Malrathad

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not that we're right because we agree.

we're right because we're aware of the legitimate counters.

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And I feel the number legtimate counters, combined with what the power did when uncountered, resulted in a power that wasn't balanced in compared to the vast majority of other powers in the game. Something can have counters and still be unbalanced, particularly if the effect is as severe as Hurricane's effect was if it were to go UNcountered.

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we've seen them work enough times to know that they do work...unlike many of the people supporting this nerf.

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I've seen and delt with Hurricane quite a bit. I know your counters work, but in my eyes that's simply not sufficient given how potent it was. Ultimately no amount of repeating, "But there were counters," necessitates that it was balanced. People usually complain for a reason when they do, and things that are much complained about often ARE complained about correctly. It pleases the ego to stand in the face of such complaints and say, "Pfah, I know how to counter such things, you're just not GOOD enough, the game is fine!" That's why so many DO it, after all. Game balance goes beyond simply the inclusion of counters, though. Fun factor is important: being able to spam holds to hold someone forever isn't FUN, even if it's not unbalanced in well prepared team PvP. Thus supression. Being able to kill someone in one shot isn't particularly horrifying in well prepared team PvP, but it isn't FUN, thus the one shot fix. And being repelled against a wall indefinitely (while having your Accuracy and Range debuffed, and possibly knockback effects on top of it) isn't fun, thus this. Proper game balance is clearly intended to involve a fun factor that goes beyond YOUR particular fun. I'm sorry that bothers you guys so.

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i submit that if you have a consensus among your best-informed pvp population that a power is or is not overpowered, that is some pretty strong evidence.

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I feel evidence and consensus never, ever overlap. Evidence is in the fact, not in what people feel about those facts. This is particularly true in light of the fact that the people you are talking about aren't exactly representative of the vast majority of players, having taken PvP to an extreme most people don't want to. Given this game is a product meant to bring about enjoyment, that fact needs to be taken into account also.

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i would weigh this strongly against the opinions of casual pvpers who limit their pvp involvement to PUGs in Siren's Call.

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And that's why I'm very skeptical of your opinion; ultimately you simply don't care about the majority of players and how the game affects them. I do.

To Psypunk (sp?): Your post was pretty hostile within the first sentence or two, so please forgive me for not reading it, much less replying to any potentially very good points you may or may not have made. I'm here for interesting discussion, not to be berated by people angry over a game or what has been said about a game. Sorry.

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cause without the repel and knockdown any person with a bit of intelligence would move out of freezing rain....


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If you've got someone locked in place, you don't need the debuff. It's almost like a Catch 22! Except, you know, the debuff lingers, so it's not. Unless what you're after is Freezing Rain's less than incredible damage output; I guess the stream of 1s could give me a seizure or something.

As an aside, didn't I all ready say the set needed other buffs? If you think Freezing Rain is too crappy to use without being able to permanently pin people in it for some reason, maybe it should be improved. I'd have no problem with that, hell make it follow people around for all I care, rainstorms move.

It's still a ranged power, though, even if you want to argue it's a BAD ranged power. I've had stormers drop them on me from at range, even if you don't use it that way.

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green insperations will give me health back while BF's will give you resist to repel. there's your balance

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If I absolutely HAD to respond to SOMETHING in the post you said this in response to, I'd probably have picked the same single line, joke though it was. Not much else you could reasonably say to the rest, in light of it's totally reasonable, fair tone and content.

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its close range combat cause you have to pick one spot to do it...

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That's not what close ranged means!

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you can add range to snowstorm and its not really that big of a range on it.

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It was enough for my character to pull at range with it, which is more than I can say of ACTUAL close ranged powers, such as those my Stalker has.

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you dont sit back and hit people across the map

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True, but because of Hurricane, not because of range limitations on other powers. Whether a power is short or long ranged is about it's LIMITATIONS, not what YOU as an individual choose to do with it. If Hurricane didn't exist, you wouldn't be running up next to me to drop a Freezing Rain or Snowstorm on me, you'd do it from as far away as reasonably possible, which is a considerable distance.

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well based on your arguements you basing everything on people who dont base their builds on planning being pinned, by not having TP self, or phase or repel resist.


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I'm basing everything on a combination of the average PvPer, and a comparrison between Hurricane and other comparable powers.

