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Quote:So expansions do not change over time nor get things added?Because the Going Rogue expansion didn't come with Incarnate content.
And they are not loaded questions, lol.
When the content came out... it required the purchase of an expansion.
Why make the distinction that it is not part of that expansion? -
Quote:I need a computer to play my Incarnate characters.
I need an Internet connection to play my Incarnate characters.
Shall I go on?Quote:Battery charger for my phone.
As referenced earlier: Screws for my screwdriver.
Needed to buy property to use grass seed and my lawn mower.
Wouldn't have somewhere to use gas if I didn't have a car.
Wouldn't need a dishwasher if I didn't have dishes.
I had to pay for gym access to get a personal trainer.
Bought a TV so I could watch cable.
Have a computer to surf the internet.
I could go on quite a while. -
Quote:Yes, you'll need all of that to play City Of Heroes, before, after, with or without Going Rogue and/or the Incarnate System.I need a computer to play my Incarnate characters.
I need an Internet connection to play my Incarnate characters.
Shall I go on?
The fact that you fail to recognize this before making such a post is exactly the reason why you can't understand the validity of what I am saying. -
Quote:Seriously, hehe, this is not a screw driver and screws... It is an expansion that was required in order to access content in an mmorpg. There are many vast differences.EK,
You have to buy a screwdriver to use screws. Most places sell screw drivers and screws separately. Because the screwdriver is a prerequisite, are screws still a part of it?
At the end of the day, Going Rogue didn't come with even the smallest piece of the Incarnate system.
Just focus on how, when the incarnate system came out... even with your subscription, and your level 50 character(s), you could not access it until you paid for... what?
Given that, how do you think that it is unreasonable to think that this content is part of that expansion? -
Quote:No, I saw what you were trying to say, but it does not say that.My point is that you are failing to make the distinction between Incarnates being part of Going Rogue. It was a single prerequisite among others.
The point you're trying to make is essentially the same as saying that access to the forums was included with access to the game.
It's the exact same argument. I'm trying to get you to see that you're misplacing GR with I19 and that a similar argument would be to say that forum access was part of access to the game. Or live support.
Just because it seems reasonable doesn't make it true.
Honestly, think about this.
What else did you have to buy in order to access something that was not a part of that something that you had to buy in order to access it? -
Quote:I really only enjoy discussing things with people who remain respectful.Strawman. Please refute the points I made, not the opinion I stated.
If I have the time, I can go over your points later, if you would like.
EDIT:
Actually... that's pretty quick and simple:
Access to the forums was part of subscribing. What's your point?
Okay, there's more...
Incarnates require level 50:
Yeah, and different story arcs and content require different levels.
Incarnate Content is no different in that way.
Honestly, you made no valid point against anything about needing to purchase the Going Rogue expansion in order to partake in the Incarnate System when it opened up and how that can mean that it is a part of it. -
I've got to skedaddle...
I'm going to leave you with this:
What would George Carlin say about the idea that something that required you to purchase something else was not actually a part of that something else?
I just see that idea as twisting the simple reality of it into some abstract notion of "well, you see, even though it required your purchase, it was only a prerequisite and not actually a part of it..."
What is the friggin' difference?
It's a paid-for video game expansion that unlocked further content!
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Quote:It's all good.I ninja edited the post you quoted and I apologized for jumping into the middle of this.
I still agree with everyone else that the Incarnate System is not a part of Going Rogue. It's a prerequisite, not a piece.
You know I don't usually get so invloved on these boards, but I figured I'd give a shot at some casual conversation about something that interested me (crazy people and their odd classification systems!).
It is a difficult thing to maintain civility and a casual nature 'round these parts. -
Quote:It is a fun and silly thing to come up with distinctions for...So what happens if I sell you a new expansion that requires a prior expansion? Is my new expansion "part of" the old one? Are the features of my new expansion "included" in the fact that you bought the previous one?
It would depend on a few things. What title the company wanted to go with afterward, I suppose...
I'd say that it required two expansions. No real need to try and manipulate things into simple terms. Things are what they are.
An expansion that requires another expansion.
As we've discussed up thread... this has actually happened. -
Not at all.
