Mieux

[ QUOTE ]
I routinely used Darkest Night to interrupt engineers. I don't recall much badness coming from this.

[/ QUOTE ] DN has, IMO, the best of the Rad buffs. RI only debuffs Acc (and def, tho irrelevant to this discussion) which means the LT's and Bosses who can hit you through the -acc hit you for full damage, unlike DN.

If you get large enough spawns, RI will not hit them all and you can get killed on the alpha....i've seen this happen to Rads all the time who try and start the fight with RI. I've also seen DD's go down opening with DN on high levle mobs.

Before ED and I6, the debuff on RI and especially in the dual benefit of DN, that you could survive opening with those debuffs quite easily.

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of us unskilled folks prevent them from being built nearly every time.

[/ QUOTE ]Creating the FF gen is an interruptable event which means puttinga toggle on the Raider stops the gen from being created.....provided you are the first to aggro him....guess what happens when you are the first to aggro a mob in the spawn?

I never said I have perfect knowledge about the game. But unlike you, I recognize that I have imperfect knowledge and as such it gives me pause as to criticizing the devs about the choices they make.

[ QUOTE ]
This is incorrect. FFGs are affected by confusion.

[/ QUOTE ] Ah, then maybe the attacks were just missing. But now that I think about it, I do seem to remember my Ill/kin friend telling me that he had confused FF Gens. I think what I also recall was that Confusion did not make the eminators buff us. I never thought about whether it might not work on them even if it didn't buff us. I just assumed that if we were not getting buffed, then Eminators were immune to confusion.

In any event, thanks for testing and clearing this up.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, this is more a matter of preference than a glitch

[/ QUOTE ] Well, to be clear, I dont' think it's a "technical" glitch. But I think it is something they may not been considered or couldn't effectuate.

[ QUOTE ]
That PFF and Dispersion display both graphics isn't a glitch,

[/ QUOTE ] I would argue that the DB should be reduced to form a bubble within the bubble of PFF. If DB is still displayed as a large bubble, and this is no different with PFF on or off, then the fact that the effect is limited by PFF and the graphic isn't, is imo glitchy.

I am in the bubble...I get the bonus. I am still in the bubble...I get no bonus? Players should be able to rely on the graphic of the bubble to know that they are getting protection. My .10

[ QUOTE ]
Those appear to be different circumstances, hence the distinction.

[/ QUOTE ] As far as the particulars, yes...but this is general point, not a specific one. Graphics are not 100% determinitive.

[ QUOTE ]
It shouldn't be too hard to test, though - just hit the FFG with a hold, and then with a confuse. If your teammates get the buff, it still buffs. If not, it doesn't.


[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure why you think this would be dispositive. FF's and Eminators are immune to Confuse and Deceive every time I've seen this tried.

Does DB still put the individual bubble around a teammate when PFF is in operation? If not...then maybe the same test would be applicable to FF Gens. Does the bubble disappear around the Raiders? If it did, that would probalby be a strong indication the debuff is cancelled.

It seems very likely that the buff is auto and can't be turned off, especially on something like an eminator. As for as feelling like the hold stops the debuff on gens...

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen this too on very rare occasions.

[/ QUOTE ] It occurs to me that maybe when I saw/see this it might be from toons higher level than the mobs. I recall that they changed the way Monsters worked so that heroes could no longer be higher level than they were or something to that effect. So some of this knockback may have been before the changes were implemented.

Just on a nitpick binge aren't you? Obviously we are talking about glitches. Obvioulsy there should be an "always" in front of "determinative.

We are talking about, or at least I am talking about, things like Tar Patch's debuff graphic which used to stay on mobs long after the debuff wore off. Or maybe when I see disorient graphics on my toon and he or she is not disoriented. etc. etc. etc.

[ QUOTE ]
Considering none of the KB and Repel powers work on Monsters *at all* (or the majority of AVs for that matter), I fail to see where the skill of the Bubbler even enters into it...

[/ QUOTE ] Ha...I guess that explains why I felt so worthless.

