LivingHellfire

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Repeatedly? I made my original post and two follow ups when people didn't seem to get it so I could further explain my position. Sooo...whatever. Like the rest of you, if it wasn't important to me, I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Also, I don't get why any of this matters to you Judas. You have admitted that you haven't played in a year and aren't likely to start again, so why do you care what happens with this game?

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What makes you think I didn't get it, Arwen? Do you think I'm stupid?

I know precisely what you're saying.

What do you want, Arwen? Do you want an apology? I addressed your concerns specifically on the first page, and now here we are 250 posts later and you're still on about it.

I respect your right to be offended at something I said. I do not, however, respect the idea that you have the right to not be offended.

You're my dear friend, Arwen, and you're entitled to post whatever you like on these forums, but don't think for a second that because i don't reply or because I don't address something you posted that somehow that means I don't get it.

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I have done all of the above except for #3. I'm not sure who I would call and what that would accomplish beyond what I've done.

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There is no one to call... not really. You'll get a front line tech or something, even if you can find the number, but there's no one to call.

That's the nice thing about running MMOs, there's no accountability.

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MrDead,

What do you think that we, as players, should do if we disagree with the service or treatment we have been getting from a game we play a monthly subscription for?

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Vote with your feet. Vote with your wallet. Call CS. Write the dev's mail. But yelling and ultimatums and threats, well, they just have the opposite effect and make people like me talk on the forums. You don't want that now do you?

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Nobody's saying "if you do this, then we'll leave."

What's being said is "They did that, so I'm leaving." Look around.

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They aren't. They don't and they can't.

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It's the business model that's worked for MMO's since the beginning. You can't treat your actual player base like adults and you can't trust them. Dev's know this. The producer knows this. The mods know this. QA knows this. The crappy decisions you all keep harping on about is your opinion of those decisions, which everybody doesn't share and clearly certainly not the dev's opinion of said decisions.

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What does trust have to do with communication? What does trust have to do with simply doing the thing that you said you'd do? If you're running any kind of business you're not going to trust every single customer, that's why most businesses have alarm systems and cameras set up.

There's a difference between trusting your customer and simply keeping him informed of whatever changes/fixes/alterations you're making to a product that he/she's purchasing. There's a difference between trusting your customer and simply treating them fairly. One doesn't need to trust someone to treat them like human beings, for god's sake.

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I don't see the business model really folding in on itself either since there's a constant influx of new kids who don't know any better and don't just assume they deserve everyone's respect simply for existing but that's just speculation on my part.

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If you don't respect your client base, you'll lose them, it's that simple. The customer may not always be right, but they are the most important and that's a very basic tenet of business that even the most inexperienced layman can understand.

I'm approaching this from the perspective of a customer, an adult and a paying subscriber. You seem to be approaching this from the perspective of a developer. I've stated in the past, but I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't last long subscribed to any service you were providing, given your mentality.

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Actually, it was the rhino...

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Oh... so THAT'S where you got it!

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Ooh ooh!

*throws poop*

True story: while at the Columbus Zoo, the woman and I were watching the bonobos and she remarked, "Look at that little one. He reminds me of you."

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Nice...

There's a joke in there somewhere about the horse exhibit... but I can't seem to find it for all this poop in my eyes.

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How did this thread get so off track?


I thought we were talking about me, and how right I always am.



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Nothing ever stays on track forever around here... having a conversation around here is like trying to heard cats or get methed-up capuchin monkeys to sit still.

Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily...

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You have no idea the kind of hell a metheg-up capuchin monkey can bring you!

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Dude, you are a methed-up capuchin monkey.

But that's why I love you... Now stop dangling from that man's moustache and tell me where you got that... uh, what is that?! Is that a rhino testicle?!

Dude...

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The University of Guelph <snip>

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That is not the point, at all. There is a right way and a wrong way to argue a point, and bringing in personal attacks is the wrong way. Asking for an apology while summarily bringing up personal things completely unrelated to the situation is disingenuous at best, and hypocritical at worst.

For what it's worth, I too would like to see a public statement of apology. I just don't think insulting the person you're asking it of is the right way to go about it. Call me crazy, but if someone where to say to me "You owe me an apology, you fat person with a stupid haircut" (to use both of your examples), I'd feel rather disinclined to offer one, whether I was in the wrong or not.

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I don't want an apology, I just want to be treated like an adult.

When the game launched, for the first four issues they listened to us... then they stopped really listening to us... then Emmert left and Miller took over and they listened to us for another little while... and now they've stopped listening again. Or even realy considering us, for that matter.

I'm an adult. I pay my own bills and the name on the credit card that pays for this account is mine. I expect to be treated like an adult by the vendor from whom I'm purchasing service, and it's not happening.