As you pointed out, you also required a subscription.
Now that subscriptions are not required under the new business model, the deals are all changed.
Subscribe, and you have what you had, regarding those deals. Unsubscribe... and you are not owed the benefits of the previous deal.
That is my point. So many people were using this semantic twist to defend the new business model... when that twist was not needed to defend it.
The demands that things should be kept under Premium are baseless.
And my perception that the Incarnate System was a part of the Going Rogue expansion because it required its purchase in order to access it, in no way devalues the fact that premium accounts are not due any aspect that Paragon Studios sees fit to withhold as VIP only.
(you missed all this and jumped in as though I was arguing something that I wasn't... which is okay, because that was a large part of my point. This is insistence by other people has greatly been about fighting an argument, rather than simple logic/truth) -
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Quote:Wow, Dechs... I am disappoint in you.Hey, before this, you had to buy City of Heroes to access any bit of the game.
I bought City of Heroes a long time ago. Obviously, since that was a requirement before, it's all included now. There shouldn't be a Paragon Market for me.
You've ignored that this has NOTHING to do with the Paragon Market, Freedom or anything about that agenda. -
Quote:No, I am not saying that, because there are no rules that cannot be broken.Given your rule, if I was an MMO developer and I decided to sell an expansion X that unlocked access to a zone, and then later decided to sell another expansion Y that unlocked a special feature in that zone, if I then say that expansion X is a prerequisite for the special feature but you still have to buy expansion Y to get it, you're saying I'm not allowed to do that by your rules of how MMOs are supposed to work; because the special feature is gated by and requires expansion X, then its a part of X by definition. I would be charging for the same feature twice. Furthermore if I decided to give away expansion X at a later date, I would be forced to give away the special feature because it was part of expansion X.
I would not consider myself to be bound to that rule myself. -
Quote:You see, I find your definition to be exactly the same (great way of putting it).But there is, or there wouldn't be a debate. I find your definition of "included" to be so extreme that it destroys the ability to usefully use the word in communication without vast contextual qualification. I truly consider it akin looking at something that's "orange" and labeling it "red", because orange has some red in it. I get what you're saying, but I think the word "included" is wholly wrong to communicate what you're saying about Incarnates and GR.
Content that only comes with the purchase of an expansion is part of that expansion (at the time that the system came out, it required the purchase of that expansion in order to access it).
You saying, "that doesn't mean it is a part of it", to me, is equal to you saying that orange is not orange. -
Quote:And it is this error that leads you to continue to make further errors in your reply....
Sorry if this sounds mean, but I think you were just being nitpicky to rile people up on a forum.
To me, insisting that something that requires the purchase of a paid expansion as not being part of that expansion is being nitpicky. -
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Quote:...
When I say "Going Rogue", the product, I am talking about the feature set of the CoH game service that existed when GR was brand new. When I bought GR, that's what it got me. It specifically unlocked certain things in the game that I couldn't access witout buying it, even though I had a subscription at the time. What I got when I bought it was some combination of the advertised features, plus any unadvertised features that were active when I started using it.
One of those things was not Incarnate access, because that wasn't yet accessible to anyone.
From my point of view, discussing "what you get" when you buy a packaged expansion demands looking at the time-frozen feature set the way I am.
...
That is precisely the perceptual difference.
The two major mmorpgs that I have ever been associated with both had their new expansion as a perpetual over-arcing title of their game. I don't see them as frozen-in-time boxed items. That is simply the launch/release. The game may change within the new expansion as well.
Anyway, you pointed all of this out rather well! And I agree!
Quote:Looking at it the other way - as a service that evolves over time, makes any effort to discuss what was "included" with a particular release meaningless. It suggests the validity of statements like Inventions were "included" in I6, because ED was a prerequisite for them. From a certain, very oblique way of looking at it, once might make the argument that such a thing is true, but I don't find it useful when discussing what was "included" in a paricular product or release.
If it is gated by and/or requires the expansion... then it is part of it. That is not "meaningless".
There is zero difficulty in explaining, discussing, figuring that out.
And the example of Inventions and I6 is not a part of a paid-for expansion.
