EvilGeko

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lol @ RPing an explanation for powerset proliferation

but, *highfives* for powerset proliferation.

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Seriously. That's like them trying to come up with a RP reason we didn't get Archery until I5.

Ummm... you see, Manticore had a monopoly on Bows and Arrows until the Justice Department took him to court to....

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Because it is a good back story I am willing to wait till tomorrow on this. Had they said next week, I would be calling for Dr. Brainstorm's head.

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What's with this positive attitude? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH EVILRYU?

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QFE, QFT

It's nice to be listened to. Great job devs, as always.

To the flamers who said they couldn't/wouldn't give the complete list.

lol@you

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I haven't explored how high it ranges, but the issue isn't that it needs more zones. To me, it's an issue that villains don't know where they belong without someone telling them.

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Hehe, I've never had this problem villainside, but it is the main reason I don't play heroes. I HATE the zones blueside, and after Kings Row I generally have no idea where I'm supposed to go, so I just wind up teaming and doing other peoples missions, which leaves me scratching my head when I can't find a team and just wind up logging back to a villain instead.

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I don't understand this. If you play CoH, the game gives you two paths to learn what to do after King's Row:

1) You can talk to your 5-9 contacts and they will introduce you to someone in Steel Canyon or Skyway; or

2) Just like with City of Villains you can do radio (newspaper) missions in either of those two zones until the police introduce you to a contact.

Are you saying that the game doesn't give you enough information to figure out where to go after King's Row? I can't see how that could be the case if you do the missions for even ONE contact from 5-9.

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Show me where anyone has given an ARGUMENT for Immersion.

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The game itself is a strong argument for immersion. All games that are not completely abstract are. That's why we have games with themes, instead of just featureless black and white pieces, in the first place. Otherwise, we might as well just be in a huge white room with a level dispenser and some mission doors off to one side. Cripes, even incredibly primitive computer games like Spacewar and Arkanoid involve at least attempting to imagine you're someone else, somewhere else, doing something else. They required more suspension of disbelief than modern games, but that's just a function of the technology involved. The principle remains the same, and just as fundamental now as then.

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A theme is simply a starting point. Despite the fact that theme can go either way in this specific context, theme cannot be used as the sole argument to defeat anything you don't like.

Because if it does, then you have to be consistent.

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See, this is why I think you're trolling - because the alternative is to believe that you're just so monumentally culturally tone-deaf that you don't grasp this fundamental fact underlying the entire concept of games, and since you're able to operate a computer and form sentences, that seems somehow unlikely.

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I could literally say the same thing. You all ignore the dozens of inconsistencies with theme, deeming them all acceptable, but then condemn this idea because it would be the most anti-thematic thing in the universe. That's why it's difficult to take any of you seriously. You use immersion tactically, only to down the things you don't like. While I'm consistent and admit quite reasonably that it's not a consideration that's worth worrying about.

Trolls say anything to keep a fight going. I've been clear and consistent. I will acknowledge reasonable points. I'll give you specifically this. Of the many people I've had these arguments with, you are at least somewhat consistent. You do seem to have a fairly consistent view about the way you would like the game to be and what you think is in theme. It's a terribly boring and limited theme and thankfully the devs have moved on, but at least you seem to stick to it.

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As for where players have specifically made the case for immersion in City of Heroes? Grow up. You've been around here a long time, I've been here a long time, and I've watched you have this same ridiculous argument four or five times over the years against whole successive generations of people. The phrasing changes, the avatars change, the song remains the same. And since I don't think you're genuinely clueless enough to believe what you're saying, the only alternative is that you just get off on taking untenable positions and "defending" them with cheap rhetorical stunts.


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Yes, I've had this argument multiple times. And each time we boil this immersion nonsense to it's core. There is no "immersion". It's just like Vega said. It's something someone doesn't like so they trot out immersion as their shield.

It didn't work with crafting, it didn't work with loot, and hopefully it will not work to defeat a proposal that will add more vibrancy to the game.

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The arguement is right in front of you. If immersion was not important, this would not be any sort of City of Heroes or City of Villians. We'd be teddy bear soldiers in space armed with magical laser guns of fun from an alternate dimension ruled by blood-sucking men from the pits of damnation. A game has a theme, and this game happens to be based on super heroes.