They don't need to include us on everything, they don't need to "do as they're told" by us. But I'll be good and god-damned if I'm going to allow them to treat me, a 33 year old man, like a child, and that's what they're doing. They're not treating players like important members of the process, regardless of wether they think they are or not. I'm sure they'd SAY they were, they may even THINK they are, but as we all know the reality is very different. The reality is that we're shuffled off to the side and forced to deal with the consequences of crappy decisions, and then told to hush up about it, like itinerant children who've been told to shut up, be quiet and just sit over there in that corner while the adults fix the TV set, and by God, whatever channel comes up that's what you'll watch, and you better not complain about it or you'll be sent to your room without dinner.

No other industry in the world, no other business in the world can operate on this model and the MMO development community is fooling itself if it thinks that it can continue to behave like this much longer. Certainly not right now, probably not next week or even next year... but there will come a point when the customers of MMO games have had enough. Personally, I'm pretty much almost there anyway... And I'm dangerously close to giving up on MMOs altogether just simply because I'm tired of being treated like an infant by self-important myopes who think they know what it's like to be a customer of their own product, what it's like to be me and think they can tell me what I think is fun and what isn't.

They aren't. They don't and they can't.

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How did this thread get so off track?


I thought we were talking about me, and how right I always am.



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Nothing ever stays on track forever around here... having a conversation around here is like trying to heard cats or get methed-up capuchin monkeys to sit still.

Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily...

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Did I tell you to talk? Put the ball gag back in your mouth.

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You're still wearing it under your shorts, dude.

Umm... and, while we're on the topic, you mind rinsing it off before I put it in my mouth?

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Now go! Go and spread the word of no pants! Spread it!

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Please don't tell Liv to 'spread it'.

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If you're gonna talk [censored] about me, the least you can do is get down on your knees and look me in the eye.

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Very wise, very wise. And for your years of friendship I have brought you this custom made tinfoil cup engraved with your picture...

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Mmm... nothin' says luxury like wearing a cod-piece with one's own graven image thereon.

I feel like The King!

THE KING OF NO PANTS!

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umm....






what?



does anybody know what this guy is talking about? or to who?



and who is he? >.>
I think he's a spy <.<
*covers all her windows with tinfoil*

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That's a good idea...

*covers junk with tinfoil*

... What?!

Look, I don't care if they read my thoughts, but I don't want'em takin' mah boys!

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I miss him.

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I don't...

But my humanity tells me that his behaviour wasn't really his fault. I learned over the years that he was all but a prisoner in his own house as a result of extreme chronic pain or as a result of a severe accident or something and had basically a permanent Vicoden prescription. The guy was nuts and/or high all the time.

I didn't like the way he treated other people, and he didn't like me 'cause I called him on it.

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Snippet:
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All anyone wants is a statement regarding this past weeks fiasco and the poor handling of it and some CS changes.

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I mean no snark and no dis in this question: But what are you talking about? What fiasco? I am seeing all these posts about people being so angry... about WHAT?! I have yet to see anything in-game to be angry about.

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There's a new nazi regime. If you don't do exactly what Posi says you get banned. Also the forum members have all made a suicide pact and are going to kill themselves if Posi doesn't publicy apologize and name each one of them individually. Or something like that.

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Dude, you're starting to get on my nerves... if you want to disagree you're certainly free to do so, but you're starting to sound like Friggin_Tazer.

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People leave all the time. A few forumites isn't even a stastic.

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I HAVE to know what a stastic is ....

I was thinking .. if you are a forumite but NOT a stastic .. what does that make you?

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It's like a statistic, but it tastes like candy. True story. Apparently I'm not a 'forumite' but a 'troll' according to the regulars. So I'm safe.

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I don't think you're a troll, I just think you're wrong. Of course I don't know you very well, but I'm sure that'll change. I also think that maybe you've spent enough time in QA/CS in the gaming world to become jaded and bitter, almost resenting the group of people from whom you collect your paycheck.

But then you think we're wrong too, which is fine.

I gotta say, though, with all honesty, I really hope I never end up working on a game where you're in CS or QA. And that's based solely on the things you've said in this thread. I'm sure you're a nice fella, but you're probably a nightmare for the average end-user gamer.

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There needs to be a dialogue... a real one, where Mr. Millar heaves his considerable bulk off his pedestal

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dude

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What, too much?

I never know...

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It's way too much. That's an incredibly low blow, and it doesn't help anything.

Also, I don't know where the idea comes from this these are Posi's rules or that the buck stops with him on customer service matters. This is, indeed, a customer service issue, and Posi is not a part of that. Let's stop dragging him into it, ok?

And seriously Liv, you're better than that kind of petty personal attack.

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It felt really sort of off-hand, as far as I was concerned. I could have been far more cutting. To be honest it had more to do with how I percieve him doing his job than anything else. I'm not going to bother to defend the remark as it detracts from the point.

If it has to do with game design and implementation, then the buck does stop with Miller, he's the boss. As far as I know the only person he reports to is whatever NCSoft VP has been given pervue over the little boutique studio they've established.

