Finding bridges is a pain because they level up as you use them...this could eliminate that. The only problem is getting the distances consistently right, which would be hard to automate.



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Actually it would be painfully easy to automate. Have the SK mark the PL'er and the mentor mark the SK. The SK stays 55-60 Yards from the PL'er (who would have to be a melee fighter) and have the mentor stay at least 20 yards further back from the SK. Actually you wouldn't even have to have the mentor mark the SK, just have him mark the PL'er and stay more than 70 yards back from the PL'er.


Simple.

(btw, lvl 32 and I've been playing since before the Rikti invasion)


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Change the math on these slightly and you have a new power leveling technique that is at least twice as effective as the one that is currently used on live. And 100 yards is much easier to check up on than 67 in any case. If you make it double SK distance, then you wouldn't inconvenience much of anyone, and you'd keep the PL'ers away from the station. Not much better, but a little.



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Just in case a dev missed this earlier... I'll do the math now.

PL'er fights while SK stands 95 yards away from the PL'er. Bridge stands 110-120 yards from PL'er. To make this easy for everyone, both the Bridge and SK mark the PL'er as a way point. SK gets uber xp while the Bridge gets nada. Works better than the current PL system because SG's that PL all their new toons only need one or two bridges at lvl 43-44, as the Bridge never gains xp and never needs to be replaced.

Edit: Or better yet, let the bridge die. The SK can TP friend the dead bridge around. It doesn't matter if he's in range to gain xp, because of the death timer, he gets no xp anyways. He just has to type something occasionally to his friends or SG mates to stay logged in, heck, I think that would even work in missions with the current system.

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If all they were worried about was people standing at the tram causing lag then the simply could have made it "No Exp" zone.. where you get no exp if you are standing within so many feet of the tram.

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Great idea, but it would only serve to shift the lag further away from the tram.

To Statesman: How about putting a hard XP cap, instead of calculating a percentage, on anyone SK'ed to a higher level hero who's +4 levels above their true level. You'd be able to nix powerleveling altogether without impacting the rest of the playerbase.

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That'd ruin it for me and my GF. My GF is starting an account and buying a laptop so that she can play CoH with me. She'd be starting out at lvl 1... my main is lvl 32 and my controller (who she'd probably want to team with) is something like lvl 12. I'm pretty sure that I'll be playing less than her, so at first, she'd get no xp for playing with me, and later on, I'd get no xp for playing with her.

Here's a better solution. If you are on a team with a player who's Combat level is more than +5 of your combat level, you get no xp. That'd make groups have to be a little tighter, but people were already complaining because for everyone to be effective (as of the purple patch) they have to be within 4 levels of the rest of the team. It's possible that 6 level gaps could work, but currently the level gap (in the higher level ranges) is 9. A 7 or 8 level gap in a team is optimal for PL'ing from what I understand.

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New defender/controller items at your local contact
http://www.bylawleash.com/images/leashdiagram.jpg


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SWEET! It has a zipper pouch and everything, awesome!

Re-Quote from the other thread
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Just to put a few starting points out there for my post...

1) Statesman, in his own post has already stated that this XP leash will not even be a guaranteed fix to the one type of PL it targets. BUT, it WILL certainly be a hindrance for EVERY other type of player out there in EVERY situation and tactic from level 1 to 50.

2) Also, the 'lost to the void' exp has been stated as a bug in review (in that exp which would normally have gone to teammates in the split now goes nowhere) so we can know that it is not meant for xp to be lost to those outside 200'.

So, as if roleplaying a time traveling AR/DEV blaster here to save your world, I will explain to you how this will IMPROVE things for PLers of the singular variety it is aimed at prohibiting (namely, street sweepers with a bridge and SK).

Place the hunter on whatever target he wishes, place the SKed character within 200' of the target, place the bridge 50' from the SK and in the opposite direction of the hunter. You can put the SK and bridge in any combination of distance (since SK range is 9 yards longer than the XP leash) as long as the bridge is +200' from the target and SK is between them. It'll look like this:


(MINION) Hunter <------190'----->SK<----------50'-------->Bridge

You have now placed the SK within level range of the target AND within leash range of exp while removing the bridge as an XP leech from the scenario. Now the 3 man team xp boost is split among two, the hunter and the SK this whole setup was built for anyway. VOILA!! Better PLing without exploiting and all thanks to this 'limitation' on PLing.

