Mieux

Let's work this out in a PM.

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go gather your team if ya have the balls

[/ QUOTE ] No, this is one on one my friend....my skill versus your skill. No leaning on your friends to bail you out.

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I absolutely agree that kill-to-death ratio is not necessarily a reliable indicator of an imbalance.

[/ QUOTE ] If the balance metric is "risk vs reward," a philosophy that Statesman has preached is one of the fundamental guidelines for changing CoX...then K is probably one of the best metrics to use.

More importantly it shows (depending on when they started keeping score) that despite heroes teaming, they are unable shore the gap between stalkers and say scrappers and blasters.

People are sick of K because it basically throws all the bogus logic and claims they've been making right back in their face. It shows conclusively that "blasters" and scrappers are not doing the same thing as stalkers..not even close.

If stalkers were "balanced" for PvP then why would their K be so much higher "it isn't even funny"?

When you give a toon Stealth, massive unresisted damage, Scrapper level defense, and status protection, and combine it with the escapability of something like Super Jump, you have to be brain dead not to see how it's going to turn out.

The saving grace for the devs is that this was not designed for PvP, but a consequence of PvE. PvP has to deal with mechanics that are necessary for PvE. They devs then go back and try to fix PvP after the fact. Depending on the nature of the imbalance, like 1v1 PvP...somethings are seen as higher or lessor priority. How long has it taken them to stop Hurricane from pinning people in a corner?

The other justification the devs could claim is that their first objective was to create the "stalker experience" and then their second objective is to reconcile that with the rest of the game.

That fact that the K ratio is so massively distorted for stalkers is a undeniable proof that the problem was just what people said it was. It also shows that stalkers were/are in denial and were completely biased in presenting comparisions (surprise surprise). Nobody was doing what stalkers were doing and the devs see it as a problem. That is now a fact and not subject to debate.

K may not be the final tool for fine tuning, but it is spot on at this stage of the game.

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Recharge only matter to the next target, not the one in front of you.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, this statement proves you live in a dream world or at least retreat there whenever someone exposes you for not having the foggiest notion of what you're talking about.

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at least not against anyone with any level of skill or teamwork

[/ QUOTE ] Any time you want to test my PvP skill, send me a PM. I'll be glad to give you a first hand experience.

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something i wont ever have to worry about in recluses victory is fear that i will be hunted down by heros because as we all know heros always stay together

[/ QUOTE ] If you can be seen, someone will hunt you.

In RV...you will be seen.

Even if someone can't see you, but knows you are there, they can hunt you. My /regen has killed pleny of solo stalkers who thought they were doing the hunting.

QN...I can tell by your post that you are already stressed about it.

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then i guess me getting one shotted by a scrapper with buildup and head splitter with a crit doesnt count huh.

[/ QUOTE ] The PvP zones have global debuff/buffs which people seem to be wholly ignorant of in these discussion. Considering you can increase your damage output by 15% and decrease someone's dmg resistance by 15%, IIRC, then a wide range of experiences are possible, though maybe not common.

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but people complaining that they will suddenly be taking massive amounts of additional damage

[/ QUOTE ] Well, let's see ...if I can use three recharges in addition to my three acc/dmg...my DPS is close to doubling because of the three recharges I can now slot because of HO's.

So yes...in some cases, HO's can almost (can't ignore animation and the Recharge/(1 + xx) equation) double the damage you're receiving...at least from the slower charging heavy hitting attacks.

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I never said that HO's didn't give an advantage

[/ QUOTE ] I think you have a little more back-pedaling to do just yet.

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HO's do not make a difference because of ED. HO's do not increase damage or ACC beyond what SO's offer since ED was implemented.

[/ QUOTE ] There's that rock solid logic so often found on these boards...

Never mind that using three slots, you are most likely exceeding the accuracy of any SO'd toons. Nevermined that with three slots, you have three more slots which can all be slotted for recharge which would increase your DPS substantially. Nevermind that if you chose to six slot with Acc/Dmg, you would be getting a beneift over other SO'd toons 10% greater accuracy and damage like having someon on your team running Assault and unslotted Tactics.

No, HO's don't provide any increase in damage for those who can fully slot them. Can I have yours please?

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Why is it that every single aspect of the game has to be geared towards giving the heroes the advantage?

[/ QUOTE ] hahahaha ...that's rich.

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The point is that the huge advantage that multiply stacking CM, and multiply stacking TACTICS give, simply cannot be balanced by GI in the current way it works.

[/ QUOTE ] Hunh...so what you're saying is that a team can gain the advantage over Stealth and that's not fair?