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same arguement could be made for any attack power, my blaster has no heal so when people hit me i cant get my health back unless i grab aid self which is a possibility.


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Green inspirations? 50 Influence a piece? Can't stop at just one?

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if you dont like being pinned in corners then get a power to stop it.

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I did. Fortunately PvP balance doesn't begin and end at me. Hell, I've got a Mind Dominator (in fact he's my main: Mal'rathad is my primary character, Mind Dominator), if Telekinesis can't pin people he's going to be taking a serious hit too. I'm still okay with this line of changes.

But gasp, that means I'm okay with a change that hurts one of my characters! It's almost as if I'm interested in game balance for overall PvP and the average player, rather than what lengths somewhat obsessive players like myself or even TRULY obsessive players like "the most experienced Stormer ever," are willing or able to go to. I know that's hard to hear, but I'm sure I'll keep getting insulted anyway because I dared to go against the Consensus.

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toggle debuff vs ranged debuff is a big difference.

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True, but the difference has nothing to do with the fact that you can activate both at range. One could disintegrate you instantly, the other could make your screen turn slightly purple, they'd be hugely different, but they're still both ranged effects, and no amount of argument changes that. I can click Snowstorm and inflict it on you at range. I can click freezing rain, move the aiming reticule away from myself, and cast it on an area at range. They're ranged effects. That's what a ranged effect IS; the fact that they differ in OTHER ways is irrelevent.

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the fact of the matter is that there is something of a consensu among informed people who routinely pvp that hurricane was not overpowered because of the number of available counters.

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Independent of whether or not that group IS correct, consensus doesn't equate with correctness. Historically groups have come to form a consensus incorrectly quite often.

I've seen arguments from this group, and I haven't found myself moved by them so far. The fact that there's a consensus within that group doesn't add persuasive force to it. It's clear you and that group disagree with me, and I'm fine with that, but saying, "We're right because we agree," isn't persuasive, particularly since I can think of psychological reasons why such conclusions would be reached.

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1. storm is pretty much a close range set. why do you think stormies pinned people against things.

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Because Hurricane could easily pin things so your buddies could kill them while leaving them totally unable to fight back. If by "Storm is a close ranged set" you mean "Hurricane is a closer ranged power," then yes, I agree. A Stormer doesn't have to pin you in the corner to use Snowstorm on you though; in fact, after you're pinned, Snowstorm on you would mostly be wasted endurance anyway. Same goes for the majority of the rest of the set's powers; Stormers pinned because pinning people is effective, not because they needed to for the rest of the set.

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why are all of storms debuff immobile besides snowstorm which is just a slow toggle which is easily negated for movement by jumping.

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Unless your team sucks, after you've pinned someone you don't NEED to debuff them, because your Blappers and/or Scrappers will kill them in moments. Unless your team is really bad at team work I guess.

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he's trying to state that too many people are calling for nerfs in this game cause they dont want to try and figure out how to beat sets

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Maybe some are, I don't care about that, because I'm not one of them, and it's not a very interesting topic of discussion.

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storm is not toto hard if you actually use your head, and if you have a good team storm is easy to take out, its a big target.

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If you have a good team anything is easy to take out other than another good team. I've never asserted Hurricane was a problem in competent team PvP, but the majority of the game's PvP isn't competent team PvP. Stop saying [censored] you to a huge portion of the player base just because they want to PvP in a casual way and still have fun.

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Do you not find it at all odd that a self admitted EM/Regen Stalker - clearly the PvP easy button FoTY- is arguing for nerfs to other Ats and combos?

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I argue for nerfs to myself too. Because I argue from a position of game balance rather than "benefitting myself" (such as certain other Stormers on this thread, though I think Stormbringer was fairly academically honest and a pleasure to discuss with), I'm totally comfortable speaking about what I feel would be wise to change about the game.

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Something about someone sporting this combination supporting an alteration that makes a MUCH weaker powerset rather succeptible to his quick kills just strikes me as a bit asinine.

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Good thing I also recognized at least once in this thread that Hurricane's weakning left Storm Summoning too vulnerable and spoke in favor of other buffs to help make them more survivable in a more reasonable way then, isn't it? But you ignored that, because it wouldn't mesh well with your insult.

