MrCaptainMan
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:I agree. The Shivans and nukes should be significantly lowered in strength and made attainable without having to risk PvP to get them.Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Um, yeah. I'll keep arguing with people who say the earth is flat also. Because they are wrong. The person who thinks they should get those PvE goodies without the risk of getting ganked is wrong. Period. Until they get a brain cell in their head and see that they are wrong and will continue to be wrong. They can argue until the sun burns out and they will still be wrong.
Shivans and Nukes come with the risk of PvP. Period. Any other expectation is selfish entitlement unreasonableness. Period.
Same goes for all the badges in the PvP zones, too.
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Quote:My apologies. I obviously wasn't clear enough, or maybe you're not a native speaker. I'll expand:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I must? How is it that I "must" know that? I've attacked unknown people in the past, just to find (afterward) that "Oh, it's you. New alt I see" frequently enough that, no, that's NOT something I "must" know.
What i meant was:Quote:
But as the game currently stands, you must know generally that any toon you meet in a pvp zone has to have a chance of being Noobly McNooblet, there just for badges.
But as the game currently stands, you must know generally
- by 'generally' I mean that I'd think it likely that you would have an overall impression, not specifically at any one PvP situation. I meant , well, 'generally'
that any toon you meet in a pvp zone has to have a chance of being Noobly McNooblet, there just for badges.
'Have a chance of' - like as in possibilities. I'm not saying that ALL toons you see in a PvP zone are noobs, but that it's fairly obvious (I think, anyway), from the various admissions of this from various forumgoers (including myself) that noobs DO go to PvP zoners for badges and whatnot. hence, you cannot state with utter certainty that a toon you encounter in a PvP Zone is not someone who, if asked, would say 'No, I am NOT a PvPer'.
Eco.
PS maybe it's the modal 'must' that was the difficult word. I was using it in the sense of 'I think it's very highly likely' rather than as any enforced obligation.
TL;DR: Toons who go to PvP zones are not always going to fight back. You know this. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Demonic_Gerbil
Ganking noobs is an exploit?
Hell, no. Nothing illegal about ganking noobs. I was just trying to help explain why it's against PvPers interests to remove anything from PvP Zones that encourages non-PvPers to go there.
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"But also we suspect there will be badges for never going rogue, so it could be impossible to get every badge"
I for one really hope this will happen somehow, because IMO it would help break the 'gotta have em all' mentality that perudes some of the badging community. Perhaps there coould be a contact that could be accessed to attain such a badge, for a 'promise' that the toon wouldn't ever switch. The tech for removing badges would need to be implemented though. I dont know if this is possible.
My badge-toon will be switching, but for concept reasons. The badges will be a happy side-effect.
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When you edit a published arc you have to wait till you get the chat message telling you its been changed and then reset your search or the version you're working on will be tge old version next time you save. I think it's sth like that? I republish, exit, search for sth else, play, quit, close down the AE ui, then re-open and start editing again.
I love Suppression btw.
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Woo! I won sth! Yay! /clapclap
thank you everyone who voted for me, and grats to the other winners and to the runners-up, too.
Thanks for running these, Bubba. You're a gent.
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"And, again, I don't know that that's you. I don't know you don't want to fight back. I don't know your "Just here for..." anything. I don't know that getting you started in a fight WON'T get you interested, or that AFAYC it's just a quick way back (in BB) to get inspirations, come back and clean my clock. Because, after all, those same IOs, inspirations, XP, etc. help YOU out as well."
But as the game currently stands, you must know generally that any toon you meet in a pvp zone has to have a chance of being Noobly McNooblet, there just for badges.
Whereas if there were NO pve enticements in the PvP zones, you'd be more likely to find the pop swayed towards those who want to pvp and make efforts to improve at it.*
the IOs are often mentioned by the pro-PvP anti-segregationist lobby. I think it's clear that, just as getting shivans is easier amd thus more desirable for a PvE-only player when there are no PVPers to deal with, having easy kills is better for PvPers who are comcerned with pvp rewards. Ganking noobs is a much more efficient method of getting IO recipes than straight 'as-intended' PvP
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Quote:I shpuld have made my question clearer lol.Originally Posted by Terror1
I dont give a damn who you are, as long as your name is orange you are a target.
Which do you prefer, fighting sb who fights back or sb who stands there and simply waits to die?
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I've been working on my 250 Heavy badge in RV off and on over the past week or so, getting ten or so Heavies per session, but of course the PvPers kill me (quite understandably, they're entitled to, not complaining about that) fairly often, and so my progress is not as fast as it could be.
I had an idea that perhaps there's a low-pop server with more of a guarantee of en empty RV.
If so, could I transfer my badge-hunter toon from Freedom over to that server to farm the heavy badge, and then transfer him back afterwards? I don't mind paying.
