Doc_Scorpion

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Well, I was hoping the contents of the announcement would match the title.

Market hype and shinies != State of the Game.

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Because, you know... adding things to the game that the players have been wanting for years has nothing to do with the state of the game.

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No, it doesn't, that's marketing hype and shinies.

The "state of the game" is "where the game has been and where is the game going" at the meta level. Questions like "will there finally be a new box or downloadable version in '08". Statements like "our plan is to release x new issues in '08". Etc... etc...

Not "Here's the cool stuff we have done, and a few shinies to keep your attention".

Well, I was hoping the contents of the announcement would match the title.

Market hype and shinies != State of the Game.

http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Task_Forces

Is much better - and you don't have to pointlessly click twice to get at the information.

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Currently, one of the hurdles in addressing e-mail spam...is the fact that the game doesn't know if you are on a Trial or Regular account.


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LH, I find this pill a little hard to swallow...if the game knows how many 3 month badges I have then it knows that I don't have a trial account.

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Ah yes... The ol' "I am just a regular user and know far better than the actual staff how the code works and interacts" routine.

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I've yet to see one person offer up a reason NOT to allow a cosmetic nod to buying early at full price,

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Have you been actually reading the posts or just spinning (as you accuse others of) just those parts that support your worldview?

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Yeah. I did. Why don't you quote for me the one you are thick enough to think is a valid addressal of a marketing tool and not a facile reduction of the issue to a temper tantrum?

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An interesting spinning target you offer there - first you claim there haven't been any. And now you essentially state "well yeah, there have seen some, I just didn't like them".


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Buyer incentives in an MMO don't really tie into a "world view", just so you know, mate, as seriously as you may take it.


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The belief that your are entitled to such incentives does however tie into a worldview. I thought that since you toss big words around with such abandon, that you actually understood the meaning of them - my mistake.

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Ah yes, the good old MMO tradition - spinning the slightest and most cryptic of Dev statements into ironclad proof that what you want to happen is already a given... They just won't talk about it yet.

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"which gives a nod to the idea"

Nice try, though.

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Nice spin and dodge. Does Parry follow or proceed?

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I've yet to see one person offer up a reason NOT to allow a cosmetic nod to buying early at full price,

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Have you been actually reading the posts or just spinning (as you accuse others of) just those parts that support your worldview?

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"Because we want to accuse you of being a greedy, self-centered entitlement-obsessed prig" is not a reason.

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It's fascinating that keeps getting brought up, and somewhow folks who believe they should be recompensed can't actually refute it. Nor do they bother to try.

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I've yet to see one person offer up a reason NOT to allow a cosmetic nod to buying early at full price,

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Have you been actually reading the posts or just spinning (as you accuse others of) just those parts that support your worldview?

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What kills me is that Ex has already issued a statement which gives a nod to the idea. It's "sekret" but something is in the pipeline... yet the kneejerk reaction continues when the devs themselves support the marketing model. How self defeating.

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Ah yes, the good old MMO tradition - spinning the slightest and most cryptic of Dev statements into ironclad proof that what you want to happen is already a given... They just won't talk about it yet.

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*baffeled & shakes head*

I completely agree with Pax. Those of us who have invested in both CoH, CoV, preorder, DVD collectors editions, GvE pack, etc. should get thrown some sort of bone.

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Why? You got what you paid for from each and every one of them. The 'rewards' being given out don't slight you in the least.

Don't give me that 'customer service' song and dance. It's a bogus argument because it relies on the assumption that NCSoft should 'make it up' to you for doing something wrong or slighting you. They have done neither.

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All of that costs money. And since that extra overhead is not being paid for by a steady influx of new subscribers, that means a necessary overhaul to the Business Model for CoX.

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Of course the option that the overheard might be covered by the current subscriber base is one that seems to have occurred to you. Maybe their new business model is a more slender profit margin - but guaranteeing it by maintaining the existing usebase.

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I'm telling you this from the point of view of a CEO, myself.

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Your point of view is one who wants to cry dooooom!, but lacks enough confidence in his convictions to be willing to stand behind them. A CEO should review all the options - not just the ones that support his preordained conclusion.

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The issue is solely the 72-96 hours from my purchase of CoV to it being given out for free. That's a pretty expensive 72-96 hours compared to the rest of the time. I do not think it is beyond the pale for NCSoft to look at that small segment (say within 30-60 days of the activation) and addressing those users accordingly. That is just good solid customer service.

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No, it's somebody trying to scam something for free that they don't deserve.

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Say what? How do you figure?

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You bought the game - you got what you paid for. (And what you paid for is far more than what they are giving away for free. Consider the free month of play and the extra character slots for example.)

