Johnny_Butane

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however, changing a Tanker's damage mechanics is considerably simpler than power customization was

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No it's not. Power customization is extremely simple, yet time consuming. It requires no balancing, just an investment in revamping art assets. It's largely a question of building an interface and lots of tedious graphic chores. Compared to adjusting balance issues, it's fairly self contained and modular. A larger undertaking? Absolutely. Simpler than devising a new mechanic for at AT who's not gotten attention in some time and carefully balancing and testing it? I'd say.

Major AT changes are typically spaced far apart to allow the results of the changes made to be monitored better. Blasters, Stalkers, Doms felt like a natural progression to me. Defenders are likely next, and in my opinion deserve to be. I expect some other ATs to get to get looked at in anticipation to GR, perhaps as well as a result of it, and hopefully that includes Tankers.


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Prove it.


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To you? I don't have to.

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What the developers believe as "reasonable" does not always match what the player base does. What quite a few players expect from this game does not often match with "reasonable".

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And what the developers say is "reasonable" changes over time. Once upon a time, power cutomization wasn't reasonable.


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After two years of trying, I'm sure most people and quite a few animals would have figured that out.

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How long have Dominators been needing a change? How long have people been asking for power customization? For side swapping?

The fact is, the devs move at a glacial pace. Two years is nothing really. One of these days they'll get sick of hearing it. meanwhile, I've got got more than enough fuel to keep this up and Tankers are worth it.


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Unfortunately, most of those expectations are quite unreasonable.


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Prove it.

Most of the poeple here have agreed on a number of solutions for Tankers that they deem quite reasonable in theory.

The developers don't weight in either way, so in this case their silence can not be taken to equal disagreement, nor can it ever really.



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A baseball bat and magic hammer both do Mace damage.

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Which has no bearing on:

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Ability to defeat enemies and the effort and time it takes you greatly influence how powerful a character is perceived.

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Simple- play a Scrapper or Brute.

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Brutes and Scrappers existing is not an excuse for not fixing Tanker design flaws and their failure to live up to reasonable expectations any more than Controllers negated the need to address Dominator issues.


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Damage numbers are just a game mechanic, they don't reflect concept or power levels.

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Ah but they do. They are our feedback as players as to the power level trying to be conveyed.

That is why "weaker" attacks generally deal less damage and more powerful ones deal higher damage.

That is why more powerful enemies deal higher damage then grunts.

Damage is also how enemies are defeated. Ability to defeat enemies and the effort and time it takes you greatly influence how powerful a character is perceived. How am I to feel powerful about a Tanker who takes much more time to defeat a Boss or EB than a Scrapper or Brute who take less time, when all three ATs can stand up to said Boss's/EB's attacks?

Damage may not precisely equal power level in this game, but the two are far from strangers.



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Here's a nod to Johnny, allow Competition/Opposition to afford solo tanks a built in Assault buff (say 12%)

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On a Tanker, a 12% damage buff is nothing. That's less than half a small red inspiration.



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Unlike J_B, I was not able to sit for long on this chair while playing.

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I'll sit on my damned throne of bayonets if it helps Tankers get closer to the comic book ideal they should be.



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Which ideal though?

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One of the ones that aren't about being a mediocre damage rodeo clown.


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Unlike J_B, I was not able to sit for long on this chair while playing.

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I'll sit on my damned throne of bayonets if it helps Tankers get closer to the comic book ideal they should be.



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No, I'm genuinely sorry.

If people had stuck to their guns instead of rolling over and taking it or walking away from the game, Tankers wouldn't be rodeo clowns.

Tankers got screwed over, and people with attitudes like that allowed them to be screwed over.

I'm not trying to bait you into anything, because like I said, I think you've been broken. And the only thing useful broken are pack mules, which appropriately, are what Tankers are little more than.



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Here are the real reasons I see for a tanker damage buff:


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Let's not refer to anything we talk about here as a 'tanker damage buff'.

That makes it sound as if people are seeking a blanket increse to Tanker damage or damage mod change, and I don't think anyone here is advocating that.

'Tanker offense change' seems more accurate to me, because that also includes ideas like stacking -res debuffs on attacks people have suggested and such.



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Anyway, this is old news. But I thought it's interesting that 4 years later, we're talking about the same thing.


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That's because four years later, the problem still exists.

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no comic book Tankers


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That's just semantics.

Tankers are still no closer to the super heroes in comics and other media who have powers like super strength and invulnerability. They don't meet the reasonable expectations people have for characters with powers like those, because such characters are typically heavy hitters who deal considerable damage and Tankers are mediocre damage decoys.

CoH is it's own universe, fine. People still have expectations based on other media and past experience and the developers should make a reasonable attempt to line up with that. Fire Blast should deal fire damage. Katanas are fairly fast weapons. Ice slows people down. With Tankers, they failed to reasonably live up to many people's expectations. Emmert admitted to that.

So the question is, if four years later people are still talking about it and complaining the same complaints, why is that not a red flag to the current developers that something should be done about it?


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Personally speaking, I would love to have any concept implemented that improves Tankers to more my view of how they should play. I would. It's only natural. But I'm also happy (resigned?) to playing them as the Devs view them

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I'm sorry to see you let them break you.
Perhaps you're not the Tanker you thought you were.

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I've accepted that what I want isn't always what others want.

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In this case, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Tankers can be closer to being heavy hitters and not negatively impact anyone who likes them as is.


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Where did Vox specify that? Or is that just another convenient distinction only you're making, like 'lowest melee damage dealer'?