Is this a feasible plan, and can anyone suggest a low-PvP population server that would suit?
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MB, you are being quite evasive, it seems to me. I'm not arguing that when i enter a PvP zone for a shivan I know that I can be ganked. I know this. I'm telling you here that you DO have massive advantages over me when it comes to PvP, me personally. I'm rubbish at it, I'm not particularly interested in improving at it, and my toons are never built with it in mind. If I'm attacked, i simply wait (sometimes a bit impatiently, tbh) to die, hosp and leave.
If the IO recipes etc are the main thing for you, then of course it's definitely in your interest that players like myself are in the PvP zones. It's more desirable for you to have people like me in the zones as your targets than to have players who can offer more of a challenge to you be dint of being better at and willing to PvP.
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The next arc I tried was
TRIUMPH SERVER LEGENDS --- GOBLYN QUEEN X HEREBOY AMIA SHIRZAZI HEX, Arc ID 284447, by @Basquait
It was 2 missions long, had no briefing, no contact bio, and the first mission was set in the Ruladaak cave. I sallied forth, intrigued by the nav's instructions:
' 2 Lost Souls, CROM, Hereboy, Nemesis Enforcer, Welcome to Hell, THE REAPER, PRAETOR OF HELL, DEATHMATE '
The first spawn I met was 3 legionaires and a boss. I'm at default difficulty on my en/en blaster.
The fight was averagely challenging. I continued, and found the GOBLYN QUEEN X, a lvl 52 EB fire troller. Thank heavens for RotP!
A few more Cimerorans further on, I spooted DEATH ahead:
He wasn't on the Nav, so i decided to stealth past him.
Then I clocked 'Xavier Von Doom', an AV! Also not Nav'd, I left him alone lol.
Finally finding one of my Nav objectives, the Nemesis Enforcer, lvl 52 EB, I rather timorously attacked.
To no avail.
I had to give up, there, I'm afraid. I guess it might be fun for a team of EB-bashers, but there's nothing really there, storywise, at least as far as I got.
Bit of a shame, since the Objectives are quite amusing. I thought it might be shaping up to be a sort of B-movie classic.
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There's one question which I'd like PvPers to answer, actually, that might have a bearing on the 'segregation-good or bad?' debate: Do you enjoy killing PvEers who don't fight? if PvEers were'nt in the zone at all, if you never encountered a badger who sighed and took his hands off the keyboard and just waited to hosp, would that be a loss to your game?
Because if so, then I can see why PvPers wouldn't want Zone Event rewards moved somewhere else.
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Quote:I'm not sure i understand why you think that replicating the PvP zones in the arena would be 'taking them away' from PvPers, since what i'm suggesting would give you an identical experience as you currently have (and in fact, since there are more arenas than current entrances to the pvP Zones, there'd be more access too), but how about we rephrase it then? We leave the PvP zones as they are location-wise, but remove the Zone Event rewards and badges that currently entice PvEers to go there, and then we replicate the zones somewhere else as PvE-zones, with the Zone Event rewards and badges in place (with the temps nerfed to normalize them).Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I'm being argumentative here and not accepting this for a reason - For several, in fact. One is that there are already *only* four PVP zones. If we took the (unstated, but implied that "too few people are interested in it THIS way") argument that, well, we should take those away and rework them for this OTHER community - well, then why do we still have villainside? The same argument's been made that "nobody plays," it's "dead" (and "will be even more dead after GR") and the like. Is it *right* to take an area designated for one segment of the community away just because another segment wants it - and doesn't like that first segment?
Essentially, all i'm trying to engineer is a situation where a non-PvPer has absolutely no reason at all, including his own silly desires for badges or Shivans, to go into a PvP zone, without negatively affecting the play experience of the PvPers.
Slotting this scenario into my suggestion would necessitate adding another Pocket D, identical to the one now, somewhere else, where the RPers could go and be unhindered by the PvPers. I'm no hardcore RPer, but i don't think they'd be terribly bothered, tbh, cos they'd still have a Pocket D to RP in, wouldn't they?Quote:
What if the RP and PVP communities were reversed, and we were talking about just taking Pocket D away from the RP community so the PVP community could enjoy a nice "bar brawl" atmosphere without those pesky RPers trying to "make peace" and interrupt fights?
I can see that it's the method of accessing the zones that you're sticking on. You think the arena isn't as 'good' an access point, or something, is that it?Quote:
I can tell you I'd be arguing loud and long to protect that area for the RPers to just come and go as they please (without having to go into AE, or an "arena," or anything similar.)
I guess I could see how you might think that was ghettoising PvP somehow.