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How is that a scam? I'm a returning customer who decided to purchase the game right before an unknown event that would have saved me money.

I am a returning customer who was 3-4 days on the wrong side of a major announcement. Like I said, I don't think that it is beyond the pale that NCSoft address that admittedly small segment. That's not a scam, that's an honest, tempered concern.

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So what? I buy stuff all the time that goes on sale or clearance the next week. I don't run down the store complaining I was badly treated - I bought what I wanted, when I wanted, and paid the going rate.

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What's beyond the pale and certainly not tempered is the responses from people such as yourself.

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Don't want a response - don't post. It's been like that since the dawn of the BBS era.

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Business change hands in two situations:

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(Doooom! snipped.)

If the business had changed hands, your post would have some relevance.

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Always good to meet a fellow UO vet!

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Still have my house near Minoc and in Malas - eventually my wife will notice and I'll have to move into my bankbox and mothball the accounts.

<UO discussion deleted at Lighthouse's request.>

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For me, I've had the feeling that since Statesman left "the powers that be" have been treating CoH and CoV as 1 game. The press release just confirms that the suit wearing bean counters think that way.

For the record: IMO What is good for CoH, isn't necessarily good for CoV. The games should be thought of separately, and should have fully staffed teams assigned to each.

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If that happens, then things like PvP between the sides and Co-Op zones (both highly desired) get Much Much harder. I can't see anything in the recent history that didn't benefit both sides - or what you could add to one side that wouldn't also benefit the other.

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PS: So MUO gets Statesman, Synapse and Manticore, and CoH gets Back Ally Brawler and Positron? And you call that a even deal?

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Given the inactivity of the former three and the activity of the latter two... Yeah, it's even.

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I used to play a game, lets call it Ultimus Origin. The game was made by a couple folks who had made a bunch of similar themed games in the past. The leader (lets call him King England) had a vision, and he made it reality. The land was like honey, and the sky like gold. Then, the King did tire and he sold the game (and his name) to another company (lets call them E-Aye} for many gold pieces.

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E-Aye owned Ultimus Origin from Day One, no matter how much people try to pretend otherwise.

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The game it's self withered, dried and lost all forward momentum, but still lives on, played by a few die hards, and their dial-up connections.

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Ultimus Origin players (circa July 2006): approx 140,000

CoH players (circa July 2006): approx 160,000

( Source. )

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You must have missed this whole thing.

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(UO:X cancellation letter snipped.)

That's an interesting side step from your original claim - but again, the facts don't bear you out. That drop started a year before - with the horribly flawed released of AoS in 2003. Any loss from the cancellation of UO:X was incidental to the wholesale slide already in progress, at best it just steepened the curve. (Not to mention that the new BOD systems, Arties, and Marties was busily destroying crafting about the same time. That lead to more than few cancellations in their own right.)

It's also worth noting that the steepest decline also happened as WoW was hitting the streets.

Relevant dates: (Note the first two in particular.)

EA purchases Origin Systems: 9/1992

Ultima Online commences development: 1995

Ultima Online commences playerbase decline (from which it never recovers): 2nd Q 2003

EA disbands Origin: 2/2004

UO:X cancelled: 6/2004

(And no, I didn't miss it. I wuz there.)

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I wouldn't compare this to the SWG thing, it's much closer to when EASports bought Ultima Online.

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EA purchases Origin Systems: 9/1992

Ultima Online commences development: 1995

Ultima Online commences playerbase decline (from which it never recovers): 2nd Q 2003

EA disbands Origin: 2/2004

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So... is that a doom post? If so, it's not very doomy. I'd be overjoyed if the City games took eleven years to suffer an unrecoverable playerbase decline, closing their doors after 12 years.

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No, it's not a doom post. Just correcting some ongoing myths being spread about the decline of UO.

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I wouldn't compare this to the SWG thing, it's much closer to when EASports bought Ultima Online.

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EA purchases Origin Systems: 9/1992

Ultima Online commences development: 1995

Ultima Online commences playerbase decline (from which it never recovers): 2nd Q 2003

EA disbands Origin: 2/2004

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iii) Statesman as the signature character will be determined, if I had my druthers it would be something the Community Team would acquire rights to, one can dream right?

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States should continue as a signature character - and appear as such in game in missions and taskforces, etc... But he should never appear 'live' again.

But the redname? No, that too should be retired with honor.

That name and character belongs to Jack Emmert (no matter whose IP it legally is), and to see it used as a sockpuppet (no offense, I just cannot think of a better term) is an insult to him and to the collective intelligence of the players.

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I used to play a game, lets call it Ultimus Origin. The game was made by a couple folks who had made a bunch of similar themed games in the past. The leader (lets call him King England) had a vision, and he made it reality. The land was like honey, and the sky like gold. Then, the King did tire and he sold the game (and his name) to another company (lets call them E-Aye} for many gold pieces.

