Kid_Gloves

Lvl 50 grav/rad/psy here.

Been a while since I've been here, and in light of some soloing and occasional teaming on test... new wormhole still gets my nay vote.

It loses a lot of the utility that it had for pinpoint control. And I can safely say it isn't replaceable with TP Foe. For all those who say 'TP Foe is a pool power! We don't want a glorified pool power!' here's a few other examples:

Scrapper melee attacks and boxing. They do the same stuff, so why do scrappers have attacks?

Stealth and Superior Invisibility. They do the same stuff too, so why Sup. Invis?

It's not a bad thing to have an all-around-more-powerful version of a pool power in our primary. And wormhole-on-live is exactly that.

The new wormhole is, as has been described, poorer for managing enemies. The scatter + teleport + knockback causes confusion even if you drop them in the same place you picked them up from. It's another power for us to gain agro from our team-mates with.

In addition, it needs a lot more slot love to be effective without endangering the team. As it stands we already need to dedicate a lot of slots to other powers (GD, GDF, Singularity, secondaries to make up for our control gap). It's nice having powers that don't need significant slotting to be effective instead of downright dangerous.

Finally - PvP. TP Foe is proving to be quite a nice PvP trick. It'd be nice to be able to do similar, only with the power to pinpoint-place that squishy near the scrapper or in the debuff field of tar pit. But unfortunately doing so nets you the scrapper that has been tasked to protect the squishy too - meaning that TP Foe is now a better PvP power than wormhole. Nice to see a pool power outperforming its primary power counterpart.

We need some love, and particularly we need some love in the 12-17 range. Whenver I RSK down, that's where I feel the pain the most. Changing a lvl 26 power that worked fine thanks is not the solution - even if it gets whined about a lot on the forums. Of course you only see the whines - typically people who are happy don't comment. Now, of course, we have just reason to.

The sad thing is a rad/dark defender can control better from 12-17 than a grav/rad controller. When a defender secondary provides better control than a controller primary then something is wrong.

I've not had a chance to test out the new, longer-disorient wormhole but it sounds like a step in the right direction.

I'll still beat the rapidly dying horse of grav. needing some more love in the 8-17 range more than it needs 26+ range, but any love is better than no love.

With the disorient being more respectable, I can see this becoming our alternative form of control for when GDF isn't recycled, with the side benefit that you can do other fun things with it too.

I'll jump on test and take it for a spin, but my initial instinct says this is something I could live with - certainly a *lot* more than the earlier AoE wormhole.

In danger of turning this into a PvP discussion about fire/storm, I can suggest two things:

1. damage-slotted tornado. when you have next to no health and can't heal, its no fun.

2. snow storm (and freezing rain if they're not fleeing). The -recharge will destroy their perma-ness, meaning they have about a 5-10 second window where they have no MoG and it isn't recharged yet.

I've taken my fire/storm into the arena a lot - is my arena fighter of choice.

Here's a few things:

1. Tornado doesn't (to my knowledge) drop toggles. It does, however, drop defence and do unresistable, auto-hit damage. MoG-ers hate that (including Paragon Protectors, whose reaction to a tornado is to drop what they're doing and flee - with tornado in hot pursuit). Fully slotted tornado could be ideal for MoG, but I don't love tornado *that* much.

2. Steamy Mist + Smoke is a good escape combo. Because smoke is a non-agro power, it doesn't count as an 'attack' - so if its the last thing you do, its like activating invisibility. Great for breaking target lock and getting non-invisible-detecting people to curse your name.

3. Hurricane is amazing against scrappers and tanks - particularly early on when they don't have ranged attacks.

I strongly recommend taking a fire/storm into the arena and experimenting. I've found some nice tactics from that which carry back into the PvE game (e.g. tornado on MoG'd PPs) that I probably wouldn't have thought of with repeatedly smacking the same old predictable enemies.

My vote is we need something to fix us, not change the archetype whole-hog.

While I think that changing Dim.Shift to an AoE lift and wormhole to AoE and moving them around sounds great, that's definitely into the 'need respec' territory - we'd become a whole new powerset.

Moving powers around will be really problematic. Lets say I have dim.shift but not wormhole. They get swapped. Do I keep dim.shift? Or do I suddenly lose dim.shift and get wormhole? If so, what happens to the intangibiliy enhances I have slotted into it? If I keep dim.shift, what happens if I'm pre-26? Do I suddenly have a lvl 26 power even though I am only level 14?
These questions are all rhetorical - it's to show moving powers is something devs are likely to consider only after all other possible options have been exhausted.