As far as Knockback not working "at all" I know that KnockDown does. I know that KnockDown/Back can be implemented as the same power but differentiated by magnitude. I am pretty sure I've seen AV's get knocked back...but i won't bet my life on that. I thought I'd seen Monsters get pushed around, but maybe they were AV's, or maybe they were part of missions or maybe they were doing that thing were they they move, but you dont' see the animation of their feet moving and I thought it was a Hurricane or Force Bubble pushing them around. I've also been knocked back and the animation on my screen simply shows me being pushed backwards rather than knocked backwards. As I said above, the graphics don't always match the effect.

Case in point, Jump Kick on a target will show a knockdown animation even if the target has technically not been knocked down.

[ QUOTE ]
RI and EF provide four debuffs, not just three.

[/ QUOTE ] Your inability to understand what is being said here forces me to write you off.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm reasonably certain thats not the case. I believe you have to destroy them, because as Kali said, its not a toggle. At least, it was true back when my Ill/rad actually faced sky raiders.


[/ QUOTE ] My first experience playing CoH was with my DM/SR and my friends Grav/FF. I recall that when he held the FF's I was able to actually hit something....but that was back in I2...and as I've said...I've never specifically tested to see what effect a Hold has on FF's and Eminators. It's possible that their powers are implemented as passives.

In any event, FF gens make great anchors IME.

[ QUOTE ]
The graphic is still there because the power is still active. It's simply prevented from affecting anyone but the defender.

[/ QUOTE ] ...sigh....Yes Kali. I know that. The point is the graphic is not determinitve of what effect is in effect.

[ QUOTE ]
I've smacked them with Gravity Well and still seen the bubbles

[/ QUOTE ] The graphic remains....I don't think the buff does. Like a FF who uses PFF and DB together. IIRCC, the DB is still there, but it doesn't affect anyone.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I actually prefer it when the FF Generators get dropped...they make great anchors.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aren't you supposed to kill those first?

[/ QUOTE ]If you don't have a Rad? Yes. Otherwise, RI can genearlly neutralize their +DEF bonus, while at the same time sticking close to the Engineer who generally engages in melee.

In addition, I'm slapping EF on it as well. So I'm getting three debuffs and losing one in exchange for an anchor that won't flee the scene. It seems the majority of Sky Raider mobs are either Porters or Wing Raiders who do not make good anchors. In fact Porters and Wing Raiders, as anchors, will aggro other groups....and guess who they come and shoot first while your anchor is no longer debuffing them?

And lastly, if I have a controller on the group, RI on the FF Gen will allow the controller to reliably Hold the gen, which I believe stops the bubbles, but I haven't tested that.

[ QUOTE ]
All this from a lvl 27 perspective? Really?

[/ QUOTE ] My TA is 27, I've a bunch of other toons that are much higher. More importantly, I have a strong fundamental understsanding of the game, the AI, the powers in other sets and AT's. Being able to tell that Emp/Rad to use Irradiate so as not to have to target Oil Slick makes a difference. Before that, I had her target me to set it off because in large groups she couldn't find it. This makes a difference. Using Entangle A to keep Hurricane using Shaman and Sorcs from advancing on you or your team....makes a difference. Rad can't do that. Kinetics can't do that. Ice Arrow (which should be renamed to Cryo Arrow) can turn off Hurricane and CoT Midgnight Chill debuff powers. Rad, Kin, FF, and Sonic can't do that (well, Kin can drain endo with Transference). TA has lots of tools. The trick (no pun intended) is knowing where and when to use them.

In one of my first replies to someone's TA question, I said that I would not recommend TA as your first or second defender. I also would not recommend TA as your first or second toon. Slotting is a thing a lot of people don't understand. Though TA's slotting is comparatively simple and straight forward, if you don't know slotting, you might not know that. You might waste slots on things like extra accuracy for Flash Arrow.

[ QUOTE ]
Read my last post, please.***Read my above post.

[/ QUOTE ] I read it...I think you want me to comment on it. Since you asked nicely...

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The recharge times, as was said earlier, were changed before the set went live. More importantly, before ED. They were timed without ED in mind.

