Johnny_Butane

I know of Stalkers. They're easy to miss because they tend to turn invisible.

They have(had?) the same issue of having to suck just to make Scrappers and Brutes look good. They are(were?) exiled to the other end of the melee spectrum that Tankers were.

Truthfully, I don't know how Stalkers are since their last round of changes. I do know that their reputation of being inferior to Scrappers hasn't improved much in my observation.


I will say, as I always have, that if Stalkers and Tankers were the only melee ATs that had been created from day 1, everyone would likely be a lot happier.


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By that logic, why not raise the Tanker damage cap if the people who want to play Brutes and Scrappers are just going to continue to do so.

Because doing so would cut into someone's lunch time? I'd gladly pay for the meal.

If those are the two important considerations, what's it to the devs to up damage damage or damage caps?

Tankers would still play differently because they don't have Criticals or Fury.



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It appears I missed the exit to the alternate universe where you don't have a blatant bias for Scrappers. Over there Incarnate Brutes and Scrappers still get Rebirth Destiny and cap their resistances with Barrier every 120 seconds, but Tankers aren't throttled for damage all of the time just for having 10% more max HP than a Brute.


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Scrappers and Brutes don't need gimmick day to drum up popularity and morale.



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All it would likely take is a damage boosting Destiny ability to be added and then yes, we can assume everyone will be damage capped.




Bruising only affects a single target. Brutes are doing 1.52 times the damage of Tankers with those numbers, yet Tanker HP cap is only like 1.1 times higher, and all the other caps are the same.


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Why should the players who are playing the game using SOs mind if the Tanker damage cap was increased?

Why do you think they would suffer?

Except in the very passage you quoted.




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Thank you.

I care about the Tankers I've rolled as well as the Brutes and Scrappers I've rolled. And I don't think it's very FUN hitting the wall with my Tanker even before the Incarnate system has really begun while Brutes and Scrappers have it made.


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If you don't think balancing the Incarnate system and the caps should matter, then what's it to you if Tankers got higher damage caps?


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True to a point, but IO boosts don't matter much when the Tanker is hitting the damage cap. Like I said, I didn't build for damage and my SS Tanker does, fairly often. I'm sure SD/SS or SD/KM must ram into it constantly.

No.



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And you don't see anything wrong with that. If you did, you won't admit to it.

This. This is the heart of the problem. Brutes and Scrappers have a good thing going. They're extremely popular, extremely powerful ATs. Brutes at the caps are 100% numerically superior to Tankers at the caps and there's no denying it. You don't even try to.

Brutes and Scrappers have got loads of enthusiasts backing them, and those people know how broken good they are. And they will say anything to keep that status quo and keep their little min-maxed toys on top. And the devs are reluctant to change the status quo because keeping people quiet is easier than fixing things. That is the ugly, ugly elephant in the room.

The same people who argue that Scrappers and Brutes and how they relate to Tankers are fine are the same ones bragging about soloing TFs and killing pylons in under four minutes. Their bias is blatant and it disgusts me. I've put as much if not more time and work into my Tankers as they put into their Brute/Scrapper, but the difference is, Tankers hit a wall with the damage cap, a wall those people dance all over with their brokenly tough 'damage dealers'.

My Tankers deserve to be as awesome offensively as anyone's unkillable Incarnate Brute or Scrapper and I damn well intend to rock the boat and make noise until the devs allow him and all Tankers the same freedom and room to grow. And if you don't like it, tough.


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I don't think they would eclipse Brutes. A Brute at his 750% damage cap would still be doing considerably more damage than the Tanker. Which I say is a problem as long as Brutes keep their 90% resistance caps.

And it wouldn't eclipse Scrappers any more than Brutes do or don't now. A Scrapper at 500% damage buff would still trump a Tanker at 500% thanks to Criticals.


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Yes, this is what is being ignored.

The base values for Brutes and Scrappers may be lower, but when you've got them capping their Defenses and walking around with Destiny-level self buffs and team buffs that take them WAY ABOVE their base values, that narrows the survivability gap considerably; it pushes them further above the immortality line for most content where more survivability doesn't really matter. But the damage gap and low Tanker damage cap remains.

