Futurias
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Quote:No, it's isn't getting proliferated to controller/dominators because it's a hybrid set that has almost as much control (though not as hard) with almost as much buff/debuff as any other Defender primary.Originally Posted by LordXenite
It's always been true.
EDIT :: To demonstrate how powerful Dark Miasma is, I would like to suggest that the reason DM has not been proliferated for Controllers is that they'd simply be too powerful with a Control power-set on top of all the tools in Dark Miasma.
The devs took one look at Illusion/Dark and knew it would be very, very broken. (And then made sure there was an NPC that does have it and is pretty broken.) -
But all it takes to remove that -40% -RES is to step away or around a corner. Not even anywhere near the PITA that a squishie has of being stuck and losing all their protection and not being able to do anything.
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Quote:Saying 'take dwarf for mezz protection' ignores the fact that Kheldians have a non-dwarf mezz protection.Originally Posted by LordXenite
You're supposed to play the game using your brains and instincts. Not everything should be attacked by rushing in and grabbing all the aggro with Dawn Strike and/or Solar Flare, are you deliberately trying to get yourself killed?
The idea behind Kheldians isn't about a consistent AT, but rather a shapeshifter AT, that is Jack of All Trades, Master of None but oft better than a Master of One. The idea behind this is that you're supposed to utilize your powers in ways that will effectively defeat your enemies while keeping you safe. I dare say that a Human-only Kheldian is the middle line on that safety/prowess curve which means its playstyle requires a more cautious execution than a TriForm or a Dwarf-centric playstyle.
Sure, they appear to be Scrapperish and can be effectively played as such in some circumstances. However, if you choose to ignore powers like Pulsar, and never use Solar Flare to knock enemies away from you, and always focus on your two melee attacks and Dawn Star, expect to gain more aggro than you're equipped to handle.
From your posts it seems to me that you insist on engaging enemies in melee range while utilizing only a 1/3rd of what your AT offers, and expect results that only Scrappers/Tankers should get while utilizing the full capabilities of their AT/power-set combination.
I never saw any promise or explanation from the Devs claiming a Human-only PB can or should be played like a Scrapper. Instead, I see power-synergies and attack patterns that involve executing ranged and melee powers together. If you choose to ignore this and are having problems, maybe you should re-consider your strategies before assuming something wrong with PB's?
In any case, since both Kheldians have ways of obtaining mez-protection that are unavailable to other "squishies", I vote to remove Kheldians from the "mez protection for all" discussion. Not taking Dwarf form at Lv20 because you want to be Human-only should not be a reason to add mez protection to a Kheldian's human-form, but that's a totally different discussion for a totally different thread.
It doesn't work correctly and it's sub-performing right now, but the team-link bonus is definitely there.
Unfortunately, the developers seem to have fallen into that concept trap without either removing the old version or replacing it too. -
Yes, there were specific 'hero' level missions that I could not win without going and getting a breakfree. I remember flace-planting about four times against a down-graded Malta gunslinger boss. The map had just place him in just the right position that there was no range and he and his support proceeded to gank me after he froze me.
And those sort of missions aren't that rare in the high levels where you run into a 'downgraded' boss that nearly perma-holds you. -
Quote:So I'm not supposed to use my largest melee AOE attack because I have to hover-kite everything?Originally Posted by LordXenite
Sorry to be so late to the party and respond to this after so many posts, but, You were the one who mentioned more than one Controller, and when you've got two Controllers, they can work together to lock stuff up faster then you should rush into melee-range for. That's what I meant by strategy.
It's not the Dev's fault that you choose to go to melee when you could hover/blast from range, and close to melee when stuff is locked-down, Dominators do it all the time, and since you do have access to Dwarf form but chose to exclude it, that's one decision you have to live with.
Alternatively, if one of your Controllers has an AoE-stun power, you could help them by sneaking into melee and using Pulsar together with the Controller and his/her AoE stun to lock down everything around you, including Bosses.