But it was completely fair that invidual stalkers could gain the perception advantage over other solo toons? Wow...how quickly stalkers whine when they lose the upper hand. Where is the attitude that you should "get some skillz" as was so often repeated to players complaining about stalkers?

Why not get a team and play as a steam so you don't have to rely on being invisible?

Or better yet, there are plenty of ways to fight heroes that can see you....after all...it's not like you can't see that Empath and it's not like that Empath is going to one-shot you is it?

Btw, does AS still crit if someone can see you? By golly it does, as long as you have the hidden flag.

Are you saying it isn't fun when you're a stalker and you can be seen? Oh. But of course it doesn't matter if it's no fun when you can't see a stalker. Now that the shoe is on the othe foot, this just isn't fair.

What I think is encouraing is that none of the APP's for Stalkers have a stackable Stealth power. Conclusively shows that devs did not intend that Stalkers should be allowed to attack other players completely unseen as a part of their MO. Think about that.

The devs knew full well that tons of /SR's and /DA's are going to get FA..not to mention that /Regens can take Tactics and FA and put an end to inviso ganking.

I find it amusing that now that people really do have "tools" to see stalkers....stalkers don't like it. It was fun to tell people that they had tools, when we knew that those tools were by and large ineffective all but specifically built teams, as Castle's revelation reveals, but now that solo Scrappers can truly counter your inviso...it's just not fair is it?

Let me PM Cuddles, he's always sympathetic to the Stalker cause. Maybe he can petition on your behalf.

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There's another issue with GI though that's PvE related... i

[/ QUOTE ] As you apply GI, it drops the previous app of G.I. Perhaps it's done as a necessity to prevent it from self-stacking. At some point it has to negate the old effect before applying the new duration.

Yes, if you attempt to re-Inviso a toon standing in the middle of a spawn, they will aggro as you re-apply GI.Unfortunately the gap between dropping and reapplication is long enough for mobs to instantly target you...as is the nature of a comptuer AI. Fortunately for stalkers, humans aren't as quick to react.

Nevertheless, the way GI functions has been known to those of us who have been using it since suppression was added. Nothing Castle has posted indicates a change of any sort in how GI has worked.

On 11/15/05, I asked:
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I think it would help a lot of the players if you explain how the devs perceive the AT is balanced in PvP and how that actually plays out in PvP...not how it plays out theoritically.

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On 3/31/06...Castle finally provided us with an answer:
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Additionally, this change was mostly aimed at the Bloody Bay and Siren's Call levels where Stalkers are so far above any other AT in Kill Count vs Death Count that it isn't even funny. In higher level PvP zones, players have plenty of options of dealing with Stalkers, which *should* force Stalkers to Team more.


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I'm glad to see devs give us feedback on what some of us knew would be true or many were claiming to be true. Thank you for the feedback.

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Calling Castle a single-minded stalker hugger is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ] Agreed. When someone does that, let me know. In the meantime, stick to the facts.

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You owe Castle an apology for that...

He has been nothing short of an amazing liason to the player community. He has been working on several ATs, not just Stalkers... The poor guy even likes looking over numbers on his lunch hour!

[/ QUOTE ] One has nothing to do with the other. Don't imply something that has not been stated.

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I was willing to initially spend significant time testing things with you, a willingness that it took no time at all for you to make me regret.

[/ QUOTE ] Oh, I just have to expose you here. I never intended to bring up the results of my decided victories over you. In fact, you were the first to mention them publicly in an insult that the my supposed loses to your stalker were my motivation for some post. Except I beat your stalker all but one time. And rather decidely with my /regen. Nevertheless, you distorted the truth to try and caste me in some negative light. You discussed some private testing publically, and you did it in a classless manner. I had no problem taking off the gloves at that point.
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This would be the fifth time you've suggested that my PvP experience is limited, and by extension yours is somehow superior

[/ QUOTE ] Fighting against stalkers? Yes...by your statements, I perceive your experience to be limited compared to mine. Extremely limited.
Le'ts look at one of your own statements.
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Stalkers were not explicitly designed for 1v1 combat. In fact, they are *most* effective in teams, where something else can distract the target long enough for the stalker to strike.

[/ QUOTE ] While it's true that no AT was designed 1v1 PvP...if stalkers are more effective in teams, then someone needs to let them know.

You don't need someone to distract your target, when your target can't see you. Or have you never fought against stalkers with a defender?

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Yes Mieux, the problem is with everyone else

[/ QUOTE ] Hunh...so the hundreds and hundreds of posters who complain about Stalkers in PvP...don't count?

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With me

[/ QUOTE ] You mean the woman who was in a rush to be the first Stalker to 40 on Triumph? No...you wouldn't be biased at all would you?