Now, your arguement about Doctor Xavier and Magneto are understandable points, but they are the exception, not the rule. Those two mutants may have a personal connection, but when you have a city full of super-powered do-gooders and evil-doers, such connections are more rare. Spider-Man may have a personal vendetta against Venom, but that's not his only enemy, and if he spies Juggernaught causing mayhem he'll stop him without pause. Your scenario brings to mind an intensely story-driven arch-nemesis system rather than the more-likely-under-your-system case of a hero stopping a villian, with whom he has no prior connection, but is nevertheless posing a threat to society.


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OK, that's a decent and reasoned argument. I'm not so set in my view that I won't acknowledge a reasoned point.

But let me retort.

The game's theme is superheroes. Fair enough. You state that immersion requires that we remain separate because the alternative would require PvP or nothing. My view is that position is AT BEST the lesser of two evils on the immersion front.

Because, if we look at NY City in the Marvel Universe, no reasonable person could argue that the City isn't absolutely filled with both heroes and villains. No person who reads comics could reasonable argue that every time heroes and villains see each other they break into open combat.

Thus by keeping player villains out of Paragon City we simply create the opposite problem for immersion. We have a City where there are few costumed villains. Even among the NPCs, most villains are part of the organized militias. That's really not particularly in theme.

It would be in theme for villains to be able to run around Paragon City. The ONLY thing that would break immersion, such as it is, is the inability to combat player villains at will. That cannot break immersion to any greater extent than the current situation where heroes purposefully ignore NPC villains simply because they aren't worth any exp (grey) or they are not in a mission instance.

The thing you claim would break your immersion, already exists in a very real sense. Heroes ignore crime and villainy simply because the game's rules make it not worthwhile. That is NOT in theme for comics.

So if we're really just choosing between two situations, neither of which are in theme, then how can it be unreasonable to choose the option that provides more gameplay choices for the majority of players?

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Because a canard is a groundless belief. Since I've presented grounds for why I think immersion is a worthless design consideration and that belief that it is worthwhile is groundless.

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And yet, presented with other players' grounds for why they think it isn't a worthless design consideration - which you have been, over and over and over again - you call that belief a canard? Hmm.

Speaking of trolls.

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Show me where anyone has given an ARGUMENT for Immersion. All I've seen is people say that Immersion is a design consideration, without any argument for why that is so. No basis, only their belief that it is important. A belief not GROUNDED in anything other than their preference.

So point out the rational basis presented to argue for immersion. The closest was Joyce who only said that he wouldn't argue the point.

But hey, easier to just make stuff up instead of trying to come up with a cogent argument for immersion right?

Prove me wrong, make an argument that's based in fact. Stop the stupid flaming and support your point. Or prove my point better than I ever could. Your move.

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immersion is nonsense. It needs to be dead and buried.

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Speaking of tired old canards.

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Hmm... no argument there. See I've made my arguments for why I think immersion is nonsense. Others have here as well. If you believe that view is a canard, then you can't just say that.

Well, you could, but that would make you a troll. Because a canard is a groundless belief. Since I've presented grounds for why I think immersion is a worthless design consideration and that belief that it is worthwhile is groundless.

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Immersion. funny word that.

My Immersion is broken every time I open a mission window and see "Heroic"

My Immersion is broken every time I do a co-op mission and can't pass an awaken.

My immersion is broken every time I do a mayhem on a stalker and longbow runs right to me.

My immersion is broken when I go to the RWZ, and a Vanguard op talks to me like I am a hero.

My immersion is broken when I can fight WITH longbow but AGAINST Arachnos in the RWZ.

My immersion is broken every time I have to save some lame Hero in the RWZ.


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My immersion is shot dead, repeatedly, when a hero and villian cannot fight one another.

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Good, since immersion is nonsense. It needs to be dead and buried.

