Leatherneck

Eh....

I have exactly .017259% interest in the pack. Costumes I'm not interested in and 4 extremely limited-use emotes? It wouldn't matter to me if it were 10 bucks or 10 cents. I just can't bring myself to get all up in arms over such a remarkably minor issue.

I'm all for paying for good costumes (As a note, I'm not saying the costumes aren't well done, I'm just not into them, much less into them enough to pay for them). Personally, I"m big on capitalism. Offer a product, set a price, let the buying public sort it out.

Put out a costume pack with stuff I'd care about (hint: I'd kill, or at least seriously maim, someone for FULL Arachnos, Longbow, CoT, Tsoo and other NPC group sets...and REAL robes, I'm talking spooky sorceror robes here) and I'll pony up what I consider a reasonable amount of cash for it.

But this? The amount of whining and doom-crying are so dramatically out-of-scale for such a minor issue, it's almost funny.

Good show, NCSoft. I applaud your work on the costumes (they look spiffy as always, I'm just not interested in them for my characters) and support you in asking for what you have deemed an appropriate price for your work.

Now, make me some good robes!

OH god, no wonder...

I was looking at the URL for the pictures trying to figure out where I knew that name from.

I'll just say I've spent many an hour looking at your artwork and you did some of my favorite work for M:TG.

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pvp, at least villainside, is how the non-lazy non-brain-dead non-i-want-easy-mode-nao crowd entertains itself.

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i love the atmosphere in pvp zones.

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only because 95% of the CoX population is slightly brain damaged and cant form a cohesive strategy when faced by a larger group in a zone

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wow..........I mean wow.........I suspect the poster is one of the people that alot of these posts were referring to about the unpleasant atmosphere in PVP zones.

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Wait! You mean things like that don't encourage you to go spend your amusement/relaxation time with such a person?

Gee....whoda thunkit?

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I think something like that would be a good idea as long as there is strict enforcement of rules if a group of people use it to grief.

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That's great, for a small FPS server type setting, largely because the people playing on the server arent' paying for the priviledge.

But who's going to sit around and watch the boot system? Who is going to determine if something's being used to grief, or if there's a legitimate complaint?

Look at how pwople are already concerned about the /ignore_spammer thing. This is like /ignore_spammer times 10.

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But the argument, and it's a valid one, can be made, "Why should I have to turn off broadcast, and potentially miss out on information I want/need to hear, because some people choose to be jerks?"

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Because in every known online software obscenity filters and the like are known to degrade the performance of the person suffering abuse while the jerk gets no penalty.

One of the more interesting things I have seen in PvP games recently is a vote option where a certain number of votes boots problem players from servers. Usually a hot key controls voting to make it simple. It works just like a time out that parents use for small children but placed on a game account .

Lets say there are 20 people in Bloody Bay running an event and I happily log in as Dronemeister and start teleporting people into debt. One person puts up a motion to boot me and its 20 yes and 1 no. I get a time based boot from Bloody Bay on Test Server based on my login.

You would be amazed how well people learn after several time outs. Someone shows up abusing the latest known game issues and *boot*. First obscene tirade about someone's mom and *boot* . This allows a group of players to remove troublemakers without the GMs and frees up the development staff from having to put in special code to deal with idiots.

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So, you log in Dronemeister and are generally regarded as a very good PVP-er. You take a few minutes to get on a good team and get started. You gank me (as fair as can be and as pure as driven snow). I say to my SG (or in general villain chat) "Hey, everyone vote to boot Dronemeister". Everyone clicks "Boot". You get ejected from the zone for no good reason.

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I was in a recent PvP game where someone tried that and myself and others blocked the vote. You seem to be suggesting that the PvP community in COX is incapable of behaving like adults or policing themselves if given a chance but yet somehow the PvE community is mature enough to use the boot mechanism without systemic abuse.

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You overestimate people's morality and sense of fair play.