If all that comes out of this is, 'at least the PLers are working harder', realize how much more inconvenient and convoluted it is for EVERY OTHER GAMER in CoH and drop it from the code altogether. Please.


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Quoted for genius.

If the Devs are dead set on releasing this code, please, PLEASE put additional code in there for debuffers and buffers to get xp from doing their jobs (while on teams anyways).


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once again re-quoted:

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You have now placed the SK within level range of the target AND within leash range of exp while removing the bridge as an XP leech from the scenario. Now the 3 man team xp boost is split among two, the hunter and the SK this whole setup was built for anyway. VOILA!! Better PLing without exploiting and all thanks to this 'limitation' on PLing.



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You are a deviously brilliant individual.



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Seconded! I would never have come up with this brilliant twist on using XP range to your advantage.

Finding bridges is a pain because they level up as you use them...this could eliminate that. The only problem is getting the distances consistently right, which would be hard to automate.



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Actually it would be painfully easy to automate. Have the SK mark the PL'er and the mentor mark the SK. The SK stays 55-60 Yards from the PL'er (who would have to be a melee fighter) and have the mentor stay at least 20 yards further back from the SK. Actually you wouldn't even have to have the mentor mark the SK, just have him mark the PL'er and stay more than 70 yards back from the PL'er.


Simple.

(btw, lvl 32 and I've been playing since before the Rikti invasion)


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Change the math on these slightly and you have a new power leveling technique that is at least twice as effective as the one that is currently used on live. And 100 yards is much easier to check up on than 67 in any case. If you make it double SK distance, then you wouldn't inconvenience much of anyone, and you'd keep the PL'ers away from the station. Not much better, but a little.

(edited to add commentary)

I emailed Curveball and he gave me permission to use hes original guide on the CoH WikiBook. So if there are any serious flaws in it, or if it's missing something, I'd appriciate all the help I could get in updating the original. Follow the link in my sig, it's pretty easy to find the guide from there.

Edit: To everyone who has helped me out with this already, and everyone who has fed me input on the CoH WikiBook, thanks a ton! It's slow work, but it's going great.

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I find the whole concept of requiring players to "Pharm for phat lewt" in order to be competative in PvP to be reprehensible and terribly short-sighted on the part of the developers. For a healthy PvP game you want to make it easy for people to compete on an equal footing, not hard.

And for all the people who say that HOs are a reward for skill, please save it for the newbs. Getting loot isn't about skill, it's about time.

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More about timing, willingness, and computer quality than time, IMO. Anyone can get 2 hours in a row to get one of them, it'd take a long time to get 40+ of em to max out every power, but it's possible to do it, and anyone who's made it to level 50 shows that they have the time to play for 2 hours at a stretch at least once in a while.

But... whether or not those two hours are at the same time as a raid is another thing. Plus, if someone doesn't want to kill a 'giant ball of snot' over and over again, they shouldn't be forced to. On top of that, there are several people who are barely meeting the minimum computer specs that want to do pvp (hopefully they know that even if everything else is even, computer speed will have an effect on the outcome of a match).

I agree that it was short sited of the devs, they didn't think of PvP when they made the Hamidon adjustments earlier on. If they had been, they would have just made him easier to kill instead of making the HO's more effective. The HO's once did just barely over SO levels of enhancement TOTAL. (it was something like 20%/20% on a dual) This meant that people had to choose wisely when using HO's, thus not many people even bothered killing the poor jello mold.

Now I may be wrong about how HO's used to work, and if so I'm sorry. But unless you had one pre 41-50 being added, don't "correct" me.

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Oh, you mean like in SWG? I thought you said they were unsuccessful in PvP.

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Ok seriously, if you actual think that SWG had anything at all resembling a healthy PvP system or experience then the differance in our opinions are simply too vast to conquer.