Oh, you "forgot" to quote this part:

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My immersion is a very lame argument. [u]Immersion applies to both sides if it does for one side. Please give that argument up. Just say you don't like it and be done with it.[u]


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Cloaking your opinion in "immersion" doesn't grant it any more relevance than it had before. Personally, I would respect an argument that says, "I don't like it" more than pulling out the old canard.

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Why don't you think it would work?

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My concern is that people would accidentally find themselves in PvP if they aren't careful. Or to alleviate that problem you would have a rather annoying message that would pop up everytime you entered the zone.

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Also, why would a seperate PvP server with a different ruleset be better? That sounds like it would have a few problems:

- splitting off some of the Devs to work on the different codebase
- making sure the different codebase was compatible with updates
- perceived 'stepchild' status (deserved or not) of PvP server

etc...

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The different codebase argument doesn't really hold a lot of water with me. In the long term, the time you spend maintaining the separate codebases is well paid off in the time you don't have to consider how to shoe-horn everything into PvP and PvE at the same time.

Also, from personal experience, the typical animosity that you see between PvEers and PvPers tends to fade when each playstyle has its own gamespace.

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You go to the Tram (or submarine) and see:
Atlas Park (PvE)
Atlas Park (PvP)

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I like this idea. It keeps PvP optional while adding variety to the zones. However, I'd group all the PvE stuff at the top, have it so people have to scroll down to the PvP group at the bottom... just so there aren't any complaints about accidentally clicking on the one below what they wanted.

OR, thinking a bit more on it... have the PvP versions be accessable from OB portals, so that they could be on a different "shard" where some key technologies were circumvented and Arachnos has a bigger foothold.

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I don't think this would work, but I've long hoped the devs would create a PvP server with a separate ruleset.

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Sounds like your hero and villain aren't really either, just people who happen to have powers. I'd think that your hero would want to apprehend the villain simply for being a Ziggurat escapee, and the villain would want to take out the hero to gain credibility with Arachnos. What I know however is that heroes and villains aren't neutral towards eachother, much less palsy. Any exception to this is either a circumstance that "is bigger than the both of them," or a joke comic.

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Or X-men where Charles Xavier and Magneto were once and in many ways still are the closest friends. Not a big Batman friend, but I thought Harvey Dent and Batman were once close friends as well.

Villains and heroes can have much more complex relationships than you give them credit for and so I must say to you:

Read more comics. Because your experience with hero/villain relationships seems remarkably shallow.

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Consider my duel commentary future proofing against the only other way of having villains and heroes in the same zone without faction instances or PvP free fire. Also consider it a subtle, stealth jab against the posters here who already have directly suggested this. Doesn't look like you tried very hard to distance yourself from the notion, though.

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I don't because while I don't actively want a /duel option, I've played games with it and so long as you can auto-decline, it's really a minor problem.

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Your 50 Brute has gone to Paragon City multiple times, and has been treated like a villain in Paragon City multiple times. Hunh, if anything it's the heroes who are rarely sent to the Rogue Isles.

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Most of the times my villain went to Paragon has been to beat up other crooks. The Mayhems are the only exception.

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Also:

That your list of issues went your way is not a commentary on your efforts, more than it is a showing of the developers folding like cards to the MMO traditionalist set. Cards in slow motion! Regardless, they still capitulated to the same old band-aids designed to distract people from monotonous maps and mission design.

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And because all that stuff they added is fun.

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Finally, it was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh.* I was quite happy with being MMOless and getting hyped over some other game that was on the horizon. However, one of my e-buddies (who I actually convinced to play CoH shortly after launch, hunh) told me I should come back because he had one of those 15 bonus days codes. I guess I'll see in a week or so if I want Samurai armor that bad...

*Only cool people recognize that line.

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Perhaps MMOs aren't for you. But so many people have felt that the post-Jack era has been the halcyon days for CoH/V. If loot/crafting and the like aren't to your liking then really perhaps there's another game you might like more.

I hope you find that perfect game that can add content instantly and so doesn't need loot and crafting and all the things you find annoying. Perhaps someday. And maybe that game will be the best ever....

After I get them to add loot and crafting, of course!