All of that, rightly-so, is considered part of City Of Heroes. It simply required access to the game. -
Quote:No, I do not agree with that at all, haha.I give up.
Think what you want about whether Incarnates are part of Going Rogue.
At the end of the day, the devs have TOLD you that it isn't part of it when they did not allow you to keep it with the rest of it when you drop to Premium.
Simple logical conclusion. If you get to keep the Going Rogue content upon dropping to Premium, but you don't get to keep Incarnate content, then the Incarnate content isn't part of the Going Rogue content. If it were, you'd get to keep it.
How people can rail so hard against something so self-evident is beyond me.
What you're suggesting is... if the Incarnate System was advertised as part of Going Rogue, that they'd be bound to grant access to that system to Premium players.
To which I say... No friggin' way!
They have the right to cut things up under the new business model any which way they please.
Everything required a subscription beforehand.
So, anything without that subscription is a completely different deal than before. -
The following doesn't have much to do with anything... but that makes it little different than everything else right?
Quote:Much appreciated!Oh, I have no problem with putting the general consensus group to the test to prove their point as much as the minority, or the ones looking to change the status quo. It just causes better discussion and conversation to come out rather than 'we're right, you're wrong, there shall be no compromise.' I wouldn't have come up with that example if I wasn't looking for a scenario close enough to the present one by being conversationally challenged for one.
Quote:[Edit] Oh, and yes, making note of City of Villains coming part and parcel with City of Heroes when Going Rogue was released, eventually JtL came with the base game to subscribers as well, though it happened some time after the Kashyyyk expansion came out. Essentially the same deal there.
Quote:The main purpose of Going Rogue, side-switching, wouldn't have made much sense to someone without both games.
Hehe
Anyway, I just find it funny. It's hardly a stretch to claim that the thing that was going to be a part of the expansion's launch, then was pushed back, but still required that expansion's purchase... was a part of it. That is all.
As I said, I do get why some people would feel unwilling to acknowledge that, as though it'd give people with certain crazy agendas a way to continue arguing their crazy agenda... but reality is reality and I don't think we need to twist things to fend off the crazies. -
Huh, so no one else remembers or heard about what I mentioned in my earlier reply?
The remains of what was moderated had people talking about alligators and dinosaurs, at the very least.
I wish I knew more about it! -
Quote:I don't recall how many weeks/months it was afterward, but they added a few things (striped cat tail, animal fur texture to a few more parts... hmm, I think there was something else that I can't remember offhand) to the Animal Pack.I honestly have no idea. I didn't buy the pack, so I'm not up on the history of that piece.
In simple terms... those pieces were not part of the pack when it was released. There was no promise that they would be part of it. Yet, I consider them part of it.
And, no, this is not a direct one-for-one comparison, so I am not saying that if the one is true that the other must be... But I do see them as the same in regards to how I would categorize the package and the later aspects' mutuality. -
Quote:Ahh, see, now that is a very compelling thought!Here's an example as close to this as I've been able to find-
A game about a galaxy far, far away which will be closing down in a few months had several expansions released. The first gave access to space, ships, systems, space combat, all that sort. All amazing stuff, with things people had been asking for for a long time. Going Rogue was released similarly, featuring side switching, new zones, a new faction, new content, things that had been asked for.
This Star Wars game then released more content later on for the planet Kashyyyk. However, at the time, you could not simply travel to Kashyyyk or get a shuttle ticket there. You had to fly there and land manually. Using your space ship.
In that way, that content was gated behind you having the Jump to Lightspeed expansion, but was not part of the expansion. It was a prerequisite.
...
Thank you! And very good analogy.
I was there for all of that, with that game.
That really is an interesting angle. It's a bit strange/different, as Jump To Lightspeed was such an integrated aspect of that game/world and all.
It is vastly different, but it is a great example of an mmorpg requiring a prerequisite for content.
What is interesting is that it is requiring a previous expansion for the new expansion.
As though we would have needed to purchase City Of Villains for Going Rogue... Although, they did merge CoV and CoH for free, long before this... Hmmm.
Very nice precedent.