I expect what the devs are looking for is something that is a single, small tweak that will fix the powerset without having to move powers around or fundamentally change their role. Certainly nothing requiring re-coding if it can be avoided - just some number juggling on an excel spreadsheet.

Changing wormhole to AoE is likely checking the AoE? checkbox and putting in a radius value. My issue is this does fundamentally change the behaviour of the power to something very different than its current role. Adding an AoE disorient onto propel is likely just as easy for a dev to do and doesn't change what propel's current role is; smack a target with something heavy becomes smack-a-target and make him and buddies concussed. If anyone uses propel as a surgical control tool rather than for its damage, please speak up now.

I get the feeling that this would not make everyone happy with every power, but it would make the least number of people unhappy while fixing our powerset's main weakness - control gap.

Redesigning the entire powerset from the ground up is too ambitious to try all at once. Small moves...

Very nice guide!

My Fire.Storm is currently level 36, and I've taken quite a different approach. Here's where my findings differ:

Ring of Fire
I found in the late-game this can be quite handy for its knock resistance. Hitting something with this followed by a gale will often seperate out them from their buddies. And if you're into Tornado like I am, it can make a very fun combo. It's faster recharge and considerably lower end. usage than fire cages means you can give one target some real attention.

Cinders
This is my second controller, and I always planned six-slotting this as soon as I got it. But every time I level'd I always had somewhere more useful to put the slots. At level 36 this still just has its base slot of accuracy and I've not regretted it. My primary hold is flashfire/fire cages - mainly because of fire cages' knock resistance. This becomes my secondary hold, and when freezing rain is already falling I find it tends to be adequate for my needs with just the one base slot.

Tornado
Got it, love it. In PvE it's situational - but it has a whole plethora of status effects including a very nice defence debuff. I tend to ring-of-fire the target I want to give attention to followed by dropping tornado right on them. The tornado gets the idea pretty quick, and effectively removes that enemy from the fight. Bosses too.
In PvP it's just fun. Sends squishies flying, debuffs scrappers and tanks so you can hit them.
Slotted 1 end.redux, 1 recharge. Considering slotting def.debuff for PvP.

Beyond that, I can only agree with your summary of the various powers. I've made choices not to take O2 boost or snow storm, but I constantly find myself in situations where I wish I had.

All in all, Fire/Storm has a lot of nice powers. They're all effective.

My problem - and worry - is that I'm losing a tool and gaining nothing to replace it.

For those who didn't take either wormhole or dimension shift, respec-ing into the new wormhole may seem like fun.

Dimension shift handles a second group of adds much better than new wormhole does.

End result - we now have two tools for doing the same job, rather than two tools for two different jobs.

I feel like a plumber who had a wrench and a screwdriver, but the screwdriver has been taken off me and I've been given a second wrench and told to cope.

And my pleas for a spanner go unanswered...


I'd ask anyone respec-ing into the new wormhole to try respec-ing into dimension shift and experimenting with using it as fringe control too. You may be surprised.

So does the entire system not apply in missions? Or only the 300' range aspect?

If I die in a mission and am dead for longer than a minute, does that interfere with my xp?

I'm hoping the answer is no, and being inside a door mission is exempt from this system.

[ QUOTE ]
I have done some quick runs after a test respec into wormhole.

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This is where I get worried. I'm glad you like the new wormhole, but the fact you respec'd into it suggests you didn't use the old wormhole. This makes a nice change for you - you're getting a power you didn't have before. However, I really hope you use it in every battle - because what you get comes at the cost of me losing a power I use in every battle.

I've also been running around on test with the new womhole (I didn't respec, so it's the same as it has always been - 2 accuravy) and I find that:

1. I can use it to move a debuff anchor around still. However, it has the added danger of nabbing nearby enemies too.

Overall this is more beneficial than before, as if the anchor is near someone else it'll grab them too. Downside is I used GD (not GDF) to knock-protect the target before shifting, so with the new wormhole anyone nearby will get thrown... usually out of the debuff.

I give this 3/5 stars for this use - it's got some advantages and disadvantages compared to old wormhole.

2. Pulling a dangerous boss from a pack when around a corner.

Old wormhole was quite reliable at this. A key difference between it and TP Foe is it will hit some big bosses as well as minions.

New Wormhole grabs the boss and all his friends too. So this tactical use is no longer viable.

Rating: 1/5 stars compared to old wormhole.

