Kazarak

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I count my blessings that you are not a game designer. How many games do you know where the 1st level is as hard as the last? Games start out easy and work in the challenge gradually for a reason. It's called hooking the player. Just like most movies don't show you the climactic final act in the first 5 minutes (with a few exceptions).

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Yeah whatever. What keeps a person hooked is gameplay and the consistency of that gameplay. If a game is easy for the first ten levels, they're likely going to think it's going to be easy for the next umpteen levels... and pre-issue #2, it was that way. The game was super boring.

Now the devs finally bring the gameplay up to where it should have been from day one and of course all the pansy cowards are up in arms because they can't mash buttons without any thoughts toward strategy or tactics.

I would much rather the game be a consistent difficulty from level 1 to level 1 Zillion, if that's even a real number. When I design encounters for D&D and NWN, I try to make them appropriately challenging for the correct level range. All the way from level 1 to the epic levels. The group is challenged. It's not that hard to do. What's harder to do is plan ahead for the wacky and zany tactics and ideas the players come up with. In CoH, the devs have a huge advantage over me. They know exactly what players can and can't do. They can also run battle simluations over an' over that I can't for D&D.

Balancing combat in an online game an making it just challenging enough, as they've done in the Hollows, is much easier than doing so for D&D.

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I agree that gameplay keeps a player hooked but you have to get them hooked in the first place. 99% of games do this, look back and you'll see. You might do this in your D&D games but if you had a player, or a full group who had never played before wouldn't you start out easy for them? It just makes good design sense. People react much more favorably to easy than they do to hard. It's human nature. I'm different, I do actullay like a challenge, so do you, the difference between us is that I understand that part of human nature, and as near I can tell (I could be wrong) you do not.

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And I think the challenge belongs in the entire game at all levels once you leave the Tutorial. Otherwise you'll have whiners coming to the forums griping and moanining and complaining that the game past level 12 is too hard. Wah wah wah. It doesn't matter what Cryptic does, someone will btich about about the game being too hard. So far I really haven't seen anyone complain about the Hollows being too easy... so methinks the Hollows is balanced perfectly, as is, for a Hazard zone.

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I count my blessings that you are not a game designer. How many games do you know where the 1st level is as hard as the last? Games start out easy and work in the challenge gradually for a reason. It's called hooking the player. Just like most movies don't show you the climactic final act in the first 5 minutes (with a few exceptions).

This isn't about your challenge, you can still get a challenge by taking higher conned enemies AND you'll get more xp to boot.

New players are going to find the Hollows frustrating, and intimidating beyond belief. Since they're new they're not going to be familiar with where it's safe to hunt, or how it's safe to hunt. All they'll know is that their contact sent them there and this is what they have to do. They wont know that they can ignore the contact or do other things because nothinig in the game tells them that.

I understand why people want the Outcasts to stay the same. All I'm saying is start the challenge at level 12. Any level earlier than that adds a few hours of fun for the veterans and nothing more. Now if the Outcasts had these powers post level 12 then you can enjoy the challenge for a much longer time.

Do you really want more challenge in less time or more challenge in more time? People are continually attacking/challenging my position without fully understanding or thinking about what I'm advocating. I WANT the challenge. I want it where it belongs, post 12 where I'm going to spend more time enjoying it and where it more appropriatly belongs.

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Now you and the legion of whining crybabies want to turn it back into that boring game. People will quit a boring game long before they quit a challenging game. Right now, I'm loving Issue #2. It's brought fun back to the game. I've beaten the Eel mission several times with non-uber FoTM builds and people still [censored] and whine about it. Those people just need to learn to play the game better. They don't even have to spend that much effort learning as there are plenty of posts on these forums that explain in detail how to play the game better.

It's that simple. Leave the difficulty as it is. The real gamers will continue playing and enjoy it and the pansy cowards will go back to playing the Sims Online or something where they belong.