[/ QUOTE ] First off, there have been many allegations that recharge times for various powers didn't take into account ED. My understanding from various dev posts is that this is not true on a general level. Recharge times were set with ED in mind, and more importantly, as I talked about previously, they were set with the max recharge buff in mind: Speed Boost + Acc Met + Hasten +Adre Boost + Six SO's. I can't say for certainty that some mistake wasn't made with some specific power in TA or otherwise, but on a general note, I think you are operating under false assumptions.

Second, I play Trick Arrow. I've seen the avialability of my powers. It seems fine. Not only does it seem fine, I don't use Hasten but maybe 30% of the mission. I've frequently used Oil Slick back to back spawns at lvl 26.

The fact is, most teams don't sprint through missions. Someone is always pausing for one of fifty reasons. Maybe one spawn out of fifteen, we'll start the fight and PGA won't be immediately ready. Even when I do small teams and we blast through the mission, literally without pausing, I don't need to use every debuff every fight. I'm not going to use DA on three +1 or +2 minions when one of my teammates is a blaster. It's just a waste. In that situation, by the time my Rad got EF and RI down, one if not two of the minions would already be dead. And PGA recharges fast enough, I can use it every fight and multiple times in a fight. With Hasten, and +++ SO's, PGA is basically perma for things like AV fights (though obviously an anchor debuff is better for single targets).

[ QUOTE ]
It's fine for you, from your limited perspective, to think that the set is fine

[/ QUOTE ] I'd be willing to argue my perspective is much broader than yours. Rather than bemoaning what I can't do and acting like everyone else can do what I can...I recognize what I can do that others can't. I've played the other sets. I've teamed with the other sets. If you want to feel worthless in a fight, go fight a Monster with FF. Unless you can find a corner to FB him into...you are going to annoy others if you push it into other mobs or out of location AoE's. Bubbles are very helpful, but you get very little direct feedback from their effectiveness. Players certaintly don't tell you.

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It's ok. It's passable, but it really does need work.

[/ QUOTE ] Show me a set that someone doesn't think needs work? Maybe you can...maybe there's one or two...maybe, but I doubt it. Like I2 /Regen, TA is not very good at low level. Because the recharge timers are balanced for at least three SO's each, TA feels really really weak at low level. I have stated that many many times. At level 27, I feel that I always have a "trick" up my sleeve and I honestly feel like I am more effective than anything but a D/D or a very well played and slotted Rad. Though, as I said before, given the right cirumstances, Storms can render mobs completely harmless.

[ QUOTE ]
But post-ED the set was even further gutted and that specifically needs to be addressed.

[/ QUOTE ] It's your perrogative to pursue that agenda. In the meantime, I will continue to tell people who ask about TA/A that it's a great set if you have skill...once you get past the teens.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are getting higher debuff benefit out of TA than rad, that speaks more towards your skill with TA and rad than the balance between the sets

[/ QUOTE ] Not necessarily. It also requires that you look at the attendant conditions in the game. If the AI made all mobs in a spawn spread out after the group is aggro'd, then TA's who got off things like PGA and FA before aggro, would be getting a higher benefit. CoT Thorn Casters do not clump and will move to range. The spectral nights are constantly flying in and out of battle. Nuons do not clump without herding. Some Nemesis won't even herd. Sky Raiders are a real challenge to anchor. Porters..nah. Wing Raiders...nah. So you need to spend time making sure you spot the right mob to debuff. I actually prefer it when the FF Generators get dropped...they make great anchors.

If every set's AoE did knockback...then TA is going to debuff better on average. Etc...etc.

The game provides uncertainty. Sometimes anchor debuffs work great and your anchors are always the last to die and never run off because the controller keeps them single target held. Sometimes you play with an En blaster or /En defender or a Stormie who thinks Hurricane has to be used ALL the time...and you wish you'd taken two attacks instead. Sometimes, despite your macro's which call out who the anchor is...it still dies...repeatedly. Sometimes, you fight DE for 10 straight levels and the chain mezing of Harders makes toggle debufffing pointless.

I have already said that RI and EF provide better debuffing on paper. That isn't even debatable. What is debatable is the real benefit teams derive.