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- Lightning storm is immobile, and I don't know where you ever got the idea of the cloud following it's master.

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I don't know honestly, sorry for the mistake.

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Yes I've said storm powers are close range powers.

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And most of them aren't. There's nothing more to discuss about that, as I said. You could have 8 Storm Summoners, but that still doesn't stop Snowstorm from being cast on me from range, for example.

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Yes, toggle debuff being different from range debuff.


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True, but that doesn't change the fact that both can be activated at range. Thus, the difference is totally irrelevent.

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If you gave me a choice between snow storm or infrigidate, I'd pick infrigidate in a heartheat, because range debuff is better than toggle anyday

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I don't disagree, but they're still both ranged. You can just escape from the toggle by EXCEEDING it's range. That doesn't make it NOT ranged, it just means the range isn't totally unlimited. No amount of rubbish is going to change that simple fact; you can say all you want one is better than another, I don't disagree, but neither is a "close ranged power," no matter how much worse they are than OTHER ranged powers.

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Freezing rain is more of a ground patch than anything...

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Yes, a ground patch that you can cast at range. You can keep trying to reclassify these powers all you want, I don't care about your classifications, because they're irrelevent. Snowstorm is a toggle, Freezing Rain is a ground patch, both are usable at range, and thus aren't close ranged powers. It's simple, it's clear, and it's not up for argument.

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i highly doubt you wouldn't say anything if the devs gutted integration to make it only work 1/4 of the time.

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Of course I'd say something. Specifically, I'd want to know why they did it; what was their goal? Why not other sets too, assuming ONLY mine got changed? That doesn't change the fact that I could still be successful in PvP without it.

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Also let's talk about hide working 1/4 of the time. If people could see you, you still get a critical as long as your status is "hidden".

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If people can see me, I become target number one far more often than you'd think. It's pretty often that as I maneuver in for a kill someone attacks me, and there goes hide's critical. So I've got half the power that doesn't work AT ALL against competent opposition (the important part, mind you, because that's the part that'd let me get off an Assassin Strike without being interrupted - going unseen), and the other, less important half works dependent on how slothful they are or if I jump them when they're on someone else.

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So technically people having the perception to spot you is not nearly as bad as hide just not working or not having it.

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And Hurricane working like it does now is not nearly as bad as it just not working or not having it. I still get gusted by it, I still get debuffed by it, it just takes a bit more coordination from the Stormer. So they're more similar than you'd like to believe, though you'd never admit it, because you're not academically honest. Which is fine.

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to deny any set doesn't have any must have powers, then you are in denial once again.

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By definition, someone who denies something is in denial, you master of language you.

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There are sets out there that i guarantee if they are modeled for pvp, they will have all very similar picks.

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Not out of necessity, but out of efficiency. A power can be BETTER without being NECESSARY. Are you really SO immersed in the "elite PvP" mindset that having the absolute, invariably best setup is a necessity to you? I can see why, then, you're as upset you are over this game.

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The safe zone thing i threw out was just an example...

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A very accurate example. In fact, I'd go as far as to call it a "description." It's getting a bit boring going over that again and again, isn't it?

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one of the most experienced PVP stormers

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Pro tip: you can cast Snowstorm on things at range.


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I feel I've been generous actually sharing my wisdom with you, you should be thankful

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I completely agree with your wisdom: Hurricane was a melee safe zone. I'm also thankful for you teaching me how Lightning Storm is an immobile ranged-attacker rather than a mobile ranged-attacker. The rest left me feeling a bit embarassed for you; I can only assume your ego forces you to claim things you don't really believe. Which is fine.

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Silly example, but remember this is a business. Do they want to cater to a group of 30 big-time PVPers or the 100's of 10-15 year olds that give up easily?

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Well whichever they pick, I can't say it's likely they're going to cater to individuals who start throwing out insults and tantrums when make changes to the game. You've made insulting little nits in quite a few threads like this, blatantly assuming anyone who feels differently than you:

-Must be a child.
-Must be unskilled.
-Must have never succeeded.
-Cares nothing about game balance.