These tactics work well for an All Kheldian Team, without force-multiplication and solid self-sufficient crowd control unless people are working together... so essentially, with all due respect, you do seem to be playing in ways that emphasize your weaknesses rather than display the strengths of the AT/power combination available to your team.
The developers were well and truly inconsistent with Peacebringers. They gave them a lot of great melee powers, decent shields and almost usable mezz protection in human form.
IMO, all 'human-form' kheldians need to play perfectly fine is a +2 mag protection to holds and stuns in a couple of their toggles.
On a normal team with one or two controllers, they would be at that functional level for 'melee centric' characters of about at least 4 mag. But would not be able to grab the aggro of two bosses that mezz well.
They actually be very 'scrapper-ish' which if you look at most of the powers (attacks and such) actually looks right.
Their ranged damage is still very, very sub-par compared to anyone that does range (even defenders). -
Quote:I have a level 50 Psi/Psi blaster that I just leveled up about 4 months ago, thanks.Originally Posted by PennyPA
Well, this shows me you never played a blaster. Please don't say you have otherwise you would know you can still attack with DEFv2.0. Yes, even mezzed, I am still on top of my game and use the other tools in the game to win. If I, on the rare occassion, run into bad luck and die, then what? NOTHING. It's a game remember.
And again, please show me this missing business. If you are having issues, I suggest 3 Dam/3 Acc slotting, which leaves the 5% always a chance (that's 1 in 20).
Again, I have a number of so-called squishies that have no mezz protection and solo just fine "at the top of my game." -
Quote:If you miss on your alpha-strike, your mezzer is not dead... and you just got yourself 'statue-itis' and soon to be 'dead-itis.'Originally Posted by PennyPA
Okay, I miss. Big deal. I have a blaster at 50. I keep using my attacks. A blaster has an inherent that lets you. I have taken on mezzers in all kinds of forms before. And guess what...I dinged 50 still.
You are going to hit way more often than you miss - would you like to deny that?
You go from 'top of my game' to ground-sucking PDQ.
On a full team while I'm in melee? Pretty normal actually. No matter what Controllers think or wish, their days of solo locking down full teams is a mere memory.Quote:Originally Posted by LordXenite
If you're playing a Human-only PB with more than one Controller, and you're getting mezzed, I dare say either you or the Controller aren't paying attention to what the other is doing. Cooperation is key in team-play, that's what I always thought...
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Quote:And hope you don't miss.Originally Posted by PennyPA
I am with Clouded here. Just why did you open with an immobilize that allows the mobs to still attack?
You have a snipe, Aim, and BU, well before Level 30 when Rikti spawn. I have a blaster to at 50 and take out the mezzer first with my most powerful ranged attacks then mop up minions afterwards. I would never use my Level 1 power on mezzers as an opener.
Seems things got noisy while I was at work.
I do find it odd that people are still shouting/ranting that any level of mezz protection is basically god-mode, even though I know that low level (3-5pts) is not. It's nice, but 3pts can be overcome.
Playing my human-form Peacebringer on teams proved that to me. 1 to 2 controllers is crap. 3 is useful. 4+ is generally superfluous. -
Quote:Rikti and some Nemesis, actually. I'm sure there is more. On my Tri-former, I'm very, very tempted to got out and get a -KB enhancement right now. It nearly got me killed several times versus a Elite Boss "Nemesis?"Originally Posted by Dispari
I'm inbetween you two. I doubt that they'd be ignored OR super-highly-desired.
Knockback IOs right now are a good baseline. But stuns and holds are pretty rare by comparison. An IO that gives you protection to stuns which you'll really only face, well... at high levels, against Malta basically, wouldn't be stupidly high in demand. It would be about average, I'd expect.
Some people would buy them, some people would ignore them like they do with knockback IOs. Depends on the person's level of want. But would they become mandatory/omgrare/gottahaveit? Very doubtful.