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Loot
Crafting
Flashback
MoG fix
A way to earn unlimited respecs

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Hmm... well, on my personal scorecard, that's two Lames, an Okay But Awkwardly Implemented, a No Data (don't have any Regen Scrappers above the mid-20s) and an Indifferent (never had a particularly burning need for respecs). So, uh, well done, I guess.

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Yeah, but you're surly!

My point is, many people have converted over to our Lady Loot. Perhaps someday you'll accept her tender embrace. She gifted my Brute with an Armageddon proc for her 50th birthday and she can help you too.

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IOW, I think people would bust a nut if the devs allowed this.

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Fair enough, I think you make a good point on that topic.

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This already happens, most notably in Mayhem and Safeguard missions, and in a bunch of other missions besides.
No one complains now that this "breaks immersion" because their personal experience is completely consistent - I would call it verisimilitude. I walk into Atlas, I see some stuff, I do some stuff, and there's nothing dissonant (you could argue that the blue force field boundaries break "immersion," but I would argue that they're not dissonant). If you're "in character" you have no way to know that there's another Atlas. The only way I'd know that there's another, parallel Atlas Park is via the global chat or tell system, which is an OOC system anyway.


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I think no one talks about how it breaks immersion, because immersion is almost always brought up to down an idea, rarely to support one. Just show me how much of a nonsensical argument it is.

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But if they implemented your proposal, every person fundamentally opposed to PvP (which I think is a lot of people) and every hardcore RPer (which, OK, maybe not that many of those, relatively speaking) would at least hover their mouse over that "cancel" button.

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Yeah. Many people said that about loot and crafting too. (ZZmdude being one). Zen Concern actually did quit over loot...for awhile. But then they came back.

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I don't know if you're including me in this or not, but for the record I think this is a pretty civil discussion and my posts are being written dispassionately. I don't even feel that strongly about this, honestly. I just love to argue about game design.

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EvilGeko was kidding.

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I've fought similar fights before just to see my ideas come into the game and the doubters slink away to enjoy that which they said they would hate.

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Such as... ?

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Loot
Crafting
Flashback
MoG fix
A way to earn unlimited respecs


I'm not saying I'm the only one who fought for those things, but many of those things are so deeply associated with my posting history that Arcanaville quipped that I must have blackmail material on the devs.

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Villainy doesn't have to be brainless SMASH THE HEROES. Unfortunately that's what Arachnos is about, and it's why City of Villains isn't as fulfilling as it should be. It's possible to be a villain without having to PvP with every hero you see passing, without carrying around the "I AM A SUPERVILLAIN" sign we must be carrying that so antagonises wandering Longbow spawns

Villains should be able to enter Paragon City, and heroes should be able to visit the Rogue Isles. You could probably only do arcs from your side (so heroes can't do existing villain missions, and vice versa) but contacts could be added that will cater for the other side (Longbow, Wyvern and Legacy Chain contacts to provide missions for heroes in the Rogue Isles, for example).


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Take me and my arrogance and the justified scorn you all have for me out of it for a second. What is unreasonable about what this poster wrote?

Can someone stop saying "immersion" and just plainly explain what's problematic about this idea?

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Man, where is my popcorn. Watching this group of users argue about this particular design point is like watching blindfolded clowns battle for supremacy inside their tiny car.

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This fight is delicious. I've fought similar fights before just to see my ideas come into the game and the doubters slink away to enjoy that which they said they would hate.

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See, this is why I hate "immersion". How stupid is it to have two different versions of Atlas running at the same time. While a group of heroes are shaking their bootys under Atlas, there's this dark villain Atlas that exists at the same time. Somehow this doesn't break immersion, but just having one Atlas does.

I don't buy it.

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Versus what? Having Villains and Heroes under the Atlas statue, shooting the crap with eachother like they aren't separated by just about everything they believe in? "Sorry, Captain Justice, but as of today EVERYTHING's problems are bigger than your fight for truth and justice. Now go cook cocktails with Genocide-man."


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Yes, versus that.

And let me ask you all something. What the heck does my villain have against heroes generally. My main villain does not know my main hero and vice versa. They don't have any reason to fight. If my hero just happens to see my main villain wandering around Atlas, she would have no reason whatsoever to pull out the sword and start swinging.