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with Castle

[/ QUOTE ] ah yes...the Stalker rep during CoV Beta. Well, it's certainly beyond the possibility he might have a bias towards stalkers isn't it?

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Someplace somewhere, I'm sure there are people much more like-minded as you.

[/ QUOTE ] You mean like the opening poster....lmao...or maybe Pilcrow, or Hunter, or Helmkat, or any number of rationale posters who perceive a problem?

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You would be insufferably annoying if you weren't also very sad.

[/ QUOTE ] <laugh> What's that phrase about people in glass houses? I can't remember at the moment as the tears are really starting to flow.

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Just do us all a favour and plug your cake hole.


[/ QUOTE ] Actually, I'm more into pie myself. Apple.

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...the number one problem with stalkers is that they can't be discussed rationally on the forums 99 times out of 100.

[/ QUOTE ] To have a rationale discussion, both sides must agree to basic truths. When you claimed that Stalkers would be "worthless" if Placate required a to-hit check, it precludes any rationale discussion. I didn't even suggest that it not work, you know..like how Gauntlet doesn't work in PvP? I just suggested that Placate require a to-hit. But your response was a blanket statement, made with limited PvP experience, and showing a complete unwillingness to understand any position but your own. You don't even want Assault to work against Placate.

When Castle states that any ranged check on AS makes it "virtually impossible" to use in PvP...ignoring the constant holds/immobilizes/slows, etcs accessible to villains, it pre-cludes any rationale discussion. My /regen was repeatedly and consistently held by a Plant dom today in Warburg. Brawl...and I'm held. A MM had Tar Patch 3 slotted with Slows. 3 out of 4 times...I never made it off that patch. I've been AS'd using Shadow Maul a TON. A stalker drops in right as I go to attack and AS hits me before I can move away.

A rationale discussion requires a baseline integrity and honesty on both sides. I have no problem with Stalkers being fun to play. It seems the pro-stalkers have an issue with Stalkers being fun to play against.

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Oh yeah...and let's not forget that Dark Corrupter who constantly Feared me as well.

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But why do you insist on referring to the AS ability as an "I win" button, especially when it has been repeatedly demonstrated that there are counters in the game...

[/ QUOTE ] Counters in the game are not universally available to every toon. AS is universally availabel to every stalker. When AS 1-shot kills me...it is an "I win" button isn't it? None of the counters "Win" against stalkers. They merely prevent you from getting either one-shot or two shot. They do not guarantee you any victories.

In Warburg the other day, any time a Stalker...including Ninja Blade, got an AS off on my defender successfully, despite my constant motion...they "Won."

Here is the Stalker problem in a nutshell, as expressed by a poster in a neighboring thread.

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In response to the OP....

At first, I thought fighting stalkers was challenging.

After a while, they just became annoying.

Now, I hate them.

Nerf the hell out of em'.

For example, this moring in Sirens I was getting into a bunch of 1v1's and 2v1's against non-stalkers. With a squishy...that's pretty fun. Never fails...just when I'm about to rock the house....or they've got me beat....a stalker that can't be seen jumps in. AS....dead. That's as lame as lame can be.

IMO, hide and stealth should not stack. That's what placate and smoke bombs n' stuff are for. AS is too strong when hidden. If placated...I've got no problem being 1-shotted. At least I know it's coming. But from hidden, it's just stupid.

Just my 2 cent. Fire away...

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The fact that Castle state's that checking AS's range twice has been discussed internally is proof-positive that at least some on the development team see the problem. The fact that they are even having internal discussions means that there is a problem. Take heart Buffy.

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Hell I'd like to see this for all melee powers..

1st check at [power range],

2nd check at [power range x 4].

[/ QUOTE ] I'd agree to that too. I honestly think the devs should error on the side of making it harder to defeat others. I'd have absolultely no problem with all melee attacks checking range. The only downside is server load.

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I've been on these forums since CoH beta and dude, we all have our bad days, but you are the single biggest jerk I've seen butt their way into a serious discussion about how powers work in this game.

[/ QUOTE ] Coming from somone who actually subscribes to the absurd arguments put forth by stalkers, I'll take this as a compliment.

Let me clue you into a little truth. Players in every MMO hate the inviso-gank toons. Rogue/Thieves/Assassin's are universally hated by others who have to deal with them. But Cryptic has gone ahead and added this AT despite this. Why? $$$$$$$$$

There is an army of 14 year-old's who get their rocks off by what amounts to as psuedo-griefing. The idea of killing someone who can't fight back appeals to certain percentage of the population. You know...when I see MM's in Siren's, I won't even attack them. It's hardly fair. If they are my bounty, I'll warn them first...unless they are FF in which case a warning means you'll have to spend 1/2 trying to brawl off PFF. Do you see stalkers refrain from AS'ing the same defenders repeatedly....no. Some people like cheap kills. Is it unique to stalkers? No. But it is the AT that most enables them...that's right AT..not set.