If you were refering to base raids in SWG then I say that even what is clearly a good idea can be mangled by a horribly executed PvP system. I was in fact refering to third party accounts of Raids systems in other MMORPGs such as Lineage, or possibly DAoC.

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Knew you'd bite eventually, I threw that one in to piss you off a bit. I've never even played SWG... other than 7 day demo (in only a week, I found out why I'd only heard good things about this from 2 people total... everyone else wasn't so lost in their SW-junkie-ism [that's a word, I swear] that they couldn't identify crap with the SW name as crap)

I'm just ribbing you on that... I know a good base raid system can be way cool. In fact I'm looking forward to having it in game when CoV comes out.

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now the 0 enhancement idea is the one for me that is the no brainer for people afraid of getting clobbered by the HO crowds. THis has to be the one idea that beats all proposed on the lets nerf everyone stronger than me point of view.

THen it's not about you min/maxing better than someone else. A person who doesn't know how to slot properly has just an even field to play w/ the people who know how to slot effectively. In essence this not only equalizes the uber leet players w/ fully decked out toons w/ HO's - AND - makes it so the geeks who run numbers can't just go and wail on the little weakling casual players who don't build their toons by forumulas.

This could even make a 2 class system. One free for all, no holds barred fighting w/ enhancements. The other can be , the ultimate handicap fighting class.

Both can easily have their own tournaments, and everyone can play in both tournaments or just one of the tournaments if they want.

And noone has to have their enhancements turned into something they aren't.

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LOL...nice sarcasm, dude! You managed to slip a lot of insults in toward those who don't have the HO's while you were at it.

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Not so sure he was being sarcastic, and I'm pretty sure he was insulting both sides of the arguement...

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makes it so the geeks who run numbers can't just go and wail on the little weakling casual players who don't build their toons by forumulas.

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That line is what makes me think that.

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To quible with you :
Battlefield:blah blahs, Starfleet command and many other are dedicated to the team effort.

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First off, those games are team vs team, not co-op. Co-op is everyone on the same side.

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Also FPS get about 2million+ players where as SWG PvP would have had 66,000 at it's height. That's an awfully large difference paying to play would be more likley factor.


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And I never said it wasn't a factor. I'd say it's a very small one though. FPS games by their very design are competitive. They are more like sports games than like RPGs.
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Regardless FPS is simply more successful why? and what can be drafted into serving MMOs. Base raid style play is just one supremely succesful idea that FPS may have to offer. So I say stop looking to old MMRPGs and look to other MMOs.

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Oh, you mean like in SWG? I thought you said they were unsuccessful in PvP.

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I would like to point out that Quake, Battlefield:blah or starcraft have immense player bases and continue to be played for a long long time.

On the flip side nearly every MMORPG has a PvP that is played by less than 20% of their entire player base.

Gee I wonder which one of those is doing things the right way and which is doing things the wrong way....

To me that says that there is something far more successful in FPS PvP then MMORPG PvP it also say that PvP with out loot, in and of itself can be a very effective endgame.

So it is dangerous to make suggestions about FPS and RTSs. When in my opinion we should all be asking why are they so successful and why is PvP in every MMORPG so unsuccessful. At the very least it not a reason to be looking at past MMOs for "helpful" tips on what makes good PvP.

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I'll be the first to point out that those games by thier very nature are very competitive. Wheras MMO environments tend to foster more cooperative roles. PvP in an FPS is hardly comperable to PvP in an MMO just by the fact that the games were designed almost exclusively for that purpose. There are exceptions such as Metroid Prime, but even it's sequel has PvP now (nobody plays that PvP much... maybe because the story mode is actually fulfilling unlike most FPS games). There are exceptions to the minimal PvP in MMO's too, such as Guild Wars which is almost exclusively PvP by design.

What I'm trying to say is that MMO's have about 20% (by your numbers) PvP and FPS games have about 75% PvP because of game design. When a game is designed for co-op play, no matter the game type, that's what is most used. When a game is designed for PvP... guess what... that's what you get.

