Flux_Vector

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If you're using your ultimate blast, you aren't doing all that. You're spending all your endurance, getting totally detoggled, and taking on several seconds of no or much-reduced end recovery on an attack that on its unbuffed own is lucky it's able to knock off +1 minions.

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Fulcrum Shift, Blackstar, Transference, (retoggle acrobatics if it dropped--it doesn't about half the time), continue with attacks, debuffs or heal. Downtime--maybe a second after Blackstar before I can hit transference, maybe no down time at all.

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For 1/6 of the primaries, and it's your primary that makes the nuke a workable tactic, not the nuke itself.

That's my point. Defenders don't just get their "defense/utility" from their primary. They get their offense potential from their primary too.

For a radiation, storm, or dark defender using the ultimate blast is a tactic with some serious drawbacks even though via your primary in combination with PBU or soul drain, you'll almost be able to do blaster damage with it.

For a forcefield or empathy defender there are fewer drawbacks even though you can't do as much damage as a rad can without another character's help.

For a kineticist there are practically no drawbacks at all and the ultimate blast can be a great weapon, but it only works that way because your primary has fulcrum shift and transference.

But in each case it's the primary of "buff/debuff/heal" that is going to dictate when, how, and how often the various powers in the secondary are going to be used... and even how they are going to be slotted.

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If you're using your ultimate blast, you aren't doing all that.

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Most of that is done beforehand(the buffing). Getting a group herded together tightly enough to pop off fulcrum shift and use nuke/nova etc is very possible. It's probably easier for my SG and I because we tend to run in defender/controller heavy teams, but it is possible. Yes there's a stun/delay/end regen penalty, but a damage capped nuke along with the versatility any defender brings to a team is amazing and worth the damage difference.

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Not every defender set is a buff-only set (aka forcefield). In fact, forcefield and empathy are the only sets that aren't primarily debuff sets defensively speaking. Kinetics can go in here too I guess, since they don't have any toggle debuffs and are mostly a non-defensive buff set (-damage and -speed debuffs along with ID are their "defense" powers).

So, really, "if you're a kinetic, empathy, or FF defender in the 40+ game you can use your ultimate blast and with the help of a kinetic defender or controller do the full 65% of what a blaster could have with the same power on his lonesome."

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No it seems impressive because on top of causing all of that damage, I can also keep my entire team healed, buffed, unmezzed, and full on endurance. To me, that's well worth the difference in damage. If anything blasters have the short end of the stick because all that they have is damage.

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If you're using your ultimate blast, you aren't doing all that. You're spending all your endurance, getting totally detoggled, and taking on several seconds of no or much-reduced end recovery on an attack that on its unbuffed own is lucky it's able to knock off +1 minions.

The difference in damage is the difference between breaking the board and not breaking the board in karate. When you break the board, it doesn't hurt much. When you don't break the board, the board breaks your hand.

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Both defenders and blaster sets should be reworked to keep them alive longer.

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I agree with this.

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Never mind the fact that Force Fielders actually have a straight-out direct damage attack in their Primary. That alone -no matter whether you like or dislike it- would lead any reasonable person to presume that they were not meant to just stand around and update their bubbles every few minutes, End allowing of course.

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Wow, you've never played a forcefielder have you

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tried that actually back when i first started the char. died alot and took my team with me most of the time. also was alot harder finding groups. when i switched over to pure heals/buffs i not only had no issues finding teams i shot up in lvls real quick. the only thing that has really slowed me down lately is badge collecting and exemping down for TF's which i love to do.

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What levels were you when you had problems dying a lot and taking your team with you? If it was the teens... that's normal for almost everybody.

What levels did you shoot up real quick and have no trouble finding a team during? If it was 22-32... that's normal for almost everybody.

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thats one of the reasons i say alot of the "Can't Find a group" is play style. its quite appearent that many share your opion about secondary's. yet by going completely against the "Forum" line of thought i have no issues finding teams. everyone loves to have me even more after seeing what i can add to a team.

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If you're using the LFT tool, there's no way to tell what the playstyle of anyone is. You only even know their powersets if they list them in their LFT message (which most people don't). All they know about you is that you're some kind of defender, you could be a storm/psi with nothing but Gale from the primary for all they know.

So the people inviting you don't know if they're getting a pure support "empathy/leadership" defender like you build, or a kinetic/radiation "offender" who didn't even take speed boost.

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i would point out that in any game the % of people that post/read official forums is quite small. some times they do speak for the majority but normally not. in this case i am thinking not since as the Devs have stated they see no problems with Defenders. if a large portion of players disagreed with that the devs would know based on the numbers IE more and more people not playing defenders.

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Defenders are the second-least-played AT overall as far as I know (second to Controllers). 40+ defenders are the least-played AT (in other words, even though there are less controllers total, more controllers are still playing at high levels than defenders).

The data on this isn't scientific and is player-collected, and I'm sure the devs have actual numbers and that it varies somewhat from server to server. But it makes sense as a pattern if you think about it.