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He said 'Clockwork Boss'

If he had meant otherwise he should have specified 'Psychic Clockwork Boss', because the two groups have different names.


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Can you tell me how to slot Hand Clap to make it pick up a Boss over my head and break it in half?

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In a comic book representation of a CoH fight, my Tank could definitely pick up a Clockwork Boss and tear it in half.

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Yeah of course. He's like a level 50 and the Clockwork stop at level 20.



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Tell that to the Clockwork in the two Clockwork King missions you get in Peregrine Island.

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The Clockwork in question are the regular ol' electric attack spamming variety.



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Can you tell me how to slot Hand Clap to make it pick up a Boss over my head and break it in half?

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In a comic book representation of a CoH fight, my Tank could definitely pick up a Clockwork Boss and tear it in half.

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Yeah of course. He's like a level 50 and the Clockwork stop at level 20.



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That picture looks about right to me. You could easily substitute my Tanker for Statesman in it, or pretty much anyone else's.

Except Johnny's. He says they suck.

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Can you tell me how to slot Hand Clap to make it pick up a Boss over my head and break it in half?



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It's not all that different from the way you slot Cobra Strike to do the same thing.

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FWIW, I always thought Cobra Strike should have a respectable -res debuff to it.


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That picture looks about right to me. You could easily substitute my Tanker for Statesman in it, or pretty much anyone else's.

Except Johnny's. He says they suck.

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Can you tell me how to slot Hand Clap to make it pick up a Boss over my head and break it in half?



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EDIT *Ahem*
On who comic Tankers fight:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5...avyhitters.jpg


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For the record, Statesman is an Incarnate and therefore overpowered by player standards.

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At your own link, Incarnate is an origin, not at AT. When is the last time Technology or Natural had a bearing on your role or abilities?



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Here's another question. What is the scrapper supposed to be doing while the tanker is still handling all the aggro management, soaking up the damage AND going after the boss?

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Likely in his own mission soloing an AV.

Seriously, he should be clearing the crowds with his faster attacks like a little blender set to 'Mince'. You wanna give someone better AoE? Give it to Scrappers. They're apparently hard up for a team role. Larger crowds are found on teams, which is an area I don't think Tankers have a problem.

Better AoE really wont help Tankers when solo, unless you want to make them better at grinding in hazard zones, which is a goal I don't share.

Wolverine, Daredevil, they fight a bazillion ninjas. Colossus or the Thing take on the giant ninja robot.

EDIT *Ahem*
On who comic Tankers fight:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5...avyhitters.jpg


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Heavy hitting does not have to mean more damage. When a Brute or Scrapper hit, they do damage but when a Tanker hits he hits so hard that the blow plows through his intended target and hits others in range.


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And when they hit one guy, it's like a sissy slap. How is that being a heavy hitter?


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Tankers can have an offensive boost without becoming heavy hitters. Heavy hitting is your wish and for you there will be Going Rogue.


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Blue Brutes are not, and never were, what I am looking for in a heroic heavy hitter, or what I think Tankers should be. See my quote about comic Brutes vs comic Tankers.

Going Rogue is the last thing I ever wanted the devs to do, is more likely to harm Tankers and the only good that could possibly come of it is maybe prompting the developers to do something about Tankers.


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If i was given somehow the ability to modify tankers, though, I would somehow modify them to be AoE specialists. They would not be the best at ST damage but they would be the most effective AoE fighter, both endurance and damage wise.

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And I would object to that. Specializing in fighting lots of weaker little guys who can't even really harm you doesn't sound very heroic to me. In fact that sounds very Brute-like. A bully almost.

My view of comic Tankers is they pick the biggest guy in a group and unload on them. They are the heroic big guns on the team. You don't use the large cannon of a military tank to take down the soft targets. They're used to pop the hard targets.

I would favour _Ultimo's idea about damage diffusion in crowds over this. At least that fits with the trait many comic Tankers have of holding back on the weaker guys they could seriously hurt and being able to cut loose on the big bads.

Again I say:

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Comic Brutes get carried away on their anger. Comic Tankers make a tactical decision to kick it up a notch and stop pulling their punches.

Which is something I've been trying to get for CoH Tankers.

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QFT, hit the nail on the head, with a sledge.

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Plus I don't think a lot of players would consider another click power to manage all that fun. Adding an ability similar in function to the least popular AT probably isn't the best idea.

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If they didn't feel like managing it, they could ignore it and not loose anything they have now.


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However it's too boring of a buff. It would still keep tankers being "the lowest damage melee AT" and people would still whine, specially after power proliferation is complete (if it ever happens.)

If the tanker is found to need an offensive boost, I would like that to come in a more original form than just more damage. And No, fury is taken so think of something else!

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This echos my feelings. A unique mechanic would allow Tankers to hit harder than any blanket buff/multiplier change could.

In my opinion any offensive change for Tankers would have to:

-Allow them to be heavy hitting like Brutes and Scrappers.

-Make Tanker offense more interesting and distict. Of the melee ATs, Tankers' offensive distinction is that they don't have anything dinstinct. They are Scrappers without the puntuation of Criticals, Stalkers without Assassin's Strike. Brutes without Fury. In a sea of many flavours, they are plain vanilla. At least give them sprinkles.

-Have minimal impact on players who like Tankers as is.

-Be conceptually suitable.




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This isn't to trick you into saying so, but would a 0.9 mod fly with you? Despite what you said, I still consider my proposal way more tame than that.


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