In Siren's Call though, I see my main villain, helping Arachnos beat down on Longbow, I don't see any problem with there being a fight then.

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Having to deal with some idiot's /duel spam because he knows he can victimize more people in Atlas Park than he ever could in those ghost town PvP zones? That's fun?

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Umm... who said anything about /duel? Oh right, you did. Please don't strawman me. And even if they did create a /duel, they could just as easily create an option to auto-decline them like every other game with the option that I know of.

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You think that just because you can point out some silly little blemishes on the world's continuity (most of which can be explained by story or gameplay needs)

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They aren't silly blemishes. They're gaping holes. Immersion is a myth. You make light of them to reinforce your specious argument.

But OK, what's the story reason that my level 50 Brute, who's beat most of the Freedom Phalanx, Lord Recluse, and a couple of his patrons, can't just take a boat to Paragon. Who the heck is going to stop her? How does your precious immersion explain that conundrum?

It can't. My villain can't go to Paragon because the rules says she can't. That's it. Well, rules can and should be changed in this context.

I await a reasonable argument that doesn't resort to the specious, tired, and nonsensical immersion for why we shouldn't change this rule.

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Open all the zones... That would immediately more than double villain game space. You pulled out the tired argument that makes no sense and now get annoyed when people point out the legion of holes in that argument.

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I know I'm sounding like a broken record here, but you can do the same thing without any complaints of immersion breaking by just giving heroes and villains their own instances of each zone.

I'm not a zealot for immersion, though, and if they did simply let villains and heroes cohabit the same zones w/o PvP, I wouldn't complain.

But there are a few things they'd have to deal with, and a few things that seem counterintuitive.

1) Spawns. Can villains attack PPD and Longbow spawns? And if they can, do hero buffs still affect them? Can a hero walk up to a villain fighting a PPD and heal or bubble the PPD?

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Yup. That could be fun actually. Remember, immersion is a meaningless distraction to fun gameplay IMO, so I don't accept that there would be anything wrong with being able to fight via proxy. Interestingly you can do that in the PvP zones right now.

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2) Police drones. If villains can fight PPD, for example, do PPD now get zapped by police drones? If not, where do villains go to run when they're in over their heads fighting the good guys? Where is their safe area?

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They're criminals in Paragon, as heroes will be in the Rogue Isles. You know how you wind up in a council or CoT jail cell if you're killed in their missions? I think that would be a lovely result of dying in Paragon as a villain. Waking up back in Police Custody and having to bust your way out.

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3) Do we let villains wander up to BAB or Posi to get trained? What about up to a hero corp store to sell their enhancements?

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How does it work in the RWZ? Either have Arbiters and Quartermasters in secret Arachnos bases in Paragon or the villains can hoof it home to train.

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4) Which TFs in Ouroboros do the players get?

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If I really had my way, each character would have a good/evil meter and depending on their deeds would wind up on the bad or good side of the ledger. Until then, they get their "birth" factions Ouroboros.

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5) Can they walk into the PPD station and pick up a police radio, even though PPD are hostile toward them?

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No, but they can read their newspapers. Plenty of filthy lucre to be found in the shining city.

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These are all problems that deal with immersion, but they're counterintuitive to the point of being problematic.

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I see no problems at all personally.

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Giving each side their own instances of the zone, on the other hand, immediately solves a lot of these problems. In the villain version of Atlas, for instance, they can remove Ms. Liberty, hero stores, field analysts, and contacts, make City Hall a red zone swarming with PPD and maybe some NPC heroes, put more PPD on the street and fewer Hellion and Vahz street crimes, give us new contacts in back alleys, access to a pawn shop for the market (which should be merged nonetheless), etc.

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See, this is why I hate "immersion". How stupid is it to have two different versions of Atlas running at the same time. While a group of heroes are shaking their bootys under Atlas, there's this dark villain Atlas that exists at the same time. Somehow this doesn't break immersion, but just having one Atlas does.

I don't buy it.

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So while I agree that immersion shouldn't be a deterrent for implementing fun game systems, I think we should avoid throwing it out the window completely, as it seems allowing cohabitation without additional work might do. And in this case, there's simply no reason to do it: separate instances accomplishes the goal of low-cost new content without sacrificing immersion a bit.