Tonight...I got SK'd by a lvl 40 to fight Jack of Irons. My lvl 27 TA/A with stale SO's (hadn't even gotten my level yet)...the lvl 40 Inv/? and two blasters...one En ...one Ice. No healer. No defeats. The tank said he was impressed that my debuffs were as effective as they were. I don't recall ever getting any such compliments on my Rad or Dark's debuffing (though this is more an example of expections and not effectiveness..lol).

Oil Slick actually provides a massive reduction in damage. I notice it continues to do knockdown the entire time it burns. Jack spent a significant portion of his health on his back. It was great when the En blaster used Nova and lit the Oil Slick without me having to tell him ...booyah!!!!

In fact, I had an Emp/Rad get pumped on the teamwork of me setting it down and her lighting it. At first she couldn't target it, and then I told her Irradiate baby...Irradiate. She kept asking me to use it...lol. Oil seems to light almost all the time when pure energy is used.

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There are a lot of good rads as well, but unlike trick arrow, the set allows for bad rads: bad rads are semi-decent, bad trick archers are worthless.

[/ QUOTE ] This is fundamentally my exact point when I say TA is great if you are skilled.

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Mieux, that would be one thing.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what you mean by that.

The debuff appears to be applied by the pet...not the defender.

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Check it out for yourself though Mieux. Fire at a moving target when other targets are around it...

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure this proves what you think it does. When I fire PGA at a Tsoo sorc...and he teleports before the arrow fires....the patch shows up on him...and in the location he was before he teleported. What happens graphically, is not necessarily what happens functionally.

From my use of the power...since I haven't seen a dev explain it....Glue lays down a glue patch. This immediately debuffs everyone in the area...and anyone who enters it after it's planted. After the patch itself disappears i.e. no longer able to debuff new targets...the debuff will remain on mobs who had been in the patch.

[ QUOTE ]
you are telling people that they don't know what they are talking about yet don't even know what you yourself are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ] That's almost right Concern. Except I admit that I don't "KNOW" what is going on technically. Goofy seems to think he knows exactly what the issue is with balancing Glue Arrow. He knows the underlying tech so well, he can malign the devs for the decision they've made. Before I pass judgement on the decisions make by Geko et al. I need to "know" how the power works. Goofy acknowledges no such constraints.

[ QUOTE ]
implying, if not flat-out stating, that if you don't think TA is great, then you are unskilled)

[/ QUOTE ] This is really the core of your tantrum against me.

Kinetics is a great set if you are skilled.

TA is a great set if you are skilled.

FF can be a good set if you are skilled

Dark and Rad are just plain great sets.

Are we done now?

EDIT:

And when I say "skilled" I am referring more to a large and comprehensive knowledge about the game i.e. slotting, mobs, other AT's and powers, AI, etc. etc.

[ QUOTE ]
That point was in reference to my statement that a radiation defender has the option of using his toggles every fight. Since you couldn't deny this (since it was obvious I was talking about RI and EF), you leapt on Choking Cloud for some reason.

[/ QUOTE ] You made a broad statement. I countered that broadness with specifics. I can FA and PGA every fight. Every fight.

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This is something I find amusing, since you maintain that the 120- and 180-second recharge timers on Trick Arrow powers is adequate, yet a 90-second timer on Choking Cloud is "long."

[/ QUOTE ] I made no contentions about comparative adequacy. I made statement about comparative availability. Get the discussion straight.

[ QUOTE ]
And basing a statement off of one Radiation defender you met clearly takes everything into consideration. Well done!


[/ QUOTE ] The statement is conclusive proof that other sets have problems. Something which you conveniently ignore in your own incessant whining.

[ QUOTE ]
In regards to knockback and the potential problems it causes with anchors, that's not so much a problem with the set as it is with the player causing the havoc.


[/ QUOTE ] High-larious. It's problem with the set because the set is designed in the context of the game. How daft can you be? By intentionally making the set rely on anchors, you introduce an intended hurdle for the set. Anchors don't just get killed as I've mentioned several times and which you completely ignore. You also get mezzed, anchors also leave the area.

[ QUOTE ]
It is possible to educate people about anchors.

[/ QUOTE ] It's possible to educate people about a whole lot of things. Whether they use that education, or whether they choose to follow your recommendations is another issue. Educating people takes time. Time I'm glad I don't have to waste.