And considering how many times I was stunned or held in human/nova form, I'd have been all over -Hold and -Stun enhancements.
Now that is a question. Why didn't they actually make -Hold and -Stun enhancements like Karma, Steadfast and Zephyr?
It couldn't be because of how hard it was to design them. -
Quote:I seriously doubt that if the Developers added +4 Mag protection in some of the least wanted sets that they wouldn't become some of the most highly desired sets for the squishies.Originally Posted by PennyPA
And they would still be least wanted because they are NOT NEEDED.
Like so many in this thread have stated, this game is already easy enough and the so-called squishies have all the tools and options to deal with mobs to defeat them.
This thread has really gone to a ridiculous point now.
Please, do keep screaming that the sky is green and the moon is made of cheese. It's rather humorous. -
Heh. That would be a way to ramp up the desire for Set IOs no one wants. Add +4 Mag protection to either stun or hold. Make sure its in the least wanted ranged attack or hold.
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Quote:"Dozen of different methods?"Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Yes, he is. He's been shown a dozen different methods of dealing with mezzing enemies that don't include inspirations, yet he puts his fingers in his ears and screams lalala because he wants everyone else to play his way.
I've heard 'shut up and team.' 'Depend on inspirations' and 'Pre-emptive mezzing'.
I've even refuted some of them. Using inspirations heavily to bypass or overcome the issue is, as I've noted, usually an indication of an actual issue. Not a solution.
I even turned the question on its head (removing Mezz protection solo) and got very incoherent responses. All the way from 'they have to have it to function' and 'no one needs mezz protection to solo really.'
Never did get a good response if it was 'fair' for squishies to not have mezz protection, why shouldn't it be 'fair' for non-squishies to have the same level of challenge.
That pretty much boiled down to 'how dare you challenge my scrapper the same way that stupid defenders are challenged!' And that they've always had it, so don't you dare change it. -
I could also continue to beat my forehead against at wall because that's the only way that some people can knock. That doesn't mean that should be the preferred way. :/
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Quote:This is a game. With forums and feeback that enables changes.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And because 'Life is this way. Tough shite' is hard to understand.
No, this is not 'life is this way.' -
Quote:Ooh! Nice context quote!Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
Scrappers already fight threatless mobs. They make 90% of the content trivial. Should they be adjusted? I personally dont think so, but YMMV.
Will you be Hero or hero support? You choose. -
Castle, I think.
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Quote:Yes, because "Learn to play my way" is such an effective manner of discourse. :/Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I give up. I tried, but I have my limits for dealing with people who refuse to ever learn or adapt. Welcome to ignore.
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So imagine my surprise when I try to start up a Manticore TF and find out that with the recent patch to stop people exploiting -1s, that you have level 40 Paragon Protector Elites.
Aren't those a level 40-54 mob only?
They shouldn't be anywhere near a level 30-35 Task Force! -
Quote:Actually, there are 'perfect' (and perfectly boring, repetitious and silly) tactics to deal with these threats quite high up.Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Futurias, I believe I said something to this effect earlier in this thread, but I feel it bears repeating. I also want to be clear, I am saying this in good faith. If you are really, seriously having trouble dealing with mezzing enemies solo on base difficulty, then the answer is to take a long, hard look at your own tactics and how you use your powers. That would be much more productive than calling for a wholesale change to entire AT's.
Having trouble with the occasional solo gunslinger boss (even downgraded to lieutenants?) Easy a cake. Stop your mission, fill up on half-purple half-break-frees.
It's both easy and incredibly silly. Inspirations are designed to help your character in tough situations, not be a crutch.
If it removes 80% of the silly annoying mezzing, I'd be all for it. And considering Mag 3 protection really would be to stop Minion and Lt. mezzing every other mob, not stacking boss or even stacking Lt. mezzing.Quote:Originally Posted by Fulmens
I may have sensed hostility where none was intended, and responded with hostility. Let me rephrase.