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This is my point about immersion. It's an argument with no meaning. Personally, I think your idea would break "immersion" to a much greater extent than just having one Atlas. Immersion is in the eye of the beholder. It's dependent on what the individual believes is consistent.

Which is why I ignore the whole nonsense and talk about what's fun for the game because Immersion is, was and always will be BS.

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I eagerly await you attempts to give a reasonable argument for why opening the zones isn't a good idea.

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And I eagerly awaits your attempts to give a reasonable arguement why it is. Yes, villians need new zones...

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You answered your own question. Villains need more zones, and one of the easiest and fairest ways to reach parity between the factions is open all zones.

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I'm finding this hilarious how you all accuse me of using a tired arguement when you are repeating yourselves as well.

My final response: I don't give a damn how un-immersed this game is now, there's not point in making it worse.

I'm a bit disappointed it ever turned into this, because I really like the OP's suggestion until Geko hijacked the thread, like he does with every other of this topic.

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You can accuse me of whatever you want. I'm completely consistent. Immersion is garbage and not a real argument for doing anything.

Open all the zones. That's not a hi-jack. That's on topic. That would immediately more than double villain game space. You pulled out the tired argument that makes no sense and now get annoyed when people point out the legion of holes in that argument.

And if you want to blame me? Sure go ahead.

I fought for loot when people told me it wasn't "immersive". Now people are arguing how to expand it.

I fought for a chance at unlimited respecs. "Not immersive Geko," the doubters said. Got that too and everyone was happy.

I fought for Flashback. Guess what, people like that too. Immersion be darned.


Reason, not calls to an amorphous "immersion" which doesn't exist win the day. I eagerly await your attempts to give a reasonable argument for why opening the zones isn't a good idea.

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Villains attack hero cities all the time, and frequently live there, as Silverspar said.

[u]they usually don't spend all their time attacking other villains in caves for no reason.[u]

CoX is about as superhero/villain as world of warcraft is a superhero game.

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Quoted and Emphasized for Truth

This is my point. Immersion is a garbage argument that is holding both heroes and villains back from more content in this instance. I like both sides and want to see them both get the rich content of the WHOLE game.

I want to be able to live out stories like when Magneto LEAD the X-Men and taught the New Mutants.

I want to be able to be Gambit or Bishop and turn to the bad side because you think it's best for those you care about.

None of that is possible now. Now you are relegated to your side and that's it. It's stupid, and if we're going to talk about "Immersion" then Stasis has just presented the most cogent reason why immersion would REQUIRE that we do this.

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I'm not asking for hardcore immersion, I just don't want to see heroes and villians palling around. It's stupid. I'm sick of co-op content as much as anyone else, and I'd like to see more Hero VS Villians content instead. Making all zones open and not giving us any PvP content is so far removed from the comic books this game was based on it's laughable. I don't care if other games do it, this isn't other games. Maybe in Good and Evil can mingle in one world, Rebels and Imperials in another, but Heroes and Villians, just, no.

The arguement is not any more tired than the one FOR opening all zones.

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Who said anything about Co-op? I said in PvE zones, you provide PvE missions where you oppose the other faction.

And if you don't think that villain and heroes often pal around in comics, I'll give you the same refrain I often use:

Read moar comics.

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Open all zones to both sides.

Create a new PvE structure that allows people to "fight" (as in oppose by means other than combat) the other faction.

Example, Longbow creates bases in all Villain zones and gives sabotage and liberation missions to heroes. Arachnos creates similar bases in Paragon and gives villains an opportunity to do what they do best.

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No.

Now, if neither side can battle each other, it DOES break immersion. Obviously no game will have absoloute immersion until we have full-fledged virtual reality, but that still doesn't mean games shouldn't try. If I see Mr. Evil robbing a bank I want to stop him. Comics are all about hero vs. villian, and having us in a giant, perpetual Pocket D really ruins that. Many other things break immersion, sure, but none to that level of stupidity. Besides, even if we have many non-immersive things what's the point in making it worse?