It doesn't change my simple, straightforward way of looking at what it means if someone requires that I have bought this for access to that. That's a part of it. Full stop.
However... I find this to be a very nice "There are no absolutes" reminder!
It's certainly got me reconsidering things.
Again... this is entirely for sport of discussion and engaging people who see it one way, while I see it another.
I hope people can understand that and read my posts as a casual dialog of interest... not of someone trying to make a point or arguing.
It is difficult when all we have is text among strangers.
Carry on! -
Quote:Just for the record, you are not alone in that regard at all!After reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion I am the only player who bought GR because it was, you know, an expansion to the game I loved. Period. I never gave a flip about Incarnates. The Incarnate System sounded - still does, for that matter - too much like WoW-style raiding for me to want to spend much time on it. I bought GR for Praetoria, and side switching, and new costumes and power sets and all the cool, neat things that come with an expansion. Incarnates were the least part of it.
Personally, I'm staying VIP on both my accounts. I have paid a subscription for over six years so that I would have access to everything the game had to offer, and I plan to continue doing so. I don't want to run up against any walls blocking my way. That was worth $15 a month before, and it's worth $15 now.
Including me! While I knew that you'd need Going Rogue for the future endgame system, I wasn't sure how much I'd enjoy that or whatever. I'm far from a farmer or min/maxer or trial lover or anything (Not that I absolutely despise the trials either).
Anyway...
My part in this discussion is entirely focused on the semantics of things, along with some people's use of words just to avoid offering the crazy people ammunition against reason (which, with the extent of some people's craziness, I can understand!). -
Quote:That's all I was saying....
Yes, I agree that in the past, Incarnates could have been concidered a part of GR under a completely different business model. But that is the past, that is not what we have now.
Quote:What happens if something has more than one prerequisite? If "the" prerequisite is the thing that actually purchased the item in question, what happens when there are two prereqs? Hypothetically speaking, how would you decide when you "bought" the thing then?
I should point out that Freedom is *not* the first time this entire subject was debated. It was debated *at the time* when the Alpha slot sneak peak was pulled from Going Rogue and people complained Going Rogue "promised" the incarnate system. The devs said then that incarnates were never officially part of Going Rogue. It cannot therefore be a surprise now that the devs are continuing to have the exact same position on incarnates and Going Rogue that they expressed before Going Rogue launched.
Regardless... If they insisted on charging us for Going Rogue in order to access that stuff... it was.
John may not have told Sandy about his STDs... But it sure was a part of their intercourse.
Quote:...
If the first is true, as you are asserting, then the second HAS TO be true as well because it is coming to the exact same logical conclusion as the first.
...
Hehe
Not in the way you're talking about it...
Your direct comparison is way off. The particular course would be a part of the total tuition you paid... Or part of the entire process in earning the degree... it is a part of the total credits... The distinction you made is not a direct comparison to an expansion in an mmorpg, haha.
Seriously... If something is gated behind an expansion... No matter what the advertising is, no matter what the timeline is... it is simple reason that it is part of it.
It is completely fine. He calls them "sweets", I call them "candy"... no big deal.
Quote:Because "gated behind" does not mean "part of". I honestly don't understand why you're asking the question, because I see zero lack of clarity there.
Quote:Let's say that next week the devs came out with something that, in order to access this new feature, you were required to have bought City of Villains or the GvE bundle.
Set aside for a moment that they would never do that now because of the addition of F2P.
Would that new feature be "part" of City of Villains? Or would it be a new feature?
To me, that's almost totally unambiguous. It would not be a "part" of CoV. CoV is a package bundle that came out six years ago. A new feature could not be "part" of it.
I see this as no different, except the time scale is shorter. Not so much shorter, though, that it's obvious that the two things in question (GR and Incarnates) were clearly released together. If they had been, I would be of the other opinion. But they weren't released together, even setting aside that the Alpha slot was supposed to be part of GR. iTrials and the later slots were not.
An mmorpg expansion is an umbrella that is not just momentary, but can continue for a long period of time. New content may be gated by it or may not be. If it is... that content falls under that expansion.
Let me ask you a question...
Do you think that the striped cat tail was part of the Animal Pack? -