And those assumptions aren't founded. Ever think that maybe you're just WRONG about what's reasonably balanced? Ever think people can take an intellectual stance opposite to yours without being whiny children? I know it may be hard for you to see, but what you find acceptable isn't the universal and sole balancing feature in this game, particularly when what you find acceptable and reasonable is coming from the position of:

Krole, Level 50 Ill/Storm

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LOL since when did lightning storm follow people around?

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If it's actually totally, 100% immobile under all circumstances, then I misspoke. I thought it followed the Stormer around, I can't say I've seen it used that much. We both know it's ranged though, as it literally starts lobbing off ranged attacks.

You can insult me all you like, doesn't change the fact that you've asserted Storm powers are all "close range" when we both know they aren't.

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Me being the person who knows what he's talking about, and you obviously not knowing even the basic mechanics of the set.

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Basic mechanics like being able to cast Snowstorm on people at range? Basic mechanics like being able to actually MOVE the aiming reticule for Freezing Rain to cast it at range?

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Technically snowstorm isn't a targeted range power.


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You target someone, someone who is at range, and click it. Then it activates. That's what a ranged power IS, no amount of attempting to rubbish your way around it changes that. Yes, if someone runs QUITE far away from you it turns off, but ranged doesn't entail UNLIMITED RANGE.

You're being disingenous. In fact, you're being ridiculous to be honest, in addition to being insulting. You can reassert "all Storm powers are close ranged" all you like, you can try to rubbish weird defintions of what a ranged power is to exclude Snowstorm and it's lot, but you're wasting your time. I'm not repeating myself on the matter again. We all know they aren't.

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So you're not denying that your powerset wouldn't be screwed if integration only protected you against mezzes and knockdowns 1/4 of the time?

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Yes, I'm denying that. It'd mean I would have to bring break frees along (and I'd probably pack Strength of Wills too for certain situations), but if Blasters can cope with that, so could I. Integration is a convenience, not a necessity -- Blasters prove that. Sure it would make things a bit harder or more annoying, but I'd still very likely do quite well, because I have the reflexes to use inspirations if I need to.

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hell maybe if hide only worked 1/4 of the time too.


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Against my best opposition Hide doesn't work at all, because they have stacked perception powers. So again, pretty bad example on your part, given I operate under the assumption everyone CAN see me, because it's usually true!

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Every set has their must have powers, don't even deny that.

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Then what's my must have power? I kill people without using Assassin Strike. I kill people without using Energy Transfer. Integration can be covered by break frees and strength of wills. Hide doesn't keep me unseen against good opposition, it's all ready totally unreliable in that regard. What individual power MUST I have here? I mean you could take away like 3 or 4 of my powers and screw me, but any one I can live without pretty easily.

No, I don't have any individual desparately needed power like Hurricane. I don't think MOST sets do.

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If you don't agree then see how much success you have without using integration or hide

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Plenty without hide all ready; I often even fight duels without it if my foe can't see past it to make it fair for them. Integration I haven't fought without much to be honest, but I clearly COULD, I'd just need to do what Blappers all ready do, what Defenders all ready do, etc.

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So you're saying something that was a virtual safe zone would imply that it wasn't counterable...

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If something was a melee safe zone, which is the term you used and I agreed to, no, it wouldn't imply it was impossible to counter in general. The reason why is so obvious I don't think I have to spell it out.

Could you please start thinking some of these arguments out before posting them? I'm trying to be fair and keep responding to your points, but a lot of the things you're saying are just SILLY to be honest. Storm powers being "all close range," melee safe zone implying "impossibility to counter," it's silly, it's childish, and you clearly can't ACTUALLY believe these things. Doesn't academic honesty mean anything to you?

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I have to back Rystorm on her assessment of Storm powers. Yes, it may not be easily understood but all I can tell you, and maybe other Stormers too, is that when I played PvE, I was much more devastating on the indoor mishes. Outside, things just get too spread out and too chaotic.

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I bolded the line of text that makes your point diverge from hers. Her point is "Storm powers are all close ranged," your point is "In PvE (i.e. the place most things can and will be knocked back), Stormers are most effective when their many knockback effects have something to bounce the enemies into."

I agree with your assertion, I don't agree with hers. I've seen lightning bolt shoot too far, seen Snowstorm and Freezing Rain cast too far away, seen Tornado chase my Dominator too far to accept her "close ranged" definition. In line with her saying I should play a Stormer, maybe she needs to play a melee class and see what close ranged actually MEANS in this game.