What about my earlier suggestion of simply having a choosable option at the normal entrance to the PvP Zones? You'd go to Atlas as normal to get to RV, and at the Dimensional portal, a popup would ask you to choose, just like we choose when Xones are full or at the train, for example. One version of RV would be identical to the one we have now, the other would have no PvP, a contact or 2, some PvE story arcs connected to the RV lore, and the badges would be gained via PvE methods.
What does that sound like to you?
This last reason is the hardest for me to argue against, because its anecdotal. I've never experienced anything wildly enjoyable about PvP during the hours spent badging in the various zones, but that's anecdotal too.Quote:
The other is that I have - more frequently than you'd probably think - had people who were "not interested in PVP" BECOME interested from doing so. Every single time? No. But often enough that THAT goal is still valid. Those people wouldn't go to an arena because, at the start, they *aren't* interested. (They often end up learning something about their class, as well, like the mastermind who was furious at me for attacking him when he "obviously didn't have a chance" - but wasn't even aware of bodyguard mode until I asked him why he wasn't using it to help himself survive.)
Quarrantining PVP to the arenas would eliminate that. And I wouldn't call that fair to anyone.
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Yeah, that's the main reason. My chosen parameters weren't very scientifically derived lol. First i hit 'search', which gave me all the DCs etc. So I checked the 4-star button. That gave me loads of arcs with plays in the hundreds, so i clicked on page 4, and then page 6, and then page 11 lol. Loads of single mission arcs which seemed by their descriptions to be farms (plus titles like 'Rescue the Communications Officers!' kind of gave a lot away) were still clogging it up, so I chose 'medium' I didn't choose 'long, because i quite fancy playing some 3-mission arcs, basically.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Arenas work that way, basically.
Personally, I prefer being able to pop in whenever I want, as well as not knowing from one minute to the next what's going to happen that we get in the zones. Could be empty, or I could find myself suddenly in the middle of a full team of the other side's players. It's far more interesting that way.
So maybe the Arenas need to be tweaked to simulate that experience (adding maps of the current PvP zones). They could add a button to the Arena interface that just acted as a direct immediate port to whichever of the 4 maps you wanted to choose, irrespective of how many Players were already in it. Remove the Zone Event rewards and any badges from these maps and at the same time, the 'real' PvP zones could be reworked as PvE zones with the Zone Event rewards still present, but much reduced in strength to make the risk-vs-reward factor normalized.
Would that system be acceptable, Bill? You'd still be able to "pop in whenever I want, as well as not knowing from one minute to the next what's going to happen that we get in the zones.", plus you'd never meet anyone uninterested in PvPing with you.
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Quote:This.Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
It takes 5 minutes to obtain a Shivan if nobody is using the zone for its stated purpose, and 2.5 hours (or more!) if lots of people are PvPing. Rather than acting as a compounding effect on PvP, it acts as a regulator: if too much PvP is happening, people will leave the PvP zone because they can't get the PvP zone reward. Worse yet, if the zone factions are balanced in numbers, rewards are harder to get than in the case of a gross imbalance. Everything about the zone reward system is inimical to balanced, widespread PvP.
It does seem a bit silly, doesn't it?Quote:
There are reward structures that make rewards easier to obtain as more people participate. The RWZ zone event makes it drastically easier to obtain Heavies when lots of people play the zone game. PvP zones have the exact opposite system.
This.
Is.
Dumb.
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Quote:I've got Shivans loads of times on various toons. I can't remember the last time I was attacked to any sort of annoyance level when doing a Shivan run. BB PvPers seem to stick to the warehouse roof in the middle for the most part, which is fine by meOriginally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you DON'T get attacked I'd say the Shivan is very overpowered for what you do to get it. And yet people complain because they get attacked 1 time out of 5 trips (guessing here, I have no idea how often it actually happens)
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Quote:I mean 'read stuff while they're doing the PvPing - I didn't mean that a player cannot like to PvP in RV on monday and then do some SFMArcs on tuesday, a TF on wednesday, etc. In my experience, the PvP I see is independent of any narrative reasoning for it. RPvP doesn't exist, does it?Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Here's a way to avoid that mistake in the future:
Replace "PVPer" with "Person." Amazingly, not one-dimensional people who do nothing but PVP. I PVP. I also RP. I also an a costume hound. I also go after lore and story arcs (example: writing out the initial AE guides, and doing the Kheldian backstory guide, both linked in my sig.) I play with other people who will PVP, who RP, some of whom are costume hounds, others who pursue "perfect" builds, soft caps, concept builds and the like.
So, in short, yes, some PVPers actually can and do "read stuff."
Well, I'd say that less would complain, because there's a subset of PvP-averse PvEers who would be happy with the nerfed Shivans they could get from the new PvE-versions of BB for example. Like me.Quote:
Result:
- Rewards in PVE zones get taken away and/or nerfed, per prior dev statements.
