Futurias

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In case anyone is wondering (aside from questions as to "why <x>!!", this was the most pressing question on my mind regarding the powers), the ever helpful _Castle_ confirmed to me that the PP pets function like controller pets - at least with regards to duration.

Again, to clarify, the pets last until you zone or die. That makes me very happy. I doubt they will be as buff as their NPC versions, but hey - free pets!

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And all the Dark Miasma users again wonder why Dark Servent still expires after 4 minutes...

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Er... um... no.

We took a simultaneous triple nerf to get containment as a lone buff. I don't think it's asking anything silly that if we lose some of the buff then we get back a little of the nerf.

Oh, and my force fields aren't all that threatening, thanks.

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No *everyone's* holding power took a triple nerf because they were that overpowered.

Controllers *currently* have the best holds (longest duration, criticals), buffing/debuffing that is almost invisibly less good than defenders, perma-pets and damage that can out perform tanks (falling in between tanks and scrappers. Oh, and the only "epic" power pool that grants squishies mezz protection.)

Exactly what part of a Controller is "bad"? I'm not seeing it.

Where as a Dominator has very good holds, perma pets and less damage (with an *attack* set, no less) than Controllers even with their innate.

And Defenders have the best buffs/debuffs... and really crappy damage. And a very non-proactive innate that doesn't amplify their damage at all. And we keep getting told that the developers are "happy" with the gimp machines.

As a long-time defender player, I am a bit bitter about this.

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No, I'm not saying repeal Containment, just change containment so that it is not as big a bonus.

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Do we get some of our control back? I'd make that trade in a second.

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Do you get to lose a significant portion of your buffing/debuffing ability? Then it would be a fair trade.

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You dont see controllers outdamaging dominators as a problem?

I dont consider controllers overpowered because they traded alot of their control for damage, controllers dont control nearly as well as they used to, but they do get close to defender damage.

At least there are some good defender sets. Except for plant/en I havent seen any great dominator sets.

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Actually I still feel that Controllers got too big a boost to damage. With the information that Controllers can use some secondaries better than Defenders their primaries, it's just being magnified.

No, I'm not saying repeal Containment, just change containment so that it is not as big a bonus.

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The only nuke you have is.. well.. the closest thing you can do is that nova-type power in the Psychic Assault set.

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That's *definitely* a nuke.

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No it isn't. I have Psychic Wail on my Def - that's a nuke. Psychic Shockwave recharges in good time, doesn't drain your End, does good but not insane damage, and doesn't do that 'three separate attacks' thing that nukes do.

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Color me surprised and shocked. I was sure that they were the same "basic" powersets from Defenders.

Why make blast sets without the nukes though? That seems pretty odd then.

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The only nuke you have is.. well.. the closest thing you can do is that nova-type power in the Psychic Assault set.

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That's *definitely* a nuke.

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But it isn't as strong.
From what I remember it doesn't suck your End dry.
The damage is High (I think) but it's not a real nuke.

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I thought they also got Dark Blast with Blackstar? And energy should have their "nuke". I'm not sure what the spines one is, but it might not be quite the same.

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For example, my /Traps Corruptor is Tech so would logically go with Black Scorpion, except that the web and shield (defense) powers don't provide anything I don't already have except for a hold and a pet. I already have defenses and immobilizes on my own. I might as well break theme and go with Scirroco as Power Sink and Charged Armor (a resistance power) sound far more useful.


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As if +def didn't stack!

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I'd take +res over a bit of extra defense anyday.

Also like I need yet another immobilize.

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The tech forcefield from Scorpion is looking really nice to stack on my Robot/FF mastermind!

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The only nuke you have is.. well.. the closest thing you can do is that nova-type power in the Psychic Assault set.

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That's *definitely* a nuke.

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So Domination, AOE hold then nuke wouldn't be a viable post-38 tactic? Heck, pop a *couple* of reds for maximage damage.

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Dominators don't have a nuke.

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Their level 38 powers aren't a nuke? I could have sworn they were almost identical to Defender secondaries in that manner. It's an AT that I've only played lightly though.

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Spoken as someone who doesn't play Dominators.