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actually as i have mentioned i have all 4 leader powers and 3 of them are 6 slotted so thats 15 less right there not counting the 3 free ones. add travel powers which i only have flight and air sup. flights 6 slotted since i do not use my combat powers any way . plus stamina(6 slotted) which of course requires 2 extra nearly useless powers to get that brings me down 5 more slots right there so thats only 2 left from the 22 your talking about.

and except for absorb pain which i do not have and res which really needs no slots i am nearly 6 slotted on all my primary powers. i do have TP friend only one slotted of course but almost required to have for a high lvl emp defender. i took mass hypno. as my epic power.

heres my build

Heal Aura 6 slotted all heals
Heal other 6 slotted all heals
recover aura 6 slotted all recharge
regen aura 6 slotted all recharge
adren boost 6 slotted all recharge
fort 1 slotted to hit buff
res 1 slotted recharge
clear mind 1 slotted recharge

dark blast 1 slotted dmg
gloom 1 slotted dmg

brawl , sprint , rest , swift and health all 1 slotted misc.

stamina 6 slotted for end recovery

air super 1 slotted dmg
flight 6 slotted speed

assult 6 slotted for end recovery
tatics 6 slotted for to hit plus
vengence 1 slotted to hit buff
manuvers 6 slotted 3 end 3 defense

TP friend 1 slotted recharge

mass hypno 3 slotted recharge

so you see other then mass hypno and fly all my "Free" slots are taken and since i do no dmg anyway why bother wasting them on my 2 attack powers when i can move faster and get off a occasional emer hold.

i am sure some of our local math majors can provide the actual pluses of having me around but i bet hey are rather huge

EDIT funny thing is in the 3-4 min it took me to log on and check my build during off time hrs i got 2 invites without seek ion

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Honestly, I think you're making a serious mistake through your total neglect of your secondary. Since you're /dark, you can provide a degree of crowd control as well as damage mitigation via your secondary - in addition to doing some damage.

You'd be of much greater defensive value to your team if you had Tenebrous Tentacles and Nightfall for area accuracy debuffing and additional damage output, especially compared to the questionable worth of assault and vengence.

As far as emergency crowd control, you'd likely be better-off still with Dark Pit compared to Mass Hypno, since the Sleep of Mass Hypno is broken by damage whereas Dark Pit's disorient won't be.

My experience with breakfrees is that their Magnitude is lower than the old Disciplines. Stacked up effects have gotten through them as I recall. I'd have to test - it could just be that I had an effect on me when the breakfree I'd popped, wore off, since their duration is shorter than a single-target defender can win many battles against +3s.

In which case, it still is a problem because if I can't overlap breakfrees I can't keep from being detoggled when the previous break free wears off.

I'm not talking about +8s. I'm talking about +3s and +4s. Depending on what your build is and what enemy you're fighting, you might need stacked purples or yellows to pull your tush out of the fire. Not every defender is dark or radiation

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Of course, not being able to use as many inspirations would hurt defenders plenty as well.

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It would? How? Where?

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Breakfrees. Nuff said

Reds are the only way for some defenders to hit damage caps.

For people with little or no defense, 4 good lucks could make the difference between faceplanting and not.

For defenders who need to have their primary powers hit, loading up yellows can make the difference between life and death vs higher level enemies.

Anything you do to limit inspirations will boomerang back on defenders in several ways.

Of course, not being able to use as many inspirations would hurt defenders plenty as well.

I agree that self buffing wouldn't really make defenders overpowered. It would bring the weakest soloing sets in line with the most powerful ones.

Empathy would be best off but kinetics wouldn't be too far behind with self speedboost and self increase density.

Mostly what would happen is that at lower levels, defenders would be a lot better. Perhaps unbalancingly better compared to other ATs before level 22. But it would even out at high levels, especially at level 35+.

Maybe just make it scale - at level 1 you can self-buff at 50% effect, but it scales up to level 32 (the controllers' "magic level") where you can self buff to 100% effect.

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I respectfully disagree. a Dark/* Defender should NOT be played like a controller. It should be played as an accuracy and damage debuffer. When I have 3 pets out, I can debuff damage on a single target by 95%. Can a Controller do this? The answer is no.

Just because you have Fearsome Stare doesn't mean you should play like a controller. Stick to what you're AT is for: ie buff/debuff/blasting. If a defender was playing like that on my team, they'd be kicked off.

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A controller can debuff damage on a large group of targets by 100% (held enemies get no attacks!). Can most defenders do this? The answer is no - though rads get EM Pulse.

If a defender was playing like that on my team - preventing us from taking any damage whatsoever - they'd get invited back

Thank you for posting here, Statesman.

Like many of the other people in this thread, I think that defenders aren't really fine. I don't think that defenders - or any other AT - should be strictly "needed" at any level.

However, I think beyond the idea of being needed or not, that defenders simply are redundant in the upper level game. There's no capability unique to the AT, and there's nothing we're notably "best at" in the late game.

I am reading many of the developer statements about I5 to be telegraphing a nerf for tanks, scrappers, and controllers. I'm not really happy about that. I don't want other people to "need" defenders out of their weaknesses. That's not fun. The EQ model of having to have a cleric around isn't super-heroic. And being the cleric who needs to have other people around, that won't make defenders feel super-heroic either.

I would much, much rather have my defender character improved so that teams will want me because of my strength, rather than need me because of their weakness.

Edit - and, it's okay for an AT to be a hybrid AT, but defenders aren't at the right hybrid place. The AT as a whole needs more personal defense. Higher hitpoints. Some sort of status resistance and greater protection from damage. The reason for this is that while our secondaries are ranged... our primaries are only half-ranged.

Alot of the primaries are full of PBAOE powers, or toggle debuffs where 'hugging the anchor' is the one of the only ways to keep everything in the debuff area. Defenders who are employing their primaries are - varying somewhat from primary to primary of course - exposing themselves to just as much "splash damage" and melee risk as scrappers do... and potentially are generating a lot more aggro with area debuff powers.