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You make me so tempted to resort to your level and retort with personal attacks, however I will refrain.

If advocating that the game get harder at 12 and rev up to a challenging level in the 20s makes me a Sims playing, whining cry baby then I think something is seriously wrong.

How long does it take you to level from 5 to 12? I love a challenge but it doesn't belong at level 5. It belongs at level 12 and up. Now get your facts straight and for Gods sake, drop the personal attacks from your arguement!

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Kazarak,

No disrespect intended, but what the <bleep> are you talking about?!? The Hollows is a HAZARD ZONE and the devs ALREADY toned it down. It is the best zone in the game for those of us who have been playing since beta to run our alts. The one contact who needed to be moved has been moved. There ABSOLUTELY needed to be a challenging low-level zone for those coming around again while the newbs get everything else. If you have a better way for the first 20 levels of an alt. to be other than insanely boring then we are listening...

Statesman and other devs reading this, please DO NOT nerf this zone any further! The changes to date to make it less of a suicide zone even for old hands have been good, but it is now just perfect.

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What am I talking about? Did you read my posts?

Why do you need a challenge between levels 5 and 12? IF you're a veteran you can level past that in a few hours.

I'm advocating that the challenge BEGIN at 12 and increase until the 20s or 30s, and then stay at a challenging level. I'm also advocating that the low levels remain easy for new players. It's easy for us to level past them and not loook back, but you don't want a new player to get bottlenecked, intimidated and/or frustrated.

If they changed the Hollows to a level 12 to 20 Hazard zone then I'd be fine with the Outcasts remaining the way they are now. But since it starts at level 5 I think it needs to be toned down.

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The Hollows really is one scary place, but it is a hazard zone, and I feel that justifies it. Hazard zones should not be soloable unless you're 2-3 levels above the mobs you're fighting, in my opinion. In other words, I like it scarey. Running through the hollows at mid-level for the zone feels like running through a war zone. You have to pay attention, you have to be on your toes, in a phrase, you have to actively playing... put away the snacks, turn off the TV, and put down the phone. You're in a hazard zone!

That's how it should be...

Vega

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Who said they should be solo'd?

Aside from that, yeah I agree you have to be good and up to the challenge. Which is exactly why it must be nerfed. If this was something that was level 12 and up, I think that'd be great. But it's level 5 and up. Lets not forget, not every player is a CoH veteran. Some are new and might find the challenge to be too imitidating or frustrating. As I've said before, people in general are more prone to quit something they perceive as being too difficult, than too easy. Players should have an easy time at the low levels. We don't want someones first impressions of the game be that it's intimidating and frustrating...

Pre 12 or 14 levels should be easy
12 to 14 a little harder
14 to 16 harder
16 to 18 harder
...

you get the point. The difficulty should scale up starting at either 12 or 14 until it reaches a challenging level in the 20's. NOT start out hard in the 5s...

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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).

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I have to agree with the sentiments of those that thought making the outcasts and trolls different than the vanilla Skulls/Hellions was a great thing. Please don't take the powers away from them (well, maybe Hurricane *grin*)

In my experience so far, it seems that, for many people, its just not sinking in that the Hollows is a Hazard Zone. Its the same thing that, in the past, happened with Perez. The first time someone encounters Perez Park, they don't know what to make of a Hazard Zone. Then they end up face-down on the sidewalk because they were used to small groups of mobs, not groups of 10 mobs.

It is a Hazard Zone, it should be, well, Hazardous!

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Except that these same enemies spawn in Steel Canyon and Skyway City.

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I understand what you say completely but my post was a response to someone.

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Sorry to have directed my post at you. I meant for it to be more directed towards an audience, it just made for a convienant launching point.

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If outcast start shooting useless machine guns instead of thier elemental powers that is gonna suck. Just gonna be the same old useless mobs they were before just in a different zone. Coh needs to make a good first impression for new players right. Repetitiveness wont help, I say to please everyone dumb down the outcast but make them more unique. Not idiots that shoot machine guns that just debuffs defense. They need to be a step up from hellions and skulls not the same. Right now I rather fight a lead scorcher then a bone daddy anyday. Those that seem right to you.