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I would, but my main's a Fire/Ice tanker. I'm sure he'll have enough of his own little handicaps, being built as a PvE monster, not PvP. Should still be fun to play, tho. I've pretty much avoided the defense based powersets like the plague.

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Well then you should help demonstrate on test why acc needs to be reduced for fully slotted HO'ers. If you live longer than an Ice tanker while taking just as much agro from the other team, then acc has serious issues, if not, then you've proven your previous post wrong and we can all celebrate that PvP is a little more balanced than previously thought.

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Giving people the opportunity to get HOs from other avenues sounds like a great idea, until you actually do the math on them. If nothing else, defense based defenses (SR, Ice Armor, Force Fields, Fortitude, Weave, some of the others) become worthless in a "everybody has HOs" arena. SR isn't entirely so, but a fully six slotted defense HO SR scrapper can only get to the point where going up against a fully slotted Dmg/Acc blaster has an effective 25% defense (IIRC, the numbers are further up the thread) and the Ice Armor tanker is only going to be able to get the defense he needs if he can get about 30 enemies to stand right next to each other and hits Energy Absorption plus runs six slotted toggles. IF that discrepancy was fixed, then HOs from alternate sources might make for an interesting idea, albeit a massive time sink. But, hey, there's nothing else to do with the 50s but play PvP or go raid Hami, as has been pointed out.

I don't know what the balancing point would be then, tho. Resistance based defenses become a LOT better with HOs, as there's an artificial cap. Until sonics go in, there's no point in adding extra resistance past that, so you can get away with a lot fewer slots in your powers, and/or a couple fewer powers. The current favorite for Invuln tankers (6 slot Unyielding, 1 slot TI, 1 slot RPD, 6 slot REl, 6 slot REn for 90% across the board) could easily turn into (6 slot Unyielding, 3 slot REl, 3 slot REn, 6 slot RP) means a savings of one slot AND one less toggle to run. Another option would be to remove RPD and run TI, which means higher energy consumption but 6 total saved slots. So do you crank up defenses, so that you have to slot less? Or make defensive enhancements be more powerful, meaning that everything but 6 slotted Acc/Dmg becomes a cakewalk with the current number of slots in a power? Or do you add some arcane math that makes it so that once you're above the amount of defense that would be required to take an unenhanced attack to 5%, your defense amount is doubled? That's confusing just writing it, the math or actually doing it would be doubly so, and still might not address the inequality. Or how about an accuracy cap of 2 times the unenhanced ability?

Until the defense issue is addressed, adding more HOs to the arena doesn't seem the way to go.

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Why not cap accuracy? Or even reduce the effect of accuracy enhancements against heroes. My guess is that they're going to play with this a lot before they release it on live. Anything that happens on test is going to be used by the devs to try and clean it up and make it a little more even. So I say, bring your SR scrappers and Ice tankers to test, get your butt whooped (with only a 5% chance of getting missed)

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nope, your message board name will not be altered if you change your global chat handle.

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Just as your chat handle will not be changed if your mb name is changed.

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I doubt there will be any correllation between leading a raid and succeeding in PvP beyond the contribution of the HOs, and the fact that the raid leaders may be PvPing in strong SG groups. There are tons of very good players out there that have not lead Hamidon raids, or even gone on them.

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I agree that there are lots of good players who avoid the raid like the plague. There are some very good, very experienced players who have not yet reached level 50 either. But the people that lead those raids have organizational skills and in game experience that boggles my mind. Maybe some of them don't have the experience in CoH, in fact I'm sure a lot of them are ex EQ players. Either way, they tend to be the type of person who will analyze everything for a weakness... those people are usually successful at PvP.

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CoH mostly avoided farming/uber-loot insanity (yes, HOs have been around forever, but they were kinda pointless). I am not alone in saying: "This is fundamental to why I love CoH!"

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I agree. HO's in recent times have done nothing but cause arguements. But, the HO's are here, and they are here to stay. So, instead of making them not work, why not make it so that more people can get them by doing things other than raids. TFs or trials are fun ways of earning cool rewards at earlier levels, why not spread that to the high level content? One HO for a TF is a pretty reasonable exchange. Give people two or three of these TFs to choose from and then suddenly it's not farming, it's content.