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I have a Mind/Energy Dom, actually. I was impressing guys that were 30th+ level with my character that I walked to St. Martial solo.

Haven't even bothered to get more than one attack on that character.

{secondary mistake! Doh!}

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Well, at least you spelled out why you don't like them.(unlike the person I initially responded to) I can respect that. Why don't we both wait for the hard numbers and then rejoin this topic, ok?

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Dont think the numbers are going to help.

The base power choices are poor.

Dominators so desperatly need a build up its not even funny. Yet they give them end recoveries, they dont need end recoveries they need damage enhancers.

The powers themselves are wrong, the numbers wont help it.

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Um? They already have their click domination power that boosts damage and mezzing? Why do they need another damage boost?

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Dominator damage is already lower than controller damage post 35 or so, the only hope for bringing it back in line was a damage booster.

the only time dom's outdamage controllers is when Domination is active but over the course of a mission controllers run higher over time if they took a damage boosting secondary. Rad/emp/Kin and a pet primary.

Dom's needed something really impressive to make up for it.

Also lets remember villians are locked heros arent.

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So Domination, AOE hold then nuke wouldn't be a viable post-38 tactic? Heck, pop a *couple* of reds for maximage damage.

I'm almost positive that the reason there isn't an "extra" damage boost power is because of this innate. Yes, over time Dominators do less damage than Controllers, but that's because Controllers are *broken* this way.

The low damage AT *easily* outdoes Defender. Defenders really are the red-headed stepchildren of the CoH ATs.

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Well, at least you spelled out why you don't like them.(unlike the person I initially responded to) I can respect that. Why don't we both wait for the hard numbers and then rejoin this topic, ok?

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Dont think the numbers are going to help.

The base power choices are poor.

Dominators so desperatly need a build up its not even funny. Yet they give them end recoveries, they dont need end recoveries they need damage enhancers.

The powers themselves are wrong, the numbers wont help it.

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Um? They already have their click domination power that boosts damage and mezzing? Why do they need another damage boost?

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So the the complete numeric stats of all the new powers will be available because the powers cant be respeced out.

I ponder though, what will happen once they find out X power is overpowered, either on it's own or combined with another power, and then decide to nerf either, after half the population took this power precisely because of the greatness of it or the greatness of it coupled with that other power...

Because you KNOW it WILL happen sooner or later.

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You could still respec out of the power if it end up being "useless" (which I find to be highly unlikely.) But people that take powers because they are abusable get little sympathy from me.

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Well, those who said the Patron Powers would have to be very, very similar across the Patrons weren't wrong. They seem to follow enough of a set pattern that no one pool is outstandingly different from any other. For example:

Brutes get: Ranged single-target attack, AoE Immob, ranged AoE damage, Pet.

Doms get: Attack OR End buff, Armour, ranged AoE damage, pet.

This isn't a criticism.

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Other than Stalkers getting a snipe instead of a buff and the inclusion of pets for every single non-mastermind AT, about where I expected it to be.

When do the Heric Patron Powers with pets come in?

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Well, if this is postponed yet again and especially because of this PPP nonsense, I'm going to lose my temper again. I hope I can contain myself and not post a childish rant this time heh.

As for the 'not after level 40 to switch': if true, they had better make it absolutely clear BEFORE we level up. I've been planning on at least 2 switches---waiting and waiting and waiting.

Why won't they spill the info on all this? It's becoming tiresome having to gripe over vague tidbits of info. Bah.

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They have never stated when the crossover thing was going in. Just too many people (myself included) want it sooner rather than later. I've got a Warshade that I want to go rogue, dang it.

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Hmm. The Lady in the Lake is very important to the Excaliber and Arthurian mythos, so it's pretty valid, IMO.

Even if you knew the Lady of the Lake existed, if you saw King Arthur with Excalibur how would you know she gave him the sword?

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Because I'd been told and I'd heard that this mythical woman of great magical power gave it to him?

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OK, seriously. Lets compare two situations.

You live in late-Roman Britain and you see a guy in the woods, with a commanding aspect, mowing down attackers with a seemingly unstoppable sword. (For the sake of argument, since Arthur himself was a fairly epic personage, lets assume he's hard to recognize - no crown and muddied crest.)