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If I'm understanding correctly, this is where Rystorm is coming from not just the strict definition of ranged vs melee.

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Given most people in PvP have knockback protection, I don't think the very valid point you're making is the point she's trying to make, because if Storm wasn't knocking everything back being indoors to avoid the chaos is a much less important feature. She made the assertion "all the powers are close ranged," which can really only be understood in one sense: you need to be at close range to hit things with them. And that's false. If she wants to assert indoors Stormers are more effective, fine, but that's an entirely different point.

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Team
Inspirations
Tactics
Temp Powers

Any of these or any combination of them will help overcome Hurricane.

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Your point has been discussed and responded to in this thread all ready. If you search out such posts, you will have my response.

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-Oxygen Boost: a heal. well ok, let's call this a ranged ability for the sake of argument
-Snowstorm: toggle debuff, can be easily broken by anyone with SJ
-Freezing Rain: location AoE. The mechanics of this is nothing like a targeted ranged attack. good luck hitting any leap froggers with this. Freezing rain often times is often to shield yourself with it to debuff those who are on a collision course with you
-Tornado: you even put tornado here? yeah, it doesn't go farther than like 20 feet of the master, lol. A summon power, hardly what I'd call long range
-Lightning Storm: summon once again. easily negated by simply moving away from it. it's not like i can shoot someone with lightning storm, so no this is not a 'ranged attack'. Like tornado this power is best used in close quarters.

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I don't agree with any of your counter-rationales except for Oxygen Boost, which you agreed with me upon. If a storm cloud following you around executing RANGED lightning attacks against your foes is a "close ranged" power to you, our definitions of what constitute close range and long range attacks are irreconcilable. You can assert I know nothing about the set, but I don't think anyone really believes SNOWSTORM is close ranged. Sure you can cancel it with super jump, but that has precisely zero to do with the fact that you don't have to be standing right next to them to activate it in the first place (Hell, I used to pull with it on my Earth/Storm, although I never played him high enough to start PvPing with him, nor had any intention to do so, he was a concept character -- not easy to pull with a "close ranged" power); excuses and justifications aren't becoming. None of these powers are "close ranged" under any reasonable, rational definition.

Skipping a fairly large chunk of text that doesn't warrant reply here. I'm sorry, because I know it bothers you, but it's mostly just ranting and/or not particularly logical. I don't say that to insult, simply to explain.

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don't even give me that crap. you know as well as any other, every set for any AT has a signature type power.


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Not really, no. In fact, the vast majority don't. The closest this comes to true in any other set is Assassin Strike, and honestly I feel it's the same problem for non-energy/spines Stalkers; all your eggs in one basket. You're just wrong in your assertion here, the vast majority of powersets DO NOT have one really good power they obsess over to the exclusion of the rest.

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Sure, if you think hurricane is some kind of god mode ...

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I don't think it's some kind of god mode, and I never said or even intimated it was. You putting words in my mouth and then arguing against them is a poor form of argumentation, RyStorm.

I simply agreed with you that Hurricane DID largely amount to a melee safe zone. It wasn't IMPOSSIBLE to overcome, and in fact with the right team setup it could be overcome reliably. That's not god mode, but fortunately there's an area BETWEEN god mode and a balanced power, and Hurricane fell into that middle region. Not everything is some ridiculous extreme; it doesn't have to be easy mode OR hard mode, there's normal, and there's slightly too easy, and slightly too hard, and so forth.

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Well respond to the statement going in the same direction as I'm going, don't try to switch it around like I'm implying something else.

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I respond to what you SAY, RyStorm. If you're THINKING something else, it's unfortunately the case I'm not a master psychic. Say what you mean or expect to be misunderstood, if that's really the case.

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ok so counter to melee and blappers could easily be other things. but let's see how storm is designed. all of it's powers are close range...

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All of Storm's powers are close ranged?

-Oxygen Boost: ranged.
-Snowstorm: ranged.
-Freezing Rain: ranged.
-Tornado: ranged (and it chases people around!)
-Lightning Storm: ranged (but random).