This is what Deus and Claws refuse to get.

Um no. The last thing Tankers need is more taunting capability.


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And Scrappers and Brutes were NOT designed to solo task forces and Pylons. To do THEIR intended jobs, they don't need the base resistances they do get; throw a couple bubbles on a Scrapper and their secondary becomes largely irrelevant. If they're letting the Tanker take the damage, all they need is to survive the AoE. They get way more than they need and I think they're too tough for the damage they get, especially in the case of Brutes. Incarnates underscores this. The Incarnate system is allowing Brutes and Scrappers to get WAY ABOVE the immortality line but Tankers are quickly hitting the wall for damage. That is a double standard.

My Brutes and Scrappers have no problem with this. Thank you team buffs. Perhaps you need to play better. Eat some purple inspirations. He wont be hitting you at all.

Unless both are ABOVE the immortality line for the incoming damage, which is getting easier and easier for more and more Brutes and Scrappers in an ever-growing percentage of the game's content, thanks to the Incarnate system.

No one has to hold aggro as well. Ever.


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Khelds?



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Oh, I'm quite aware how player perception works. Stalkers are a living example. But, Tanker caps versus Brutes caps and how the Incarnate system is affecting things is something tangible I can point to.

How long has Energy Aura been a "laughing stock" as a defensive set for most? Yet after all that time, and even after getting some buffs in i13, it's getting more work done on it. Just because something goes a long time without any dev attention, doesn't mean it wont get some.

The melee AT situation is brutal to say the least. I can understand them not wanting to upset the cart. But they're going to have to. And I'm not going to stop harping on them about it until they do.

The devs wouldn't admit that Tankers took a population hit due to side switching or the Incarnate system. Even if they did, they'd deny it's a problem. They'd rather maintain a stable, yet unfair and unfun, status quo than rock the boat and risk a thousand angry Scrapper and Brute enthusiasts going after them. There's nothing new in that; shafting Tankers for the sake of Scrappers and then Brutes has been standard operating procedure for as long as I've been around.


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The difference there is that Scrappers get 75% damage resistance caps and Brutes get 90%, like Tankers. That generally makes more of a tangible difference in toughness/survivability when buffed between Scrappers and Brutes and than is likely between Brutes and Tankers.


[EDIT] Checked and fixed Scrapper cap for 75%

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The problem is that this is about potential. Some Tankers, like Shield/SS, hit their damage cap already. No amount of damage bonus will improve them.

Solo, most Brutes do way more damage than a Tanker can possibly do, and they're not exactly dieing constantly from not being as tough. They get even tougher with the Incarnate system. As they grow more powerful, Brutes catch up to Tanker survivability for all practical purposes, but Brute damage remains as far out front, and always will because the Tanker will hit their damage cap.

Unless they raise Tanker damage caps, rather than a damage buff, you'd need something that circumvents the damage cap, like Scrapper Criticals and damage procs. That's bonus damage, but not a damage bonus.

On a team, Scrappers and Brutes are are buffed and healed by teammates and protected by Tankers if they're near one. Why should they be just as safe as a Tanker whenever they choose, but still do way more damage no matter what?


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They don't give up much. I don't see Brutes and Scrappers dropping dead left and right. They solo better than anyone, and on teams they are buffed out the whazoo.

When you add Barrier and Rebirth Destiny into the mix, those lower base values suddenly don't mean as much. When you introduce team buffs, they mean even less. It becomes about caps, and Brutes get the same resistance cap as Tankers.

On a Tanker, you don't need the Incarnate system to hit your max offense. A single Kin can do it. SS get very close just on their own.

You're arguing that it's OK for Brutes to have much higher damage and damage caps than Tankers, but the same resistance caps, and slightly lower HP caps. It's not OK.
Can you even tell me where the HP cap difference would be noticeable? On a trial where there's already so much team buffs and heals flying around?

It's not OK for Tankers to have low damage and low damage caps when Brutes and Scrappers can be built, healed or buffed so much, either by teams or the Incarnate system, so that their lower survivability doesn't affect them while Tankers are up against the offense cap that's a lot closer for them.