3. Removing irritating enemy-buffers: FF generators, DE eminators, Malta gun turrets

New wormhole makes this impossible. You can move that really annoying fungi, but all the DE get moved with it so your hold still isn't affecting them. They do run back leaving the paced buffer behind, but they are more likely to replace it closer to you now.

Rating: 1/5 compared to old wormhole


The upshot is the disorient is laughably short so it doesn't really justify being a control gap closer. The AoE makes it less of a surgical tool than it used to be - making it something I loved to something I regret taking. And with no more respec, I'm stuck with it.


If we are looking for an AoE disorient, I really don't think Wormhole is the sensible power to change. It's purpose is not currently primarily as a disorient.

I'm going to suggest the idea of adding an AoE disorient onto existing propel because this doesn't change the fundamental mechanic of propel (to bean people with forklifts) at all. It doesn't take away from those who already use and love propel in its current incarnation while giving gravity the boost it needs.

The wormhole change does take away from people who are using it as it stands, and that's why I have to cast my nay vote for this particular change.

My (and others) main objection to the wormhole change is it removes the existing wormhole - which some of us quite like.

That and it doesn't address the control gap issue until level 26, where all other controllers have a method of area control that is combat-friendly by level 12.

I'd suggest changing propel to the new wormhole, giving it a shorter range and keeping the old wormhole as it is, but that'd be stepping on the toes of people who like the current propel. The new wormhole is kinda fun, but it doesn't (for me) provide the same flexibility as the old wormhole does.

This is a substantial change to a power that isn't broken and allows us to do something very few other controllers can - remove pesky enemies that don't react to being held/stunned and cannot be knocked, or specifically place a single enemy where we want them - without agro-ing the enemies they've just run next to.

I for one will be lobbying for additional respec's if this goes ahead. I didn't anticipate that I should have to save my respec's for my powerset shifting under me.

Best solution has already been proposed, but here it is again:

Propel: single target: foe knockback, high (superior? moderate?) damage, AoE disorient

Wormhole: leave as is in i3

So only the single target gets knocked and damaged. Target and the guys near him get disoriented. As long as with a bit of slotting we can perma-disorient an even-con, I'd be one heck of a happy grav. We're not looking at a long-term perma-disorient from propel, the end. cost sees to that nicely.

This gives the grav. controllers their needed AoE in the level range they need it, closes the evil control gap, doesn't take away from the grav controllers already using propel as a damage source (either leave as is in i3 or a slight boost) and doesn't interfere with the few gravs who use dim. shift and wormhole as they are.

If anyone would be unhappy with that proposal, please say so.

(actually I would be a bit miffed because I've used all my respec's and don't have propel, but c'est la vie)

Count me as another voice in the 'nay!' camp. I don't like it.

I've not read the thread in its entirety, so apologies if I'm writing things already said.

* Wormhole as it was had a tactical use that came up fairly regularly. There's enough placeable annoyings in the 26+ game that make this worthwhile - DE eminators, gun turrets, etc. and it is also an excellent pulling tool and method of keeping debuff-anchors in the fight. It's not useful as such in the pre-26 game, but its also not available in the pre-26 game. So no problem.

* Wormhole the 'improved' has been relegated to a pulling tool or very crappy disorient. The animation times are too long to make this work with something else, and I feel we've now been given yet another 'wow, looks cool but doesn't do much' power to replace one that actually had a use. If you want something for putting enemies out of the fight a long way away that the team will have to move over to after the current fight, can I recommend dimension shift?

* The gravity controller suffers the most in the 8-17 range. Every other controller archetype has a method of keeping groups under control in this level range. It may be a sleep, sure, but given that most even-level heroes don't have a plethora of AoE attacks at this time (spines scrapper and fire blaster notwithstanding) a sleep can be pretty effective.
As a player with a level 50 gravity controller I always feel bad about broadcasting 'Caverns Trial looking for non-gravity controller!' because a pre-18 gravity controller cannot provide the control to handle a bad pull or adds. But I'd only recruit a pre-18 gravity controller if I had another controller to do the control job already. A level 26+ AoE short disorient with a long cast time is not the solution here.

* Propel is still pretty but useless, and remains more useless than pre-change wormhole.

The current wormhole changes are just that - changes. They add nothing to the powerset.

I don't understand why propel wasn't chosen as the one to change. There are mixed feelings on wormhole, mixed feelings on dimension shift. But from what I can tell practically everyone considers propel to be sub-par. How sub-par varies, but sub-par nonetheless. Not to mention it sits smack in the middle of the level range where we gravs have our biggest weakness.

Level 8-17 is a very long control gap. At level 18 we can at least make the gap shorter.