- PVE-only people then come to the boards and complain loud and long how it's "not fair they have to deal with PVP to get the good stuff."
Same arguments, just slightly changed, continue.
Yeah, you'd probably get people complaining anyway, but what can you do?
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Quote:Yes, that's what I said in my original suggestion. I'd rather see them reduced in power than removed outright - they are quite cool, and would still be even if they were nerfed to bring them in line with other temp powers (The anims etc are cool i mean; it would be a shame to see them go).Originally Posted by SwellGuy
As long as the shivans, nukes and patrol granted powers are removed or greatly reduced from that version.
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Quote:My mistake, I thought PvPers wanted to actually PvP, not read stuff.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No, everybody's *not* particularly happy. You make assumptions about PVPers not being "bothered about narrative." As well as prior dev statements about the powers, *and* the difference between the arena's scheduled, arranged matches and the completely random flavor of the zones.
There are *four* PVP zones. The only zone type there are less of are co-op zones (two, three when Pocket D has missions going.) How about not getting rid of them?
You want instanced versions, push for more missions using an instanced version of the zone - minus, or with appropriately *weakened and limited,* per dev statements - versions of some of the temp powers - for some PVE missions instead of saying "Blah, PVPers don't care, just take it away from them and let us get our shinies."
How about when you click on the entrance to any PvP zone you get an option to go to a PvE version (as I described above) with no PvP allowed, or the PvP zones as they are now, then? Would everyone be happy then?
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I thought i'd trawl some random arcs, and chose these parameters to avoid arcs already played to death, DCs and guesst arcs, and single mission farms.
First arc that caught my eye was
Crazy Train, by @Floride Arc ID 119239
It's a 3-mission comedy arc affectionately using the heavy metal music genre for its characters and its laughs, and I thought it was great fun. Terrible ticket haul, unfortunately, but pretty much a laff-riot for anyone who likes classic metal.
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Quote:Yeah, it doesn't say 'need 6 to finish' anywhere, does it?Originally Posted by BrandX
Okay, you were doing a TF with 2 (because 4 of the people left) that says "need 6 to start.
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Quote:This would reduce the PvEers in PvP Zones, but you'd still get PvE badge-hunters wanting those exploarion and heavy badges.Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
I did not say to remove PvP zones entirely but merely strip out everything PvE related (that includes the non-base guarding NPCs except the base turrets in RV) so people have absolutely no excuse to say "but I was only in there to get badges/farm!" because there would be nothing in there to farm and the only badges to get would be the exploration badges or the PvP focused badges (which capturing Pill boxes and controlling Heavies would come under since they are part of the PvP 'game' of that zone)...which are fairly easy to get even with a roving band of PvPers around.
I go to RV every now and then to get a few more heavies twards my 250 heavy badge. I don't mind being repeatedly ganked, in fact it's helpful as it gets me back to the hospital faster than having to run to the nearest pillbox to suiced, but if the PvPers start killing me before I get my Heavy, then i just leave.
My take on PvPers killing badgers who don't bother fighting back is like this:
Anyone in a PvP Zone cannot justifiably complain about being defeated, ganked, TP Foed, stalked, over adn over again, whatever.
They are IMO perfectly justified in calling the offending PvPer who won't leave them alone a dickhead, though.
If an old granny on the bus forgets her handbag and gets off, and i take it home, I can take her pension and bin the bag, laughing, but i'm a dickhead wether or not the environment allows me to be.
Look at kill-stealing, for example. If I follow a noob around atlas kill-stealing all his mobs, I'm being a knob. The game allows it though.
Rather than stripping all the PvE elements away from PvP zones, I'd suggest stripping all the PvP elements out and reworking the zones into PvE-only zones. There's a lot of potential in those zones that's wasted on the PvP community. PvPers don't seem to be all that bothered about narrative, for example. Why waste zones with a cool storyline like Bloody Bay, Warburg and RV on them? Let them use the arenas and give the arenas instanced versions of the current PvP zone maps. Give the PvP zones some contatcs and story arcs that tie in with their lore, and reduce the strengths of the nukes and shivans if necessary.
Then, PvPers can PvP just like they do now, but without having to put up with moany badgers etc, and PvEers never have to meet a PvPer.
Everybody's happy.
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No Allies or destructables in this arc!
Oh wait, there are three destructables, I forgot.
Play it anyway, it only takes ten minutes!
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Quote:AE is not dead. AE fariming may be dead, and i fervently hope so.Originally Posted by Quantum Phantom
But yes, back on topic, AE is dead. I have logged in every day since the patch to play, and every time I go into the Freedom AE Atlas building, there's like 3 people in there.
It is very sad.
I haven't noticed any huge difference tbh since before the nerf apart from a delicious absence of farmers spamming their undesirable wares in Atlas AE.
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