[ QUOTE ]
yes, you need to expect opposing opinions.


[/ QUOTE ] I expect opinions...but I expec them to be informed and intelligent and delivered with integrity. Ignoring facts which weaken your position shows a lack of integrity.

[ QUOTE ]
I play my Kinetics defender quite well, and have done amazing things with my stormie. I guess I'm both "unskilled" and "savvy" in The Book of Mieux! Go me!


[/ QUOTE ] I have no specific knowledge about your comparative skill with the various sets. But considering your posts on TA my educated guess is you suck at it. I'd probably suck at Storms...I don't have the mindset to deal with a that set. If I played a Storm and complained about it constantly, as you do with TA, I would expect some people might be able to determine that I was not very good at it.

If I complained about problems in Storm and acted like every other set had no problems, like you do with TA, I'd expect posters to see me as having no integrity.

[ QUOTE ]
and have done amazing things with my stormie

[/ QUOTE ] Storm can do great things given ideal circumstances. The problem in game play is those circumstances don't generally arise. The rest of the time, Stormies are creating more problems than they are solving. And even if they "defend" the team with those methods, I generaly find teaming with Stormies can make battles last far long than necessary because Hurricane tends to separate mobs more than it groups them.
[ QUOTE ]
After all, you did claim that telling someone they suck isn't a personal attack.


[/ QUOTE ] I never said "you" suck, I said you suck at playing TA. I stand by that based on your posts.

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone on the planet Sanity, however, acknowledges that it underperforms and needs help

[/ QUOTE ] Too bad Sanity is just a figment of your imagination.

[ QUOTE ]
If you need mutation every fight, find a new team.


[/ QUOTE ] I didn't mean to include Mutation. I think I was thinking of Fallout and Chocking Cloud and other things that have long recharge...which I didn't include beause it wasn't really about long recharge.

[ QUOTE ]
Which is exactly how they moderate the spectral terror

[/ QUOTE ] IIRCC, ST has a much shorter duration than the debuff of Glue. ST has also been nerfed, IIRCC because it's implementation was really powerful. And some other facts (which I haven't confirmed)...ST is not an PBAoE like Glue, it's a cone. Once you move out of ST's range, you're free from the effect. I beleive ST still has to hit. I've moved through it with my /SR and not been affected...no true with Glue.

So bottom line is that you are comparing incomparables.

[ QUOTE ]
there is a devil's choice of burning time applying debuffs to gain their benefit

[/ QUOTE ] So first people argue that the debuffs aren't as good...we showed that some are as good and subjectively better.

Then they argued that the weren't available... [ QUOTE ]
While the limiting factor might no longer be debuff availability

[/ QUOTE ]

Now as the water level lowers, we are down to argueing that the activation time is substantantive.

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This choice is not just the same choice everyone else has, because the high activation costs of archery in general make it a qualitatively different choice.

[/ QUOTE ] So you feel that there is qualitative issue here? Okay. IMO, there isn't. Yes, it takes as long as 10 or seconds or more to fire FA + GA + PGA + OS + DA, but the order in which I shoot them minimizes the penalty that all can't fire at once....and I have the same issue with my Rad. If I start with RI, there are a fair number of mobs not affected who blast me. It takes a comparatively equal time to get EF and <what is that slow power again?> If CC gets knocked off, it seem to take as long as FS to activate.

Every power set has some issue. Every power set should have some trade-offs which we do not all weigh equally. Activation time makes the set an issue for you? Fair enough. I actually find it acceptable because the animation is very real and immersive. Snap shot looks like a snap shot. The rest of the animations look like I'm really taking aim and drawing the bow. Whatever penalty I pay for in activation time seems trivial to me in terms of aesthetic value of playing the set. But that's my opinion.

I thnk the important thing here is you've acknowleded this...

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While the limiting factor might no longer be debuff availability...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Two effects are applied when you cast Glue Arrow (it helps if you know how the power works). One is that a debuff is applied to every mob in the AoE effect of the power on casting of the power and this is due to the TA defender. Then, a pet or spawn is created that casts it's own debuff every tic. These already do not stack. Obviously they can make non-stacking debuffs.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't believe this is correc.t The debuff is applied by the patch...not the defender...otherwise they would stack. I can stack debuffs with Dark Servant.