Having open-world PvP, sure. I'd love open-world PvP if every player was mature and fun. However, as we all know, that's a pipe dream. We'll be stuck with jerks, [censored], babies, and everything else that comes with giving players free-reign to harrass each other. I'm sure they could add more drones in all zones, but players will find a way. They always do.

In short, it would never work, unless we get a Dev who manages to think up the most balanced and fun open-world PvP ever, which sounds about as momentous sliced bread.

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Immersion is nonsense.

I don't see you or anyone else complaining that level 50s can't do lower level content, but that's entirely ridiculous. Take Croatoa. Salmanca is about to fall into the spirit world. If my level 50 goes up and offers her services to the Mayor, he'll tell her to buzz off.

How the hell is that "immersive" Whatever the hell that means. And do you really suggest that a desperate town leader telling a "Hero of the City" that they can't help because they're too powerful doesn't break "immersion" to the same extent that not being able to have open PvP does?

That's simply silly.

And if this so called, "immersion" is so important to you, then why don't all heroes do everything in their power to bring the criminal DJ Zero to justice? He harbors thousands of known criminals in his club, but no one seems to have a problem shaking their booty there. With Vanguard and the coming Midnight Squad content at least there's a plausible reason why you might join forces.

In Pocket D, no such reason exist. If "immersion" is so important, then heroes, Longbow, etc. should be doing everything to bring down DJ Zero, but at the very least Heroes shouldn't be allowed to go there. And given the content in RWZ, there's no way that Longbow would be providing frikken security in the club.

I could write pages about the many things in CoH/V that breaks "immersion" as people use the term. The point is that games have rules. And one of the rules is that in Pocket D, heroes and villains can't fight. There's no reason not to expand that into other zones.

Other games do it to great success. It would work fine here and no one would complain after it was here for awhile. How many people are still whining about loot? As long as I've been playing MMOs people have brought up the stupid "immersion" argument everytime they want to down an idea they don't like.

It never makes sense. It's not an intellectually honest argument. You admit that yourself when you admit that there are many things in CoH that break "immersion." And you know, I wholly disagree with you that this particular idea would break immersion to any greater extent than the fact:

That Positron and Valkyrie (and all the other signature heroes) stand there and let noobs get beat on and do nothing to help.

That there are no children (well two) in the City.

That heroes fly, run, and jump past people getting robbed on their way to missions because "All that crap is grey to me...no exp."

That the U.S. would suffer to have no less than five uniformed militia groups have military bases in a major American city.

That Statesman can simultaneously be sitting on a boat in IP, and be in the clutches of Tyrant, and be beating down villains in Recluse's Victory.

That each and every hero can be the one who saved the Psychochronometron (and any other story arc that says you're the only one who did it)

I could go on but the point is clear. Immersion is not even an important goal. Immersion, the feeling that you're in a world that makes sense and is consistent, is incompatible with MMORPGs in general. In literally thousands of ways people have to put their need for "immersion" on the shelf to accept that the game has to provide a social and game space for many different people.

This isn't a comic book. This is a game about the types of heroes you see in comic books.

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Well said Lothic.

I'm completely consistent.

All ATs; both sides
All zones; both sides
All sets; All appropriate ATs
Merge the markets.

Ethos is your choice, not your yoke.

Freedom, Mom, baseball and apple pie (or cherry if you prefer).

If you disagree you're a heathen commie who luvs terrorists!

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No to everything but merging the markets.

Why? Because maybe I just don't want a damn MM asking me to help him team, or maybe I like my Scrapper being the #1 damage dealer on my team, rather than worrying over a Brute.

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You're already in that situation. All the new high level content is co-op. The barriers are breaking down. Let's blow them up.

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CoV and CoH ARE one game, but they're different pieces of that game. It's like one of those marble pastries that has a dark and a light side... They're the same pastry, but two VERY different things that should be kept apart.

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They aren't very different. I was playing my Brute last night and I was struck with how darn close an experience to CoH it was. My team and I fought Carnies and CoT and Malta. Same crap I would be fighting over in Peregrine, just with a red and black background.

As a wise err....man said, "No..No different. Only different in your mind."