I was a co-leader of a leading edge guild in EQ. I've seen people do absolutely wretched things to each other just because they can. I'm not talking about 2 or 3. I'm talking about a concerted effort of 50-70 people to force non-guildmates to fail, even though it didn't gain them anything. And that was in just PVE.

I've seen PVPers go to great lengths and trouble to cause others grief. Again, not one or two people, but 30-40 at a time.

PVE-ers are no better or worse than PVPers. But, the example you gave was a PVP-boot system. I simply followed your precedent, and following the rules you laid out.

In short, if a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. Now, every little in MMO systems can't be exploited in one fashion or another, and sometimes it's not worth the effort to stop it.

But when it comes to one group of people being able to directly and adversely effect someone else's enjoyment of the game through an exploit, that should be curbed, I don't care if you're talking about PVP or PVE.

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Thank you for giving the viewpoint from someone who along with their guild would be the first people kicked. I am also interested in hearing opinions from people who would not be one of the people being removed.

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And thank you for jumping to baseless conclusions. My guild never did anything of the kind. Doesn't mean I didn't see it happen.

Funny how you just made that assumption, though, isn't it?

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Personally, one other change I'd like to see in pvp is the elimination of names, ATs and hp/end on the target bar of all the hostile players. People are either Hero or Villain and thats all you know. If you wanna know what they are, you have to get closer and see what they're actually doing to decide what they are. It'd add an element of risk and challenge that I'd like to see. Eventually, you'd get to recognize people by their costumes (unless they change costumes, adding another bit of randomness to it for a little more fun). Wolverene certainly doesn't have "Wolverene" floating over his head in orange letters with a scrapper icon next to his name and he does have a few different costumes. They've already hidden powersets from opposing 'inspectors' they may as well hide the rest of it. I could see teams/sgs wearing all the same costume having a bit of fun with this. It would also certianly put a little more risk in teleganking (and I'm not talking just stalkers, there's plenty of blaster telegankers too).

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I understand what you're saying, and to a degree, it makes sense. I do have a couple of questions for you.

With no names, how do you report someone for griefing/exploiting/cheating?

How would you know who's talking in /broadcast or (if you have them turned on) in /tells?

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But the argument, and it's a valid one, can be made, "Why should I have to turn off broadcast, and potentially miss out on information I want/need to hear, because some people choose to be jerks?"

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Because in every known online software obscenity filters and the like are known to degrade the performance of the person suffering abuse while the jerk gets no penalty.

One of the more interesting things I have seen in PvP games recently is a vote option where a certain number of votes boots problem players from servers. Usually a hot key controls voting to make it simple. It works just like a time out that parents use for small children but placed on a game account .

Lets say there are 20 people in Bloody Bay running an event and I happily log in as Dronemeister and start teleporting people into debt. One person puts up a motion to boot me and its 20 yes and 1 no. I get a time based boot from Bloody Bay on Test Server based on my login.

You would be amazed how well people learn after several time outs. Someone shows up abusing the latest known game issues and *boot*. First obscene tirade about someone's mom and *boot* . This allows a group of players to remove troublemakers without the GMs and frees up the development staff from having to put in special code to deal with idiots.

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So, you log in Dronemeister and are generally regarded as a very good PVP-er. You take a few minutes to get on a good team and get started. You gank me (as fair as can be and as pure as driven snow). I say to my SG (or in general villain chat) "Hey, everyone vote to boot Dronemeister". Everyone clicks "Boot". You get ejected from the zone for no good reason.

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I was in a recent PvP game where someone tried that and myself and others blocked the vote. You seem to be suggesting that the PvP community in COX is incapable of behaving like adults or policing themselves if given a chance but yet somehow the PvE community is mature enough to use the boot mechanism without systemic abuse.

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You overestimate people's morality and sense of fair play.

I was a co-leader of a leading edge guild in EQ. I've seen people do absolutely wretched things to each other just because they can. I'm not talking about 2 or 3. I'm talking about a concerted effort of 50-70 people to force non-guildmates to fail, even though it didn't gain them anything. And that was in just PVE.