I'll count Gale as close ranged just because I don't KNOW the range off the top of my head. So Gale, Hurricane, Steamy Mist, and Thunderclap are close ranged. That's hardly all of them, in fact it's not even most of them. What constitutes a long ranged power in your mind, such that Storm's attacks are all close ranged? Do you want sniper range on Freezing Rain or something? I'm not even attacking you, I'm just confused, because last I saw these things weren't even close to melee ranged powers.

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Ask any stormer how long they would survive in close quarters against an /nrg or /elec blapper?

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Ask any Dominator the same thing. This is hardly an issue unique to Storm Summoners, surely a more global fix makes more sense.

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I mentioned every single archetype available to the villains, and yes they have powersets that can easily neutralize a stormer.

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If it's so easy, who cares how good or bad Hurricane is? It's casually neutralized, and thus doesn't even enter into play. How can you be SO upset about Hurricane being changed -- moreover, h ow can it be the CORNERSTONE of your survivability and defense -- if it's so easily and completely neutralizable?

Fact is, we both know it's not quite that simple, which is why it WAS such an important part of the Storm set to you; if it was so casually brushed aside as you describe, you'd hardly miss it, for the same reason I'm not exactly worried about my Mind Dominator's Mass Hypnosis power being nerfed for PvP. That fact doesn't bear further discussion, it's a clear and obvious truth in my eyes Hurricane was different in that regard. If you disagree, that's fine.

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It's not really a safe zone, and perhaps that was a bad way to describe it.

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No, I'd say it was an excellent way to describe it. You spoke truthfully and directly from the vantage-point of someone who has not one, but two Storm Summoning characters in their signature. You called it a safe zone because you recognized from quite a bit of experience that's what it essentially amounted to for the most part; sure, a particularly competent melee player could wheedle out an occasional attack, but you're good enough to keep it together despite that, and overall the hurricane area was very, very safe from melee as a result.

Backpedalling on that terminology now because it doesn't suit your case, while understandable, isn't convincing. I won't press that issue further, because I don't want to come off as being hostile about it, but I think you put it quite correctly the first time, with your so put simple terms.

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I also like how you quote fragments of my posts and take them in a whole different direction. if you're gonna quote what i say, take the whole statement

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I quote what I am responding to RyStorm, while refraining from quoting what I feel warrants no response. I do this in an effort to keep my posts shorter and more readable, while at the same time clearly highlighting what I am responding to. I'm sorry it bothers you; if my posting style irritates you, I'd rather abstain than piss you off. Thanks for the conversation.

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I don't feel ANY build should be able to shut down any other reasonable PvP build - ever.

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Once again, every time I see someone post this so called complete AT balance view as justification...

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I'm not justifying anything, I'm making a general statement on what I'd like to see. I'm not really in a position to justify a change to City of Heroes' code, given I have precisely zero input into what gets changed and why.

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The game is all about tactics and counters.

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And the tactics and counters required for the old Hurricane were abnormally specific when compared to the tactics and counters required for almost everything else. If you want the game to require more precise tactics and more specific counters, I'm all for it, so long as it's not JUST Hurricane. But you seemed to be happy with it being JUST Hurricane in that regard, and I don't agree with that.

I'm okay with just disagreeing on that matter. I'm not happy with MOST Archetypes being very, very general in what it takes to counter them, and one or two being substantially more specific. You seem to like it. That's fine.

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What sort of nonsense. Nonsense such as viable counters? Nonsense such as maybe bringing some teammates to help stop this stormer that is most likely teamed?

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Nonsense such as needing pretty specific team mates. Against almost any other powerset, sure I'd need team mates at times, but almost any SORT of team mate would do. That's much, much less true of Hurricane, and that's what I felt was nonsense.

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The repel and melee safe zone...

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Mobile safe zones you can fire from shouldn't exist. I don't agree with the existence of "safe zones" The sheer fact you'd CALL it that just reinforces my point. You're free to disagree, but I've got nothing further to say on the existence of mobile safe zones created by powers. I don't feel speaking about them strengthens your case.

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but maybe you're not suggesting anything of the sort. maybe you've tried diversifying your team or varying your power selections and/or slotting. maybe you've tried temp powers and yellows. i dunno. perhaps, if they have the time and are so inclinced, the devs could do some meaningful research into the relative uberosity of storm summoners in the arena vs. stalkers or scrappers or blasters. maybe they would find they're overpowered. but i really don't think so.