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To this I say, if UFOs abducted Statesman and turned him into their pawn, then forced him to replace enemies in the game with Teletubbies it will definatly suck.

What's the point of useless speculation? He didn't say the powers were being replaced with guns. He simply used guns as a comparison. He said they were being tunned down and some removed. We don't know yet which powers are being removed. It could be a bad guy has Flares, and Fire Bolt and Flares is being removed. It could be they have unseen powers such as Stamina and they are being removed.

Lets not start proactively complaining about something that might not even come true. Hold fire until you can see the target you're shooting at...

Yes, I agree with 1stLancer. I'm going to repeat an arguement I made earlier in the thread since no one can apparently counter, or it's been missed.

POINT 1: People, by arguing against the change you're arguing to get less XP. Let me make this clear....

BEFORE THE FIX

A. To get a challenge, skilled players take a group of whites. Good challenge, moderate xp.

B. Less skilled players take a group of greens/blues. Medium/lite challenge, poor xp.

AFTER THE FIX:

A. To get a challenge, skilled players take a group of yellows/oranges, good/great xp.

B. Less skilled players take whites. Moderate xp.

YOU STILL GET A CHALLENGE POST FIX AND YOU GET MORE XP. Why is this so hard to understand? Plus the players less skilled than you get more xp because they can take whites. Both sides win. What's wrong with this? You want to lose?

POINT 2: It is critically important that the lower levels (1 to 12 or 14) be relatively easy and fun. These are the levels that players will forge their first impressions of the game. These are also the levels when people are learning how to best use their power, and play the game.

It's a fact of life that most people will quit something FAR, FAR more quickly if a task is too hard, than if it's too easy.

Now, an arguement definatly needs be made about making the later levels more challenging. I say gradually tune up the difficulty at level 14 (or possibly 12). Keep increasing the difficulty until the 20's or 30's then keep it at a challenging level.

Thanks for posting the list. Looks good so far. It'll be interesting to see some the details when they become available.

I dont' know... I can do with out the Thunder Strike and Lightning Storm (a lvl 32 power) being used by 6th level bosses, and this doesn't even mention all the other powers the same bosses use. I say getting rid of those 2 would be a good idea. The other powers the bosses have, maybe keep.

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Fewer powers

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Keep in mind, we have no idea what he means here. They might have Stamina, or some other unseen power. They might have Flares and Fire bolt and they're losing the flares. Lets wait and see.

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why not keep the powers but tone them down... or better yet... actually have them run out of endurance like we do. it's frustrating to not be able to do anything because we are constantly stunned or held.

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They are tunning them down. Let me emphasize for those who haven't read, or haven't interepeted his post: He did not say they were REPLACING the powers with guns. He said they were "Tuning them down".


Here is his post verbatim:
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).


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What in the hell more of the same mobs with stupid machine guns and bats. Flares and Iceblast choice of powers you choose when you create characters. Bah really bad decision while your at it get rid of Tsoo sorcs hurricane and there healing ability. Why not just give abberants guns to and give up there hold powers. Why give in, the new outcast and trolls after patch were perfect. Sigh the direction this game is going, the only problem was the +1 missios spawn why mess with the outcast powers.

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The reasons why make sense to me, not only for reasons I've already mentioned above but also...These levels represent a players first impression of the game. Players are more likely to quit when something is too hard than when something is too easy. Not saying I do, or you do, just most people do.

If any upping of difficulty is called for it should begin at 14 (when you get your travel power), grow gradually and peak in the 20s or 30s then stay at that level.

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*sigh*

Must we battle over the definiton of a word?

I was simply calling you on the definition of whine.