I've seen PVPers go to great lengths and trouble to cause others grief. Again, not one or two people, but 30-40 at a time.

PVE-ers are no better or worse than PVPers. But, the example you gave was a PVP-boot system. I simply followed your precedent, and following the rules you laid out.

In short, if a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. Now, every little in MMO systems can't be exploited in one fashion or another, and sometimes it's not worth the effort to stop it.

But when it comes to one group of people being able to directly and adversely effect someone else's enjoyment of the game through an exploit, that should be curbed, I don't care if you're talking about PVP or PVE.

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There is no draw for the zones other than PVP. The non-PVP content of the PVP zones consists of badges, BB & WB mini-games (which PVPers do not play), and zone missions which are uniform and boring. If the majority of casual-players in the game are going to consider participating, there needs to be more reason to enter the zones and be exposed to it. The monolithic single-purpose mentality of the zones has failed. The model needs to be more along the lines of a mall food store where in someone walks by with other errands in mind and spontaneously thinks "I'd like to have...a Cinnabon @.@". A high level of traffic is critical for that kind of model. Beyond limiting things that actively repel players (see previous points), there needs to be content in the PVP zones which appeals to a broad section of the playerbase for its own sake

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No.
Remove PvE content from PvP zones altogether. Don't add more, don't make the current options more appealing.

Remove them.

No more missions of any kind.
Remove the XP and drops from any NPC in the zones.
If you want to make a new zone with PvE content that both sides can access, make it a purely PvE zone.


You can't make both sides happy by forcing them to interact.

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100% full agreement. Keep PVP out of PVE and take PVE out of PVP.

IF PVP is a viable, legitimate playstyle, it should be able to stand on it's own merit rather than having to force (OK, I agree people aren't forced, but that's the perception) or bribe players into PVP.

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But the argument, and it's a valid one, can be made, "Why should I have to turn off broadcast, and potentially miss out on information I want/need to hear, because some people choose to be jerks?"

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Because in every known online software obscenity filters and the like are known to degrade the performance of the person suffering abuse while the jerk gets no penalty.

One of the more interesting things I have seen in PvP games recently is a vote option where a certain number of votes boots problem players from servers. Usually a hot key controls voting to make it simple. It works just like a time out that parents use for small children but placed on a game account .

Lets say there are 20 people in Bloody Bay running an event and I happily log in as Dronemeister and start teleporting people into debt. One person puts up a motion to boot me and its 20 yes and 1 no. I get a time based boot from Bloody Bay on Test Server based on my login.

You would be amazed how well people learn after several time outs. Someone shows up abusing the latest known game issues and *boot*. First obscene tirade about someone's mom and *boot* . This allows a group of players to remove troublemakers without the GMs and frees up the development staff from having to put in special code to deal with idiots.

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So, you log in Dronemeister and are generally regarded as a very good PVP-er. You take a few minutes to get on a good team and get started. You gank me (as fair as can be and as pure as driven snow). I say to my SG (or in general villain chat) "Hey, everyone vote to boot Dronemeister". Everyone clicks "Boot". You get ejected from the zone for no good reason.

Post deleted by Ex Libris

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People are jerks in PvE zones so what's the difference? [1] Again, all I am hearing from quite a few veterans of the boards is that PvEers have no business in PvP, well there is the root of the problem. How long do we really expect PvP to survive with this attitude? [2] Sooner or later the Devs are going to realize that the population of PvP isn't enough to support it and it will be allowed to slip into the wayside. All I am hearing is "Leave my PvP alone!" or "If you don't like PvP well don't enter the zone!" [3] The point is to GET people interested in PvP! [4] And to Tal-N I ask, what does that same Scrapper do when he has to chase down a flying NPC? Exactly! I think everyone need to do a little more reflecting on the topic and take a second look at the real motivators of their objections.

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[1] /shrug. Ask someone who's bothered by the assinine broadcast chat in PVP zones.

[2] I think it's reasonable to assume that, at best, most "anti" PVP players don't care if PVP survives. Others are apathetic. I suspect relatively few people who don't PVP are activly concerned with PVP's survivability.