Whatever you might think of that one line in my post, you simply cannot claim that the lead designer of an MMO isn't responsible for design and implementation issues, be they prepared features and updates or simply fixes.

EDIT - To be clear, there are two issues. There's the "fix", which is Positron's responsibility, and there's the customer service issue.

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There needs to be a dialogue... a real one, where Mr. Millar heaves his considerable bulk off his pedestal

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dude

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What, too much?

I never know...

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Then you haven't been paying attention or simply don't care. Which is your prerogative.

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Actually, just the opposite. I agree with everything they've done that I can think of. Up to and including draconian dictatorship.

I've been playing these games since Meridian 59 and I've worked in QA for 6 years. Give a player an inch they'll kill your baby and burn your house down.

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Well, I think that just about says it all, right there. There's really not much else upon which one can elaborate, you've summed up nicely for us what your mentality is and how you feel about players, and from the perspective of someone who works within the industry no less.

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Just thought I'd throw in as part of the customer base I don't feel ANY of that. I don't feel treated like garbage. I don't play with anyone that does... I haven't been hurt, maligned, dis'd or anything else by any changes or anything Posi's said or done.

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To be clear, I don't either... but others have and do. Moreover, there's nothing wrong with expression outrage at how your friends have been treated, which is, in part, what I'm doing. Not to mention that a promise is a promise.

He's right.

It seems clear to me that what he's doing by continually posting his complaint and pushing mods that are already having to enforce bull-[censored] gestapo rules, pre-empting a client base that's been abused, antagonized and tortured not simply from having any method of redress, but by silencing them altogether.

I'm on the outside, to a degree, even still. One might assume that I'm not effected by this, but the reality is very different. The reality is that as a result of the current them on these boards people are leaving.

Now, anyone who's been here for longer than about 10 minutes is familiar with the people screaming that "if you do [x] people will leave!", and we all mock those claims. They're silly and hyperbolic and usually without merit. However, this is different... this isn't that... people are leaving now. They're already leaving. That effects me, even if I choose to stay.

Continually posting the same complaint over and over isn't going to accomplish anything... in fact, this post might not even accomplish anything, and Ignicity has kind of gotten on people's nerves with the constant posting of the issue, and perhaps some of the arguments he's had in the past on other issues... but I promised him that if he could convince me that what he was saying was right that I'd support him, and he has, and I am.

You can't treat your customer base like garbage and not expect them to be angry. You can't treat your clients like commodities to be shoved around, abused and tortured and then ban them and toss them out on their ear when they have the temerity to complain. That's not how it works... and NCSoft is going to pay the price. In fact, they're already paying the price and that will be amply demonstrated next quarter when their sub reports come in. I've got a loverly bunch of coconuts that says that their sub numbers will be smaller next quarter than they were this past one.

There needs to be a dialogue... a real one, where Mr. Millar heaves his considerable bulk off his pedestal and comes down to actually talk to us... not simply pronounce policy from On High and disappear, leaving us to deal with moderators who are now in the unfortunate position of enforcing a policy that neither makes sense nor is in any way reasonable. In fact... I kind of feel sorry for them for having to be the bad guys on the back of Millar's negligent and lazy implementation of a fix that, in the end, does NOTHING to actually resolve the issue that got us here in the first place.

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Well, my friends. It's been more fun than I can say and I'm so very thankful that I happened to hit that Justice button when i started playing 5 years ago. I always said that I would be here until they brought the servers down, and that was always my intention. But, I just can't do it.

I'm honored by the friends I have made while playing. I'd like to keep as many as I can, so do please keep in touch. My email is mhjohnson33@gmail.com and you can find me on Facebook using the same email. To my friends who rode our SG train for the duration, we love each and every one of you and, like always, will always be around if you need us.

My account is active until 06/11. My second account, both of Ele's accounts, and our storage accounts are all non-active already. I'll be around, at least on the boards, until it all goes *poof*. I truly cherish the time I've spent here with you all, and will miss everyone.. even the ones I didn't always agree with. But, for now, the Minister is closing the church.

Peace, love, and hipthrusts,

~Smoke

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Remember me...

thelivinghellfire@yahoo.com

That is all...

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Damn it's good to have you back Liv!

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QFT

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Thanks, Manoa!

And you too, Lady!

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*eyes widen...then goes limp*

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*walks away from a freshly dug grave... a broadsword, stuck in the ground, bears silent witness*

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Jude was an effete snob! He died on his knees. I took his head and [censored] his woman before his blood was even cold.

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*turns and stares, coldly*

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Ah, I see. Jude lied. She was not his woman. She was 'your' woman. And she never told you. I wonder why. Perhaps I gave her something you never could, and secretly she yearned for my return.

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*reaches back in anger and grabs Smoke by the lapel*