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There's always a way to rig a fight in your favor in MMOG's, and the people who have HO's slotted in all of their powers are generally the type of people who will try to find that way.

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This would seem to be a variant of the "if we cannot make it perfect then why try at all" argument. Applied to all aspects of the game nothing would change - someone will find a way to 'rig' PvE content so why bother correcting Burn or Smoke Grenade or Wolf Farming?

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I am not suggesting that they leave in a known exploit, I am trying to point out that if you really wanted a completely even playing field, this is not the genre of game you want to play. This game, and any other RPG, will always, by design, have a way for someone to improve their character to it's fullest extent. I am not trying to suggest that they "do not try at all" to do that would be ignorant. What I am suggesting is that they try and make it more even by giving people other options than the Hamidon raid to get these enhancements.

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Well, those are thorny issues. HO's for sale, changing effectiveness in PvP, changing uses, all that stuff is pretty complicated and far-reaching.

But just knowledge and choice? I think that's a nice place to start for PvP.

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I agree that that would be a good start, but that would hardly solve the problem... in fact, it would only delay it. As far as HO's for sale, that's a bad idea, it would negate all the hard work that several people have done in order to get those enhancements. I think that there should be another way to get them though, a trial or a TF, or even several TFs that give them out as a reward, long ones, but not especially difficult ones, or short ones that are very difficult.

In any case, what we're both arguing for is options, you in how PvP is handled, and me in how HO's are handled.

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I'm curious. What are the "good points" against letting people know their opponents have HO's ahead of time, and how many? And what are the "good points" against letting people choose a "no Hami" option for fights if they want?

I have yet to see any. Choice is good, right?

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I've not seen anyone contest those options, other than someone who foolishly said that you can't see if someone has DO's or SO's. Those are both things that may be implimented, we don't know yet.

The people speaking against eliminating the effectiveness of HO's have good points in "I earned it" and "it's the only way to improve my character after I hit level 50". The same people have good points against an HO only weight class because there are many people who only have 1 or 2 of them, due to them not wanting to do the raid again.

Then again, the people on the other side keep saying that they want a fair and level playing field, and that's something that just won't happen, no matter what. There's always a way to rig a fight in your favor in MMOG's, and the people who have HO's slotted in all of their powers are generally the type of people who will try to find that way.

There are some people who want the hidden advantage, and the advantage given by 20+ HO's being hidden is just plain unfair.

Hence, both sides have good points.

Edit: I agree with the above post in some ways, choice is good as long as it doesn't hurt the other players. I like the idea of giving a number of each type of enhancement that is slotted (not what it does or even what power it's in), but I don't think that would solve it. There really needs to be other ways of getting Hamis... a TF or two would be a good way, heck, why not make the current TFs available to the 45+ crowd give out a hami at the end?

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But I don't have to accept that HO's should dominate PvP. Lose to a better build? Accepted. Lose to a better player? Accepted. Lose to better tactics? Accpeted. Lose to HO enhancements? Nope. Not accepting that.

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Even if they change the way HO's work in PvP, I think everyone is going to have to accept that the people that legitimately earned those HO's, I'm talking about the people who did the planning for the raids, will probably hold most of the upper echelon of PvP'ers. I'm not saying that they would completely dominate it, but they would very likely own at least half of the top ten even without the HO's.

That said, I believe that there will be something done in addition to what Statesman wrote about. If not now, then in the near future. More likely than not the enhancements won't be changed, but there should be something done about the method of aquiring them. I really don't want to have to go through the Hamidon raid more than once or twice to be viable in PvP, and a lot of other people don't either, especially the ones who are on dial up with computers that can barely go above the minimum graphical settings.

Since I started posting about this topic, my ranking in the forums shot down from 3 stars to 1, I know that I am in a dangerous position fence sitting as I am. But nobody seems to see that the people on both sides have really good points. I don't think that there should be anything further done to HO's, other than making them more accessable to people with crappy computers.