[3] That's actually a pretty reasonable attitude. For example in SW:G, if you didn't want to be hunted by BH's, you shouldn't play a Jedi.

Reminds me of that old Groucho Marx joke. Groucho is a doctor and a guy comes into his office saying "Doc, Doc, it hurts when I do this." Groucho's reply is "Then don't do that".

[4] Honestly speaking, good luck with that. I don't think it's going to happen. With the exception of Shadowbane and DAoC, in every MMO I've played, PVP is the minority. The difference being, SB and DAoC were designed from the ground up to be PVP+.

But the question remains, why should a player, in a PVE zone, have to inconvenience himself because of the poor behavior of others?

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And I -DEFINITELY- don't need the hostility in /broadcast that is almost always present where PvP is present.

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You do realize, of course, that you can turn off broadcast.

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But the argument, and it's a valid one, can be made, "Why should I have to turn off broadcast, and potentially miss out on information I want/need to hear, because some people choose to be jerks?"

Personally, I rarely even look at my chat box, much less look to see what's being said in there. I do know, however, information like what GMs are up, calls for LFM/LFG, and other non-garbage information is...well...broadcast there.

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I read most of the OP. I agree that PvP does have a steep learning curve and etc but he seems to lean increasing PvE in pvp zones and throwing PvP a few bones. In my opinion, there should be little, if any, pve in PvP zones. A hapless PvEr wanders into WB to get a nuke and gets killed by a stalker/blaster. The PvEr now is hostile toward PvP and won't give it a chance.

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Maybe there's a lesson to be learned there.

This is an idea that is simultaneously off-the-cuff and off-the-top-of-my-head.

What if PVP were gated by something with more meaning than level.

I'm thinking like a 3 tiered zone system that lets PVE-ers try PVP in increasingly difficult zones yet doesn't overwhelm them immediately.

The gating system would be built based on non-Arena PVP kills for that account.

Zone 1: 25% effacy. Powers have 25% effacy. Some monkeying around with that percentage could be done on a AT by AT basis (I'm thinking specifically of glass cannon types like stalkers here), but the idea is designed to address a common complaint, that of "it was over so fast I didn't know what happened". It gives them a chance to slow things down and get an idea of what's what. MOST PVE related content would be in this layer of zones.

After that, naturallly, are 66% and 100% zones with little and no PVE content.

YES, it is possible for it to be exploited. If absolute un-exploitability is the requirement for making anything, Co* wouldn't have been made.

YES, a person could get help in making the number of PVP kills needed to get to the last tier of PVP zones. If they want to do that, I don't really care.

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I concur More missions, or just more diff enemies in the paper missions...

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Better than different enemies, have the enemies make sense.

If you're in a zone where there's mostly Hellions and Skulls, why does it make sense to have lots of Sky Raiders and Council? You should be able to count on Hellions and Skulls.

Granted, I know WHY it works that way, because they've defined "Levels 5-10 are such and such enemies, 11-15 is such-and-such..." etc.

However, it would make more sense if it were zone based (or even better neighborhood based).

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Villains have... a choice of summons.

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Not even that if you're a MM.

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As it should have. Giving Blasters Unstoppable is unforgivable.

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And yet some folks want to compound one error by duplicating it villanside ?

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Yes. It's called a level playing-field.

Make PPP's available to Heroes through some series of quests.

Make EPP's available to Villains.

Call it a day.

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Spelunker is the one that I was thinking about. Three contacts magic origin. Since I'm a Techie, I have always missed them.

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You don't have to be Magic to get the mission. I've done it on any number of Tech characters.

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My Natural Scrapper's got it.

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I really don't understand why this topic keeps coming up... And I PLAY VILLAINSIDE!

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MOST of us don't understand it, because most of us play BOTH sides. Seriously, I'm not even close to alone when I look at threads like this and go "...wha?"

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Actually most of us don't understand it because most of us have an imagination that has no problem handling things like Vanguard in character villainside.

