M_I_Abrahms

So, when are we invading China?

So, this is a religious crusade for you? Then that explains the complete lack of logic or reason.

If there's no law against it, it's not a crime.

So in other words you can have any government you want, as long as it's American government.

Doesn't even enter into it. Or do you regularly act based on what spirits from another world tell you?

Somehow I doubt there's any law on the Utopian books against the Seers.

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Actually, your actions have proven that they don't. Because they've already seen if they don't govern themselves the way you want them to, you'll just come in, smash everything up, and upend their lives again.

And you've still not commented on the two big points on these 'disappearances'.

1) You have no proof. The only thing you have is a rumor started by Anarchists. I have no doubt that we have the same rumors in Paragon. How many times have meta-humans gone missing in the various arcs? I can almost guarantee that there are people that claim that at least some of these are the result of government plot. Hell, after seeing how eager you are to destroy a world based on a rumor it wouldn't surprise me to hear OUR criminal groups try to start a couple of these just to get you on their side.

2) If we get proof, we still need numbers. There's one thing you can NOT deny: Their method of crime fighting works. Ours doesn't. Heck we joke about how much of a revolving door the Zig is. The big question is: Is the Utopian government killing more people than criminals do here?

Actually, this right here is why I ask. I went back to the Splasher site and he pretty much states that the program doesn't work with Vista or Windows 7.

Something tells me there's not going to be much of Utopia's government left once you're done telling them what laws are 'evil'.

Let me guess, live free or die? You do realize that only works when the people don't LIKE their government, right?

Now you're talking invasion.

The more we talk about this, the more you resemble Tyrant. Statesman may be the biological twin of Emperor Cole, but you truly are his intellectual mirror.

Tyrant invaded this world because he saw a society without law, or if there were laws, then there was no one to enforce them. He invaded our lands to bring down our government and replace it with his own. You want to invade because you see a world without freedom, or at least not the same freedoms we have here. You want to invade their city to bring down their government and replace it with our own.

You both will ignore everything except your own very narrow definition of how the world 'should' work. Nothing matters but your own definition of what is evil. And should someone disagree, then all thunder shall rain down upon them. The only difference is he prefers to keep his people safe, and you want to make them free. Whether they want it or not.

Did I think he was right in his actions? No, and I fight him every time he makes his attempts. Do I think you are right in yours? Again, no. But here, I have to wait and hope that we as Heroes don't have the opportunity to engage in Operation: Eden Storm.

Ah but in this case Emperor Cole is the government of Utopia, not to mention the planet. Taking him and his cronies into custody would be like removing the entire presidential succession, and all of Congress to boot. The closest thing to organization left would be whatever the Praetorian Family was called. Not to mention that whole nature abhors a vacuum. Take Tyrant out and a hundred little dictators will do every thing in their power to carve out a piece of Praetoria.

It would be like when the U.S.S.R. dissolved, but with a lot more bloodshed.

Not to mention that there's still the fact that you and I, as Heroes still represent the "Lawless wilderness" to most of the people of that dimension. We're still fighting a war on Paragon soil against dozens of criminal elements including now four separate illegal militias. The Praetors already won this war, and a couple generation ago to boot. To them you, me and all of Paragon stand for the idea that Peace is Evil. You have to understand that if you work with the Resistance YOU ARE A TERRORIST!

Alright, I'll give you the point here. I'm sure there won't be any disappearances once Tyrant is tossed out, law (that is ALL law, not just the "bad" ones) is dissolved, and the wars have begun.

Of course, good luck convincing all and sundry that there's anything malevolent about the disappearances, or that they're even occurring at all. And how would you know about anything like this anyway, hm? You're from that lawless dimension after all, there's no end of the shady goings on there. Heck, if there have been any meta-humans going missing, I'll bet YOU kidnapped them, didn't you? POLICE!

Well, now I'm curious how you would convince the people of Utopia that having the freedom to be mugged in a city as war is better than the peace and prosperity that their security provides.

Honestly, there's a point where I agree with you on this one. On the other hand, for me too easy=boring, not fun as well. If I don't even have to be present to win the fight, then that's no good either. I enjoy a REASONABLE challenge.

OK, I had a good laugh at that one. Very funny.

Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing about you committing Theft, Arson, and Murder "For Great Justice!"

You mean the copy/paste of Peregrine's "Monster Island"? A zone with about as much 'content' as Boomtown?

This is exactly what I was talking about actually. This is the "if it's not my ideal of law enforcement, it's evil. Period."

Consider how very many people in Primal Earth are meta-human. Now consider now many MANY of those are criminals, compared to those that take up the cape. Now further consider that a great number of those claiming to be 'Hero' are as violent and disruptive as teh criminals. I'm speaking of the folks that gleefully use lethal force when disrupting muggings.

Remember, in all this we are still fighting Statesman, just one that decided that Freedom was too much of a risk against peace. And come July, we'll be on our way to prove his case.

And to him you're evil.

Or do you believe we should back the people that routinely break the laws that keep the peace, damage or destroy public property and threaten the lives of the innocent?

Now that's a statement I've been wanting to debate for a while. The way you portray yourself on these boards, it's almost as if you beling at Emperor Cole's side spouting the same "You had better behave, or else you will be sorry" propaganda he does.