Players, lots of players, have come on these boards since CoV Launch and pointed out this situation isn't enjoyable. Do stalkers acknowlege any position but their own? No. Instead, they repeatedly make dismissive suggestions to the rest of the player community..."Get some skillz...PvP isn't for everyone...Get a team...PvP is not about 1v1." Yet...if the tables were turned...they'd whine like nobody's business.

Some of the more intelligent anti-stalker posters who actually have integrity, acknowledge that you can't completely destroy stalkers in PvP. Some of us recognize that solving the PvP problem must not hurt Stalkers in PvE. Some of us would even concede that if worse came to worse...Stalkers should remain as they are a as Cryptic is better off if it means more people will play on the whole...even if PvP is underutilized.

But you'ld have to have integrity to acknowledge that. You'd have to have integrity to acknowledge the other side of the equation and be willing to look for an equitable solution.

Please...show me that integrity in the stalker forums.

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Maybe you suck.

[/ QUOTE ] lmao...getting one shot is about skill isn't it? What was that about troll or rather ogre posting?

If I suck...then you suck worse as I repeatedly stomped your same level stalker with my /regen....didn't half to use anything but Recon.

Oh, and just curious how many lvl 15 toons you've actually taken into BB and fought? Or do you only exemp down with your HO'd blaster? Your TA/A do much PvPing? Yeah...that's what I thought.

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Actually a lot of stalkers do not use AS first on squishies

[/ QUOTE ] Really? And how much PvP'ing do you do? Last night Warburg...AS was 1-shotting my TA/A..by Ninja Blade no less. Why would you open with anything other than AS if it one-shot's a squishie? Maybe because you don't know how to PvP?

I've had squihies 1-shot in every zone. When I play my /SR and watch them take out the blasters and defenders...they open with AS..nine times out of ten. The fact is...there are certain targts like Hurricane defenders that prevent you from ASing. Ice toons put down Ice Slick, Hot feet, etc that stop you from using AS...but in the absence of those things...it's AS.

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The original statement was "...on squishies."

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah...and my counter was that she didn't consitute the majority of stalkers...moving on.

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AS is used more often on the opening strike, but usually because they are (usually) less mobile

[/ QUOTE ] Well, maybe you shoulde spend more time PvPing...my defender and my scrapper were repeatedly AS'd in Warburg despite employing crack bunny tecqnique. Everyone has to stop at some point to fire an attack. Remember...the point in PvP Arcana? To fight? Unlike you, who's primary purpose in Warbug was to milk the PvP missions, most of us are there to fight. And god forbid some MM shows up with Tar Patch which stops you from jumping...

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Not safe.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, maybe if you actually PvP'd. There's an easy way to see who's in the zone...why don't you do some stats checking for me. Take an inventory and let me know what you come up with across all zones. Siren's is one zone uniquely attractive to blappers because of the bounty. As long as you can kill your target, it doesn't matter if you survive the exposure.

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as tallied by online voting at cohtroll dot com.

[/ QUOTE ] If I'm a troll, that makes you an ogre. The fact is, Arcana, I'm here as someone who actually PvP's.

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I dont even open with AS on squishies!

[/ QUOTE ]Right..right...and you constitute the tactics used by the vast majority of stalkers? No...no you don't.

The vast majorityof stalkers open with AS. EM's use ET or Bone Smasher for the disorient on squishies...but on scrappers and tanks...AS.

It's a safe bet that the majority of PvP'ers on the hero side are scrappers.

If you want to argue that AS gets "activated" the fewest number of times...or actually "hits" the fewest number of times...then I'll chalk it up to typical pro-stalker logic arguing nonsense: arguing something completely immaterial to the issue.

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kin buffs, kin debuffs, kin have an awesome melee range heal, kin usually have lots of teamates...

Kin is a popular girl O.o

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Kin has to roll a to-hit check in PvP where the BTH is 50%. Kin's heal is note "melee" it's target based. Your target has to "be" in melee for you to heal your self....provided you hit.

Kin has no acc debuff. It's best defense is Siphon Speed....cuz siphon power ain't doing a whole lot.

Let's not misrepresent the reality okay?

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. As it is its the least used attack for most Stalkers.

[/ QUOTE ] That's just ridiculous. It is the MOST used attack in PvP. The first thing ANY stalker tries do is AS someone. I'm /SR...teamed, I see exactly what happens.

Sorry...you've lost all credibility.