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I've tried these things and succeeded, but I also feel I'm an above average player in terms of reflexes, capability, and computer processing speed. I am not saying, nor have ever said, Hurricane was an obstacle that could not be overcome. I just didn't feel like the specifics it took to overcome it's repel feature were in line with any other power in the game. It was an odd ball in my eyes, and not in a good way. If there were many more powers that required similar specifics to reasonably and reliably combat, I may have felt differently.

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rather than a nerf to hurricane, i'd like to see certain underperforming sets buffed to help keep pvp competitive at the early levels.

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I happily admit an alternative to weakening Hurricane could be to add more powers LIKE it (not necessarily in form, but in power and effectiveness) to a variety of underperforming sets. My issue with Hurricane was always that it was out of line with the other powers in the game; if many other powers were similar in scope, it would fit in better. Such things might also help to balance out Dominators a bit. I don't think, however, such an approach would leave Storm Summoners in a very nice position in Recluse's Victory, where almost everyone is going to be ranged capable. That would definitely need some attention, because although the old Hurricane is damn strong in Siren's Call, it's wouldn't be (or won't be, if it's reinstated for some reason) in Recluse's Victory, and I don't feel the other Storm powers are sufficient.

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--to those of us that have it, hurricane is our primary defense against the ridiculous amount of damage being kicked out by other ATs. without it, we are truly sitting ducks.


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Which is why I'm for Storm's other powers being improved to help give you other lines of defense, and against more than melee damage. I don't want Stormers to be useless, sitting ducks. I want them to be viable contestants on the field. That's not going to come from one really good power and a lots of so-so ones though.

Stormers also aren't the only characters who have this problem, and I hope a solution can be come up for the others as well. Defenders and Dominators in particular really get the shaft in many ways, and that's not conducive to fun play.

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hopefully castle et al can come up with a system that allows the hurricane to protect the user in pvp and prevents any abuse in base raids. i just don't think the current fix is it.

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I'd be happy with anything that didn't demand certain character builds had to go to pretty extreme lengths simply to meaningfully affect them. I'd be just as happy with some sort of repel supression for instance, to quote something I'd seen in the thread previous.

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Why do people keep acting like the Stormers are NPCs with no awareness or ability to use tactics of their own? They're not helpless, they're presumably intelligent players reacting to what's around them.

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Why do people keep acting like they have to stay huddled and all get hit by hurricane at the same time?

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I don't know. I'm not acting like that.

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Why do people feel that just because they rolled an EM stalker, that they should have the right to kill anything with their easy button?

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I don't know, I'm not acting like that.

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So 1 build managed to shut yours down...

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I don't feel ANY build should be able to shut down any other reasonable PvP build - ever. You feel otherwise, that's your choice. It's hardly like I'm uniquely and totally against Hurricane here; I'm just as against the ridiculous amounts of damage put out in PvP, capable of dropping people in split seconds, because it literally does shut down other types of builds to a large extent. I literally want PvP damage scaled down at least moderately specifically to make it so no one DOES die in 2 seconds to a Stalker, Blaster, or Scrapper. But you assume because I play a Stalker I'm only FOR changes that help Stalkers and AGAINST changes that don't.

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there is a good selection of corrupters, dominators, masterminds, hell, even stalker and brute builds that can give a stormer a bad day.

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Yes, that's what I did. Now I don't have to resort to that sort of nonsense, and there's one less inequity. Hopefully more inequities will be resolved.

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pretty soon with all these nerfs to make debuffs/repels ineffective, all we are going to be seeing soon is nothing but buff and damage builds.

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See, I'm not FOR the debuff nerfs. You attack me, but I don't think the debuff weakening IS a good thing. My issue was with Hurricane's incredible repel, and that was it. If you're just speaking in general, fine, but if you're speaking to me specifically understand that if anything I think debuffs in general should be a bit stronger. Debuffs like Snowstorm and Freezing Rain, for example. Something needed to be done about Hurricane's repel, though, and it was.

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It's been going in that direction for quite some time, and all the changes the devs are making, it's only encouraging that even further.

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Hurricane's repel was an issue entirely on it's own. If you've got a problem with the general way the game is developing, there's no reason to take a hostile tone with me about it. My support for one ch ange doesn't entail my support for the other changes you take issue with; I'm with you on those.