As you point out, Glue does two things. It applies a sticky debuff which is not dependent on its existance and it also reinfects anyone who enters the patch. This means that after the patch is gone, mobs are still affected by the debuff.

Now, I don't have a dev response saying this is how it works, but as you said, it helps to know how the power works, which appears to be different than your understanding.

[ QUOTE ]
So, removing the pet and applying the same mechanics of Smoke Grenade and other powers could work.


[/ QUOTE ] I've already addressed this. It's a question of making the power too good. Permanent anchorless, sticky, debuffs are very powerful. This is probably why FA is lower than DN and why PGA only debuffs one thing.

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, Choking Cloud has a long recharge timer...

[/ QUOTE ] Uh yeah Goofy...nevermind AM, Mutation, and <can't remember the name of the Slow debuff atm> aren't avaialble "every fight."

[ QUOTE ]
I've introduced a fact, and I know you don't like those much at all.


[/ QUOTE ] What I don't like is your inability to recognize facts that undermine your position. That is what makes your posts contemptible. You give them ZERO weight or relevance.

[ QUOTE ]
Right. One rad defender's experience must logically cancel out everyone else's. Just like Trick Arrow, right?


[/ QUOTE ] <sigh>....This highlights the facts that other sets have problems. Problems which you act like don't exist. As Jynne points, your reference other set's abilities is done in a vacuum. You pretend every other set has 100% effectivenss 100% of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I can play it to the best of its boundaries. It's still grossly underbalanced as a defender primary.

[/ QUOTE ] That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. And everytime I post my opinion, you come and try to shoot it down. What makes it egregious is your inability to concede your own ignorance.

[ QUOTE ]
you couldn't stack patches, just the debuffs from patches.

[/ QUOTE ] lol...right. But because of how GA is implemented, the debuff would stack. Because FA has no patch...it is not instantiated as a pet. Thus, it's debuff appears to be controllable. A self-canceling pet creates a "new" caster and thus the debuffs would stack...AFAIK.

I don't know this is correct. Maybe the devs could make it self-canceling, non-stackable. But Castle already said that Tar Patch cannot stack with "itself" but it can stack with another Tar Patch. I presume he meant from the same caster...as we saw back in I4.

The bottom line is calling the choice of solving the issues a "cheap way out" is, IMO, a cheap shot without being able to explicitly lay out what is and what is not possible and underscores the ad hominem approach I've seen GP and other "TA Sucks" posters take.

[ QUOTE ]
It -might- have something to do with teaming

[/ QUOTE ] I don't know. But not too long ago...I was using OS on a team and I lit it a small fraction of the time...like 25%. And the way people have been criticizing it not lighting, I thought that was normal.

In any event, it's good to know that my previous experiences were probably anomalous. Thanks for the FYI.

Guess I won't waste my money on Lotto...

[ QUOTE ]
No Im not missing anything.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, you missed it entirely by raising the question to begin with. GP tried to make a point. He does this by insulting the devs..and I quote:

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, self-stacking was overpowered. However, rather than address the self-stackability, they took the cheap way out and introduced unprecedented recharge timers.


[/ QUOTE ] So I don't care if you disagree with me that self-stacking was overpowerd, because GP is the one who said it. More to the point, GP then accuses the devs of "taking the cheap way out." He believes it's "cheap" because of his fundamental ignorance about the game. He thinks they should have lowered the recharge so that it is perma...but doesn't stack. As Kali and I have pointed out...this isn't possible on two fronts. You didn't get it. If you did, you'd understand why his referrence controller pets was wholly off the mark. Erasing one Glue Arrow patch and putting down another creates a continuous, anchorless, sticky debuff. This is one of the reasons why Dark was so ridiculous before I6 and still uber...Fearsome Stare.

[ QUOTE ]
And one that Im not sure I agree with you on, but either way it's irrelevant to how powers functionally work in the game.

[/ QUOTE ] No it's not irrelevant. It's completely relevant to this entire tangent. It is because a power might be too good the devs implement it one way or another.