Your argument seems to work like this:
There are two types of people: those who sometimes have problems on heroic, and those who beat +4/+8 settings. Obviously there aren't very many people who beat +4/+8, so their experiences are not relevant to the vast majority of people. Clearly, all your opponents are max-difficulty-beaters so you don't actually have to refute their arguments.
The problem here is that we ARE talking about how difficult the game, and certain enemies within it, are. I don't know, and I am pretty sure you don't know either, how good the "middle of the bell curve" players are. I think that high level content should be challenging in some way; the introduction of radio missions which let you skate by on Council and Thorns annoyed (and annoys) me. Do I think some of the mez is over the top? I do. Do I think the solution is to trivialize 80% of the mez in the game? I do not.
That again states that having 3 points of mezz protection is all anyone ever needs.Quote:Originally Posted by Gilia
This thread is still going on?
Fulmens had the answer right there, though it come up in some form a few times.
CoH is a team-based game. Different ATs offer different things. No AT is totally immune to Mez, nor is any totally susceptible to it. If you can't handle it, play something easier, play with a team, or get better.
If any of my blasters had mez protection there'd be absolutely no reason to play anything else for me. All the damage, none of the draw back? MMm, yeah then I probably wouldn't play at all. Are you TRYING to ruin the game for ME?
That is a patently false statement. Otherwise every single tanker, scrapper, brute and stalker would only have that much.
When in all actuality, they usually have at least triple that (at 50th level.)
Heck, I even stated that if they gave a little mezz protection at the bottom (ie. squishies that have none now) they could actually increase some of the effects of mezzing without crushing the squishies and even make things slightly challenging for people that have high amounts.
But they can't do that until the bottom end is not Zero Mag. It would just make some enemies even worse for squishies to fight. -
Wow, this turned ugly suddenly.
Strange, I don't think I ever said that I felt I held anyone in contempt.
But it's pretty obvious you do because I sometimes have problems on 'heroic' settings. -
That's the thing... we mention 'people have problems at times' and we get rebutted with 'but I heard this Defender plays on +4/x8, so therefore they can't be broken.'
Then they forget to mention that it's the kind of person that tries (and sometimes succeeds at things that are supposed to be impossible) like solo Master of ITF. -
Because it only takes a Mag 1 stun on a minion to turn you super hero into a ground-sucking stupor hero?
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Who ever said that Squishies would get it before scrappers?
In my own mind, I'd been thinking of adding it their epic armor toggles or something.
Kheldian might get theirs earlier (it's hard to see where to add it to any existing power) and I've always liked the idea of splitting up their protection on the 3 different toggles (putting stun and hold in two different toggles.) -
Quote:My oldest characters are a tank and a defender, but I have pretty much one of everything and played most to at least the 30s excepting a controller and dominator.Originally Posted by GarfieldZ
This for the uber vets! I class these as players who have like a 48 month badge and higher!
for these uber vets, i have 3 question! what toons have you been playing for all this time? have you played one from when you started till now? whats your favourite build?
I tend to enjoy playing melee more these days. Less aggravation on the mezzing side. -
Quote:Originally Posted by LordXenite
Spiffy, hold these marshmallows for me will'ya?
Of course mez protection would be good for squishies, however in the current form this game is in, it would be good for squishies just about as good as a chocolate based diet.
I'd disagree with that. But for some reason, everyone quotes me as giving enough mezz that it can not be overcome (when I've actually advocated far less.)
And... we get people ignoring many, many instances of people saying there is problems soloing normal content. Even downgraded bosses are still a PITA with their mezzing.Quote:Originally Posted by LordXenite
Sure, if the Devs will ever decide to replace CoH's engine, I think they'd probably go for something like that... and then, even squishies will get some sort of mez protection.
About this thread and its ilk, it always seems ironic to me that when you get to the bottom of things in these threads, the people for mez protection for squishies are basically requesting it for the purposes of soloing, and usually it's not soloing normal-difficulty content that is the issue. Just saying...