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if your gonna "call me on the definition of whine", then yes . . . i guess we are going to battle over the definition of a word.

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Nice avoidance of the dictionary defintion being held against your definition. I especially liked how you clipped the quote and conveniently left it out. Anyhow, I'm done with arguing w/you over the definition of the word. Clearly not only have I won but the english language has as well. Thanks to Websters Dictionary.

*sigh*

Must we battle over the definiton of a word?

I was simply calling you on the definition of whine. You can whine about anything. You can whine that sky is green, you can whine that 1+1 = 3, you can whne that something is too easy, or too hard.

Here is your post flaming me for my definition of whining:

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wanting things to be more challenging is whining?

what kinda bizzaro wrold are you from?

whining is the act of complaining unjustly. saying something is too hard when it isnt is a whine.

making the claim that something is too easy and should not be made easier is not a whine . . .

i cant believe im actually trying to explain what whining is to someone. oh wait, this is the internet . . .



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Here is webster dictionary definition:

Main Entry: whine
Pronunciation: 'hwIn, 'wIn
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): whined; whin·ing

1 a : to utter a high-pitched plaintive or distressed cry b : to make a sound similar to such a cry <the wind whined in the chimney>
2 : to complain with or as if with a whine


Allow me to quote you again..

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i cant believe im actually trying to explain what whining is to someone. oh wait, this is the internet . . .


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waaaaaaaah I want it harder, waaaaaaah.

That's not whining? Ahem, speaking of bizarro universes...


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when the shao lin master says the pain is not bad enough, hit him harder.

when the navy seal says the conditions he is training under are not harsh enough, make it tougher.

when the karate master says 3 boards is too easy, make it 6.

theyre whining?

i'd like to see you call them whiners . . . i'd pay money to see that.

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*sigh*

I never said asking for more of a challenge was whining!!!

YOU said I said that. I did not.

I said many, not all, of the posts asking for more of a challenge was whining.

Lets compare:

NOT WHINE: "The game is too easy right now. I need to be inspired and challenged!"

vs.

WHINE: "Why is the game so easy? Can't they make it harder? Why? Its so easy its not fair. I don't like it"

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you're hopeless

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Your arguement has resorted to that? A personal attack? I suppose this means I've won this round. Victory is mine!

P.S. You realize uncalled for personal attacks are considered Trolling by the Board Guidelines and explicitly forbidden.

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If you're in a group that's dying lots... someone's not playing nice with the others. An organized group with a balance of archetypes can take just about anything within their level range and then some. It just requires teamwork. Simple as that.


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I've been in teams and rarely do they work like well oiled machines. You always run the risk of having bad/poor players. What then? Kick them and go back and recruit? That requires time, and the patience of the team you're leading. If it takes too long, more might drop out, which requires more recruiting. Difficulty can mean more than just harder bad guys.

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I can. With my Fire/Dev blaster, Fire/Fire tanker, Katana / Regen can, and with my Force Field / Energy Blast defender. It make take a few ( a lot of) inpspirations, but it's doable. Now if you're talking about just charging in and trying to nuke 'em / slash 'em / bash 'em all down while they all beat on you... no, not going to happen. But if you play smart, use the terrain to your advantage and know how to fully use all your powers, you can take 'em.


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Use terrain to your advantage? Like dumpsters? What specifically do you mean? I'm not going to call you a liar. However I will say that a level 5 to 15 who can take a group of 6 to 8 minions, 2 Lts and possibly 1 boss is INCREDIBLY SUPER DUPER MUCHO RARE.

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All this aside. Players groaning for more difficulty could be described as whining as well. Whining that it not be changed. Have you read many of the posts out there?

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wanting things to be more challenging is whining?

what kinda bizzaro wrold are you from?

whining is the act of complaining unjustly. saying something is too hard when it isnt is a whine.

making the claim that something is too easy and should not be made easier is not a whine . . .

i cant believe im actually trying to explain what whining is to someone. oh wait, this is the internet . . .