You live in the Rogue Isles and you see a guy you've never seen before emit spectral sharks from his hands.

In the first case do you think "wow, that guy must have gotten that sword from the Lady off the Lake!" I don't think so. I think you associate the sword with the warrior, and maybe use that connection to realize that this is your king.

In the second case, I think anyone who knows anything about Sharkhead Isle is going to wonder if that has anything to do with Mako. More suggestively, eventually he's going to see someone else use that power.

Pehaps I'm mistaken, but I don't remember Arthur or his knights telling folks that the sword was issued by the Lady of the Lake. In contrast, I find it perfectly reasonable to imagine that eventually one of those Spirit Shark users will let on that it's a power obtained through Mako's patronage, forever marking anyone who hears about that as someone with that affiliation.

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Actually, the lady of the lake was more famous (as a witch and all-around scary person) before Arthur, she just happened to be the generation from before that gave him his sword.

(Technically, the Arthurian legend is an incredible mutt of many previous legends that different locals added. Lancelot was added by some people in the French area, and the three witches were in the same vein. But the witches were famous in and of themselves before Arthur, they just didn't drive the Romans off with their armies.)

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Hmm. The Lady in the Lake is very important to the Excaliber and Arthurian mythos, so it's pretty valid, IMO.

Even if you knew the Lady of the Lake existed, if you saw King Arthur with Excalibur how would you know she gave him the sword?

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Because I'd been told and I'd heard that this mythical woman of great magical power gave it to him?

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King Arthur had Excalibur on loan from the Lady of the Lake but that didn't make her the star of the show...?

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How many people associate the sword with the Lady? The thematic ideal of something like this has a life of its own, separate from the facts of the matter. The thematic ideal of Excalibur (a completely unique item as far as the legend tells us) has evolved such that it is associated with Arthur.

On the other hand, every Tom, Dick, and Destroyer associated with Captain Mako will have Spirit Sharks (unless the power sucks). The imagery of someone with that power will be "that's an associate of Mako's". This is reinforced not only by the fact that it will look like it's a "Mako power", but by the fact that anyone else who chooses the same affiliation will probably have that same power. By making a power with an association the common element, the characters with the power become less important to the imagery and the unifying element becomes Mako instead.

Compare this with hero EPPs. Anyone of a given AT might have a given EPP, and it might be readily recognized when used, but it has no clear association. It is easy to simply assume that the hero mastered/obtained/learened a new trick, lending credence to the notion of the hero as a self-contained entity. If anyone wants their backstory to be that they were "given" their EPPs or have them through a relationship with an Entity or a more mighty hero, they are free to do so. It's not required. PPP's require that relationship.

There was nothing about Excalibur that lent to an association with the Lady, and there was no other Excalibur floating around for people to compare and think "I wonder if those two swords are related."

Similarly, nearly every Stone Armor character probably gets Granite Armor, there is no common association to an external entity tied to that. Everyone knows Granite Armor when they see it. If Granite Armor was a power firmly associated with some patron character, everyone would immediately associate anyone using it with that (story) character.

Finally, the general populace did not meaningfully knew about the Lady and her issuance of Excalibur into Arthur's trust. Unlike this, everyone on the Rogue Isles knows about Recluse's lieutenants, and would likely immediately recognize any power that clearly suggests their influence. ("Spirit Sharks.")

So I think your analogy with Excalibur lacks strength.

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Hmm. The Lady in the Lake is very important to the Excaliber and Arthurian mythos, so it's pretty valid, IMO.

It might not be for you, but that's is personal preference.

I wonder if this is to foster some factionalism (for PvP and PvE content conflict) that might arise in the future?

Lord Recluse "disappears" in the future and his lackeys try to take over as head honcho?

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Considering we haven't played through the 40+ game and mayhem missions, this seems to be a disservice to the developers without seeing the upper end content.

I somehow doubt we are "just" flunkies up at the high end. Heck, we've had that whole destined thing going on since *level 1*.

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Not really. My 35 Blaster is currently investigating the excursion into our realm of an ancient demon who strikes fear even into the black hearts of the Circle of Thorns and threatens to engulf Paragon City.