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As long as the Stomie was on the ground you could joust and stun them with Super Speed. The latest nerf has just made it easier.

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Hmm, had a friend with a MA scrapper try that in the arena for 5 minutes or so (prior to the recent changes); he only got close enough to trigger a queued up attack a few times, and all but one whiffed because of the to hit debuff. If one of the successful jousts had happened to be on an attack where his buildup was going, maybe it would have hit, but thats still a long shot.

Is your superspeed slotted up or something?

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Did he have focused acc?

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That's not something Villains get in any case. So this Scrapper was doing as well as a Brute or Stalker could hope to do in that situation, making his example pretty valid.

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You know, you could joust and stun a Stormie even before the latest nerf...

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Not reliably.

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As long as the Stomie was on the ground you could joust and stun them with Super Speed. The latest nerf has just made it easier.

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If they're on the ground and just sitting around, sure. That's a pretty big IF though, and that's part of the issue. Why do people keep acting like the Stormers are NPCs with no awareness or ability to use tactics of their own? They're not helpless, they're presumably intelligent players reacting to what's around them.

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You'll be suprised what 1 web grenade can do.

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If we're bringing temporary powers into play (and given we're talking about a Stalker here, we are), there's nothing stopping the Stormer from having a breakfree Discipline running to stop the stun and a heal inspiration or two to counter the damage, making your efforts amount to nothing. Or for that matter just hyper phasing for a short bit while webbed, something I've found to be quite effective. And all this assumes the Stormer hadn't been constantly hugging you with the Hurricane in the first place, in which case your all ready low base accuracy web grenade isn't hitting, if you can even get in range for it. Web grenade ultimately amounts to a "hahaha, here I come!" for the Stormer, and if they're prepared and capable, that's not what you want.

As I said, the tactic is for less experienced, less competent Stormers, because good, well prepared ones aren't going to get shut down by it. Hurricane's best counters were always of the ranged variety, because although there WERE melee recourses, they were of the variety that good Stormers could avoid pretty effectively, and evidently the development team wasn't happy with that.

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*shrugs* I just wait till I see the empath hit their auras (Recovery and Healing) then TP in for the kill.

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At this point the tactic is getting pretty convoluted and WAY away from the sort of reliability that is required to really say, "Psh, just do this!" as you seemed to be saying.

I'm not implying or asserting that it's impossible to you as you described. I've done it, heck I've done it without teleport at all. BUT, it takes the Stormer actively screwing up for it to work, even if that screw up is standing in one place too long for auras (which you don't need to remain immobile long for at all), and that's assuming you're somehow in perfect awareness mode, completely ready to activate this pattern of powers the split second you see an Empath aura go off, to use your example. That's clearly not the sort of thing the Developers want to demand of their playerbase, as is evinced by changes like this.

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Granted, on Virtue, we see a lot more team-based PvP, a lot more of what i think the Devs actually had in mind initially. And sure, we're one server and I know that. But it'd be a shame to lose it anyway. It'd be keen if we could somehow instead get incentives beyond "better experience" to promote team PvP play.

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I empathize with your view completely.

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Another point I neglected in my first post, is that the Call is a relatively low-level zone, and the builds thee are immature, whether by natural level or EX/MAing. I weep for the nerfed 'cane when it hits Warburg where the really heavy melee damage comes into play, or worse, when Recluse's Victory hits, where even *before* the nerfage, most everyone worth their salt'll have a couple decent ranged attacks from patron pools, and maybe a hold or a pet to help them out.

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This is a good point, and actually one of the motivators behind me wanting Hurricane to be a bit weaker and the other powers in the set to be strengthened for a less "eggs in one basket" feel. When almost everyone DOES have ranged attacks, Hurricane -- even the old one -- not going to be as much an advantage. It would be much better for Stormers to have a more varied set of tools that were actually ALL something I'd dread seeing on the battlefield to some extent when that happens. Tornado, Snowstorm, Freezing Rain, none of these things particularly bother me, no matter what type of character I'm playing. They should, and Hurricane taking a step down in terms of power leaves room for them to take a step up I think, hopefully for the betterment of the set in PvP and maybe even PvE (hopefully in spite of the fact that it's being powered up in PvE again).