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I didn't think it took any imagination to handle. It's not at all unheard of for heroes and villains to team-up against a greater threat.

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...[Valid Points]...

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Ok, I hear what you're saying, I really do.

I quit CoH a couple months after release and came back for CoV. I played that game crazy-much and loved it, warts and all.

But I gotta tell you, i10 and i11 shouldn't have been a big shock to you for one simple reason...CoV isn't very villainous. Granted, there are a couple of arcs that are villainous, but for the most part, it's a red CoH with different ATs.

CoH: You spend 50 levels going to your contact(s) and finding out what bad guys need their lights punched out today. You traverse hostile terrain populated by stationary bands of these bad guys. When you're feeling exceptionally skillful, you go visit a NPC and have your reputation "increased" for a fee. Repeat that contact->bad guy punching -> contact cycle until you hit 50.

Rejoice.

CoV: You spend 50 levels going to your contact(s) and finding out what bad guys need their lights punched out today. You traverse hostile terrain populated by stationary bands of these bad guys. When you're feeling exceptionally skillful, you go visit a NPC and have your reputation "increased" for a fee. Repeat that contact->bad guy punching -> contact cycle until you hit 50.

Rejoice.

The "journey" is the same, only the AT and terrain differs.

The more "appropriate" gripe isn't so much that CoH and CoV issues are the same as CoH and CoV are so similar to begin with.

Unless and until there is a marked difference between CoH and CoV other than window dressing and ATs, complaining about the text of missions is like complaining about getting Strawberry Preserves instead of Strawberry Jam when really what you wanted is Roast Beast.

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Because the ALL the paying people need to know.

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Not really. I don't WANT to know. And I'm playing a Brute right now. Resting, in fact, while I post this.

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You may not want to know, but apparently you NEED to know!

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Why do the devs hate COV?

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Just to see how many people they can piss off. Pissing people off is awfully good money and it warms their cold, black little hearts thinking of the hate and discontent they generate on a continuous basis.

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I wonder if WoW's meeting stone mechanism (I vaguely remember that from the 14 day trial I tried) was intended to make it easier for people that speak different languages to group.

Seems almost custom made for that, and given Blizzard's success in other games as far as their other games, it might have been the "plan".

Then again, they could have just implemented a poorly thought-out idea.

No inventory (really, it's not inventory - it's specialized slots. You can't, for example, store an inspiration in an enhancement slot), no equip slots (like head armor, primary hand slot, etc) and no attribute stats (strength, intelligence, etc) was a big change when I started CoH way back when. I'd come from EQ, DAoC, AO, etc.

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Losing access to my powers is the prime reason why I don't like exemplaring in this game. I can handle getting no experience, I can handle being weak. But each character I have, I build with a particular playstyle I evolve, and that playstyle changes as new powers become available, often making it inapplicable when these powers are taken away. It's an unpleasant experience.

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Same here (though I wouldn't spend days and days mentoring someone with no exp). I build my characters to get the boring "stuff" out of the way first (things like auto-powers and defensive powers) since those levels go by the fastest and put off getting the "fun" stuff till later on when levels drag more.

That means when I'm exemplared down, I'm stuck with boring powers and no exp gain.

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Didn't EQ2's exemplar come after the game came out? It is nice that other MMO's are copying some stuff from CoH finally (meant that in a nice way)

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True, true. However, I do find I prefer EQ2's variant. You have access to all your abilities (albeit scaled down) and you still gain exp (albeit at a much reduced rate). You are scaled down to a character more powerful than the "average", but with the much reduced exp gain, that's not a big problem. And the person you're mentoring gets extra exp. I think exp debt is handled the same, though given that you gain less exp while mentoring, it's potentially more painful.

I've spent days mentoring friends in EQ2, even though I wasn't earning near as much exp as I would be if I weren't mentoring. I don't particularly like mentoring in Co* because I lose access to abilities and I don't believe I gain any exp. I don't mind doing it for a specific mission or something, but certainly not the days-on-end fun that I've had mentoring guildmates in EQ2.