My 36 Brute just saved a john and some [Censored] from carnie extortion.

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I think I remember that arc a little differently. Of course, I see it as being a high-powered enforcer on retainer being paid *lots* of cash to go in a bust up someone elses racket so that my current boss can muscle into a territory.

Hmm. Sounds like high level mob tactics and pretty villainous to me.

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Both story arcs. Both established characters. One is a hired thug and the other is a hero. Now let's extrapolate that to the 40s with what we know. We know that the ancillary pool mechanic from City of Heroes is being replaced with this patron pool. We know in order to get the pool you MUST ally yourself with a Patron. Patron implies a subservient position. The choice is permanent.

We also know about Grandville the 40-50 zone for villains. Grandville is Lord Recluse's seat of power. All that occurs there is under his thumb. PC villains just take their place at the bottom of the zone and have to claw their ways to the top so that they might be allowed to lick Lord Recluse's boot.

Fun.

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Or that you have gained such an amount of power that Lord Recluse is trying to subborn you into his organization because you are a *THREAT* and threats must be dealt with in someway.

My villain has nearly destroyed the isles a few times almost accidentally. As I want to keep them around as a base of operation, I've deigned to work with that silly demon hunter.

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Considering we haven't played through the 40+ game and mayhem missions, this seems to be a disservice to the developers without seeing the upper end content.

I somehow doubt we are "just" flunkies up at the high end. Heck, we've had that whole destined thing going on since *level 1*.

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Ah, but here's the rub! "No one has to do Patron Arcs."

Sure, we might get stories that are the villainous equivalent of what we get in CoH's 40+ game. We might feel truly super and villainous, and feel equivalent to any of the named villains.

But if we want the equivalent of EPPs we have to be patronized. Oh, and the choice is permanent.

Hero: Hit 41, choose an EPP and carry on. Don't like it later? Respec.

Villain: Hit 41, need to run a story arc, become permanently associated with one of Recluse's subordinates, and never be able to change the choice.

And I'll tell you, I'll be truly pissed if they come and add an equivalent restriction to the heroes. That is not the solution I am looking for.

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Um, Uberguy?

Exactly what did that have to do with what I was responding to?

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To add on to Click Beetle...

In CoH and CoV, you aint Superman. You aint Wolverine. You aint Captain America. You aint Doctor Doom. You aint Lex Luther.

You're Joe Scrub Hero/Villain. You're in a whole freaking CITY of heroes and villains. You're just not that special.

Well, except me, of course.

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That's true up to around level 35. After that, in CoH your character starts dealing with grave threats to the City, the world and the multiverse. In that way it is much superior to CoV. Saving [Censored] because I'm paid doesn't do much to make me feel like a villain.

The 40s in CoH and the final arcs of 35-40 are near perfection. You truly feel heroic in every sense of the word. You don't play second fiddle to Ms. Liberty, you become her equal. As she told me when I dinged 50, she didn't have anything more to teach. Of course AV/Hero status is a mechanic intended to create challenging content, but many players by level 50 are strong, powerful characters and should be treated like it.

In City of Villains, we're being relegated to be lackeys of the lackeys. How fun.

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Considering we haven't played through the 40+ game and mayhem missions, this seems to be a disservice to the developers without seeing the upper end content.

I somehow doubt we are "just" flunkies up at the high end. Heck, we've had that whole destined thing going on since *level 1*.

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You're Joe Scrub Hero/Villain. You're in a whole freaking CITY of heroes and villains. You're just not that special.

That's the problem.

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2) Don't let the PCs play "second fiddle" to NPCs:

Second only to having their characters taken prisoner, players hate having their characters play "second fiddle" to NPCs -- or even worse, having NPCs rescue them when they're in trouble. The PCs are the focus of the story and the campaign; they shouldn't be directly overshadowed by NPCs. This is not to say the PCs have to be the most powerful characters in the world. You can have NPCs more powerful than the PCs, even much more powerful. Such NPCs can act as sources of information for the PCs, or as inspiration to show them what they're capable of becoming. Just don't rub the PCs' noses in their inferiority, or have the NPCs outdo them at every turn. Keep the use of NPCs who are more powerful than the PCs to a minimum.