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waaaaaaaah I want it harder, waaaaaaah.

That's not whining? Ahem, speaking of bizarro universes...

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Its amazing how people cry when they cant go and **** every group without being scathed.

Last i checked, Batman, Punisher, Spiderman, Superman, Green Lantern, Fantastic 4, All of the Xmen: All of them got their [censored] beat on more than one occassion by rushing into a large group of villains with no plan. Same should apply to stupid players.

As for tactics:
Its called tactics for a reason. Say have a blaster snipe and draw aggro, pulling the group. Runs behind a building, watches the mob rush to him. (This would be like LTs and such, say outcasts in particular. They would have all cast their initial powers, which happens to be their strongest most of the time) he runs to the other side of the building as they come into view, and the mob continues to follow, rushing into the hero group, ignoring them because their real beef is with the blaster. This is when that group goes nuts and kills em.
Also works with taunt. Drawing them close eliminates the range advantage most villains have, and lets tanks and scrappers go to work on them with relative ease. Of course a controller helps: very good for holding the group in place while the melee's go to town.

Tactics arent hard to devise my friend. It just seems some people aren't as prone to using the majority of their brains to create them.

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When it's changed, can't you go and do this to oranges and get MORE xp for doing it? When it's changed can't players who aren't as good as you do this to whites and get MORE xp for doing it?

Are you really advocating for a lose/lose scenario? Think about it. You get your challenge AND more xp to boot. This is bad because...why?

Who said he was giving in because of the whines? How do you know what was happening inside Cryptic?

Maybe they were split internally over the difficulty and players put them more in the direction of easing up.

Maybe they just plain didn't intend for it to be as difficult as it was.

Maybe NCSoft is twisting their arms

Maybe they planned to ease up the difficulty all along but have been focusing on stabilization and other more pressing issues.


All this aside. Players groaning for more difficulty could be described as whining as well. Whining that it not be changed. Have you read many of the posts out there?

Even putting that aside. You have a split player base. One side wants more challenge the other less. Which side do you lean towards? It's always better to lean towards easier. Most players don't quit because something is too easy (granted some do, but most don't). However, difficulty is the opposite. Most players will give up on something too difficult, and with the market being as competitive as it is now, quitting is very easy for them to do.

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Statesman:

I love the new Outcast powers, in fact it's probably one of my three favorite things about the new update. They're very challenging to face, but employing reasonable tactics they're not impossible. Any halfway decent group should be able to face the Outcast without fear.

I'm begging you to collect data for another few weeks before making these adjustments because I think the existing player base just needs to learn to adapt new strategies for facing these devious foes.

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Would you care to shed a light on this gem of wisdom you posess? What new strategies are important in these zones? More Conrollers? Nope, because controllers don't AoE hold at those low levels. More Defenders? Nope, they were already highly desirable. More Tanks? Nope, they too are already highly desirable at that level. More Scrappers? Nope, since there's not much AoE at these levels, Scrappers are as valuable as Blasters (perhaps more so).

Does it mean more hit and run raids to dwindle mobs? More pulls? Perhaps, but how heroic do you feel doing that? I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just doesn't make feel like a very super superhero. Does it mean more full groups of 6 to 8? Yes, it does. However not every player can spend all night waiting and hoping to get into a group. The few who are like me, who organzie groups find it takes a great deal of time, and it requires continual re-recruiting as players log out/quit.

I like to think I'm well versed in strategy. Every strategy I come up with for the new difficulty has a downside. Granted, most did before too, however the difference is much more dramatic now.

There were many pages of posts about the difficulty of the new Outcasts in the Hollows in the Training Room (test server forum). Sadly near all were ignored by the devs. I think it's a safe bet the difficulty will stand. Call me crazy but I agree with a lot of the testers posts on on the Training room forum, if unchanged then in a few months the Hollows will be like Faultline, and PP will go back to bursting at the seams.