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E-Aye owned Ultimus Origin from Day One, no matter how much people try to pretend otherwise.

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The game it's self withered, dried and lost all forward momentum, but still lives on, played by a few die hards, and their dial-up connections.

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Ultimus Origin players (circa July 2006): approx 140,000

CoH players (circa July 2006): approx 160,000

( Source. )

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The issue is solely the 72-96 hours from my purchase of CoV to it being given out for free. That's a pretty expensive 72-96 hours compared to the rest of the time. I do not think it is beyond the pale for NCSoft to look at that small segment (say within 30-60 days of the activation) and addressing those users accordingly. That is just good solid customer service.

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No, it's somebody trying to scam something for free that they don't deserve.

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okay if you guys are in the carolinas I am so there.

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Sorry, Washington state here, though once I'm done with my software development classes in June, I'm hoping to have a good reason to move to Mountain View. ;

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WA state here too.. But I am from North Carolina....

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What it seems like is you're saying,
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"Hey! you don't own X .. Well here, now you do." ... "and you.. oh.. you've already got both games.. well I guess you're SOL.."

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Does anyone else see how unfair this is ? I'm seriously feeling unappreciated here..

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Nah. I own GvE and I don't feel unappreciated or unfairly treated at all. OTOH, I'm old enough that grew up before the current culture of entitlement settled in.

Or, it could just be that I grew up.

Post deleted by Doc_Scorpion

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But therin lies part of the issue. When you provide support, you're providing support for a premise that has been presented. The reasons for the support are already available for scrutiny.

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Not true. "I think this will be good for blasters" gives a reason for support, "/signed" does not. Different people might support a given proposal for different reasons - and in any rational world, those reasons are important for analyzing the strength of the proposal. (Because "this will be good for blasters" can be rebutted, "/signed" cannot.)

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If you're goin to disagree with the premise, you have to provide the reasons because they have not already been presented. Simply posting "No" doesn't do that.

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Not true. Using your logic "no" expands to "I don't like this idea and don't think it will provide the benefits it presumes to or accomplish its stated goals" as much as "yes" expands to "I do like this idea and think it will be beneficial and accomplish its stated goals". Either both possible responses (in the binary thought experiments were are studying here) expand - or neither does. You can't have it both ways.

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Really what she's asking IMHO isn't stifling or draconian. It's asking for posters to be constructive in the forums used to gather bug reports, suggestions, feedback, etc. Even criticism can be constructive, so long as it's not flamey.

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'No' and '/unsigned' are every bit as constructive and useful as 'yes' and '/signed'. Yet one can lead to banning, and the other seemingly does not.

Something is very wrong here.

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Not defending it either, but there are plenty of motives for wanting a fast trip to the top. Contrary to popular opinion, many ebayers aren't newbies- they're veteran players that seek an alternate high-level character to play without the burden of playing up that far. Its the level 50 tank that decides he'd like to try the level 50 game as a healer, but doesn't want the grind.

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That, IMO is actually worse than a newbie - because you can frequently educate a newbie. But a level 50 tank playing a level 50 healer is an absolute menance - because not only does he not know how to play a defender*, odds are he thinks (because he is a vet) he doesn't need to know how.

*Regardless of the AT, each one plays different - and it takes a while to learn the reflexes.

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One particular reason is simply this: our fighting men and women stationed overseas. I know several of them (at least) that LOVE City of Heroes, and have characters ranging the full level spectrum. If someone is called away/deployed, more than likely, they are going to shut down their account for the duration of their duty overseas, since they will not have access to play in such places as Iraq or Afghanistan

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Then they should be treated like anyone other deadbeat who doesn't pay for his or her account. (And I should point out the blinders you have on - there is much more to the military than ground pounders who go to Iraq or Afghanistan.)

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(plus that vaunted poverty level pay scale the military has doesn't help one's budget while deployed).

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Contrary to what you hear on the news - the military pay scale is in most areas more than adequate to live on if you watch your budget. You aren't going to get rich, but you are far from starving. (I know many sailors who do live on just their military pay.)

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So imagine their surprise when they return home, as many have after 14 months of extended duty to find their favorite characters names taken from them.

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Imagine their surprise when they don't pay for their house or car for 14 months - and they return home and find them gone.

And give me any crap about 'disrespecting our service men and women'. I've been there and done that, I've earned my T-shirt. And I did it back when being in the service wasn't 'cool'.

Derek Lyons
Fire Control Technician (Ballistic Missile) 2nd Class (Submarine Qualified)
United States Navy, Submarine Service, 1981-1991