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-- Champions, 5th Edition, #2 on the list of ways to ruin your campaign

It's certainly true that the demands of an MMO differ from those of a tabletop RPG campaign. It's a lot harder to make thousands of players the center of the story than just the six guys across the table.

And yet, CoH did a fair job of that, at least up until now. The signature characters were kept out of the spotlight. Their main function has been to delegate tasks to the PCs. You actually get to save Statesman at one point. Your Contacts are all people who need your help. No individual player is the center of the story, but the players in the aggregate sense are -- they are the new generation of heroes society is depending upon in the wake of the Rikti War.

CoV is a different story. Villain Contacts are employers -- a completely different dynamic. The newspaper offers nothing but petty thefts and turf wars against other villain groups. (Mayhem Missions may be a step in the right direction here.) You only get to "save" Ghost Widow from an inconvenience. Patron Powers and the content associated with them are going to have the signature villains cast a very long shadow over the PCs. Villain PCs are much more subordinate to the narrative than hero PCs already, and can expect to be more so in I7.

Things are not really moving in the right direction here. The monthly comic was changed from centering on characters the players could identify with (poorly written though they were) to the signature heroes. Sidekicks of the signature characters were accorded AV status, only rescinded after an outcry. The new content appears to be largely geared towards impressing upon the players that their characters are bit players. If this is the shape of things to come, the players have every right to be concerned, and they should start expressing it now.

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No, you started out as a lowly lackey working up into epic status.

It's a small steps up there, it's not "I am Victor Von Doom!" right off the bat.

Technically, Doom started out as a lowly Gypsy and was a super-villain for *years* before he attempted to take his revenge against Reed Richards as a epic arch-villain.

We are just playing through that. I might have worked my way up the lacky chain, but that's because my characters started out as super-powered persons that were thrown in jail and had to be broken out. The guys who broke me out say I might be a destined one?

Hmm. Maybe I am. Time to show the world true villainy... well as soon as I steal/bribe/make my powers into a true world class threat that can beat down Statesman!

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It also bears mentioning that Positron's reasoning to include hard numbers,

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There is currently no way for us to let you re-spec out of them and into a different one.

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could also be applied to the primary and secondary powersets very, very easily. You can't respec out of them. They're far more of an influence on the game than PPPs. Why is it fine for someone to make an uninformed decision about those? Especially since you don't actually see everything in the sets until 38? (Though it would likely take longer and involve several respecs. Not many people take all of their primary and secondary sets.)

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Quite. And most changes are going to happen either just before you get you PPPs or at 50, where it is going to have limited impact, even if they were going to really bork the balance of the powers (which I don't think they are. The APPs are very well balanced and I'd be happy with any of them, but I've stuck with the one I picked because it's what my characters *would* get.)

Some people will need absolute numbers and figuring out which twinkage is best, but each PPP (and patron) is supposedly relatively as good as the others.

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It's really not uncommon for villains to get empowered or enhanced by other villains in comics, though, especially villains of the footsoldier variety. The Grizzly gets his suit worked on by the Tinkerer. The Wrecker's crowbar was upgraded by Loki. Baron Mordo calls on Dormammu for extra power. It's pretty standard comic stuff.

I can see how one'd run into concept trouble if one wrote oneself as the UNFLINCHING DESTROYER OF UNIVERSES AND EMPEROR OF EIGHT DIMENSIONS WHO BOWS TO NO MAN or whatnot, but it seems to me a good author works with the setting, not overrides it. If one writes a guy who'd never work for Arachnos in a game where everyone works for Arachnos, that's fine and one's decision to do, but I'm not sure it's Cryptic's problem. Same for patrons.

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This is exactly true. I've seen some truly inspired backgrounds that work *within* the confines of "low leve villain is busted out of the zig by Arachnos".

There's still quite a bit of wiggle room for your background and hitting 50 isn't the end of your story, it's just the end of the story co-written by you and Cryptic.

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I believe, if they are pernament, then they need to tell us
about the powers BEFORE we even get there. This way we
can atleast make our power choices, since there are some
who plan their character out at level 1-50.

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Luckily for you, they will be hard numbers and information posted about the different PPPs *before* you can take your patron arc.