When all is said and done, a Brute buffed to his limits, by any means, is superior to a Tanker buffed to his limits. That isn't right.
I'd even wager a Scrapper buffed to his limits is still superior to a Tanker at his limits for almost anything in the game. That also isn't right.
The more power we're given on our own and on teams via the Incarnate system, the more this becomes a problem. The disparity is only going to get worse the higher Brutes and Scrappers are allowed to get over the immortality line



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You can have that with a Brute.

Of course, if you care about fairness or have vested interest in Tankers and super strong comic characters who aren't the Hulk, you may have the same problem as me.


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The devs vastly over estimated how compelling just being a walking distraction was. They had no business creating an AT with power sets like super strength and making them hit like little girls. All for the dubious privilege of being a decoy for the cooler ATs.

Worse was for them to admit that mistake, say they were creating a damage mechanic for Tankers, one that became Fury, but then waffle over it and then later give it to Brutes just to sell boxes of CoV.

And they don't have to. Tankers hold aggro too well. To the point it's trivial. If anything, Gauntlet is a hindrance in Trials where you need to and off aggro.


This is the bottom line for me:

I have a well built Tanker and an equally well built Brute. I went through the grind of fully IOing both and have finished Incarnating the Tanker to the current limits of the system.

The Tanker benefits very little from pursuing more survivability with the Incarnate system. But at the same time, he's already hitting his head on the damage cap for the AT.
I didn't specifically built this Tanker for a lot more damage. I took a 'balanced' approach to building both him and the Brute. But half way through the Incarnate system, already I'm up against the frigging brick wall of the cap.

The Brute on the other hand, has the freedom to go much further in either direction, offensively or defensively. He simply doesn't have the hard limitations force on him that the Tanker does. His theoretical survivability is a bit lower, but there's NOTHING in the game where that little bit less matters. Even if there was, it'd be a tiny tiny percent. When all is said and done, a Brute pushing his limits BLOWS AWAY a Tanker at their limits for just about ANYTHING in the game.

And that is the whole problem. My Tanker is now shelved because the way things are currently, I'm not allowed to reasonably grow him in power very much beyond where he's at now, but the Brute is just going to keep getting better and better, no matter what Incarnate stuff he has slotted. I look at my Tanker at his zenith hitting the cap and watch Brutes go way beyond and think "Well, this is it for a 'god-like' Tanker. So disappoint." No matter how much work I put in, the system is screwing the Tanker and favoring the Brute

That. Isn't. Right.



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Have Bruised enemies take bonus damage when hit by a Tanker that is X% of the attack.

Then fix the damage caps.



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Didn't happen when CoV launched? Brutes were THE most popular AT red side. Comparatively, Tankers were one of the least popular blue ATs.

Now, post-side switching, I see way more Brutes than Tankers, especially in trials. The last trial I was on had six Brutes, four Scrappers and one Tanker. It was dubbed Team Melee.

Will there ever be a point where there's ZERO Tankers? Unlikely. But that's not the argument.


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Depending on your build, a Tanker can be hitting their low damage cap before musculature.

All of which are also used by Scrappers and Brutes. They remain in the forefront of damage, and Destiny pushes them even higher above the immortality line rendering even less of the game a threat to them. The damage gap remains the same as before, but Brutes and Scrappers just keep getting tougher.

Let me put it another way:

The most a Tanker KO Blow can ever possibly hit for is 633.5
760.2 if we're generous and factor in Bruising.

A Brutes counterpart can hit for 1150.7

After everything is said and done, Destiny can make Brutes and Tankers functionally immortal in 98% of the content in the game, but the Brute will always hit like train and the Tanker is bumping his head on the cap even if he gears for damage.



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They also had/have "more" before Incarnates too. Incarnates just increases the disparity by raising Scrapper and Brutes survivability even higher while keeping the damage rift between them and Tankers mostly the same.


For a long time. Since they were singled out to pay a price that Scrappers get to dance around without compromise and since Fury (and their original intended role) was hijacked from them by Brutes.


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