Death_Mage

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Careful there... that sounds dangerously like the "Devs hate villains!" mindset.

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I firmly believe the devs overlook the Villain side of the game. I don't think they necessarily hate it, I just think they don't take it into consideration that often. Hell, they won't even acknowledge that it IS a separate entity. They treat it like just another Issue added to CoH, therefore they don't need to expand on it anymore. I don't think they're doing this becuase they don't like Villains, I think they are just so damned zoned in on City of HEROES that Villains just gets overlooked.

As a friend of mine is fond of saying: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." In this case, I think "ignorance" is more appropriate, however.

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I really doubt they would ever consider merging the PVE sides of the game because it would pretty much make the classifications of "hero" and "villain" meaningless. If you can save a bunch of innocent civilians one moment, then rob a bank the next, what the heck are you? No, in the world of silver-age comics upon which this game was primarily based, good guys did the good deeds and bad guys did the bad deeds.

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I sincerely hope you are right. Silver and Golden age, the lines between good and evil are clearly drawn. But look at the last few additions of the game. They've been trying to erase that line already. It's a bad trend. "Villains" already CAN go rescue a bunch of innocents then turn around and rob a bank. Co-op RWZ for the lose.

The games, BOTH of them, need new content unique to each side. This includes play styles and mission types that the other does not have. Giving Heroes Safeguard missions was one of the biggest mistakes the devs have made. Mayhem missions were about the only thing in the game that let villains actually feel like villains. Turning around and giving a half-[censored] version to Heroes when Villains STILL are lacking in many of the basic features Heroes have was a bad precedent, which they've continued to uphold.

Do the devs HATE CoV? No. They just don't think it exists.

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They day the games are fully merged, that heroes and villains all have access to all of the zones etc., is the day I cancel my account. It is a bad idea all around.

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becuase you will have more people to play with, you will be able to lvl faster and see more content?

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Level faster? Bull. See more content? Bull. As everyone is so quick to point out, it's one game, the accounts are merged, everyone has access to either side.

No, it's just a BAD IDEA all around to fully combine the games. Having unique content in each game is a good thing, it's more reason to actually play them, and despite how many people refuse to accept it (devs included) they are different games, they play differently, they should BE different. Heroes != Villains. It's a damn shame the devs can't see past the "hero" side of things.

See what happens when we let this thread idle? Come on people, 100 pages or bust!

I do NOT want AT sharing.

As for cross over.... I'm torn.

I do have chars that are best suited for fallen heroes or even redeemed villains, but I fear it'll just end up as shared ATs. In effect, the end result would be no different than merging. I mean, even if you had requirements like "Must be level 50, reduces you to level 1, makes you earn *x the amount of exp to level again (* being the number of times crossed over +1)"... you'll STILL have people jumping sides and PLing like crazy.

Maybe in CoH2, if the game was designed with that premise from the ground up. But CoH/CoV weren't. There is no way they could get it to work with the current system. It would take MASSIVE rewrites to much of the code, as well as some serious rebalancing.

It's not worth the effort on the dev's part to do it right. And I sure as hell want nothing to do with a half-[censored] attempt that would only end up more frustrating and game-breaking than anything else.

No, let's let the devs focus on something realistic.

They day the games are fully merged, that heroes and villains all have access to all of the zones etc., is the day I cancel my account. It is a bad idea all around.

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And if they transfered zones over and revamped them for CoV, where does that leave CoH? Do you give them the revamped zone? Leave it as-is?

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You lose the zone. Your access points from in the city are closed down. No char can enter the zone. Chars that were in the zone eventually get relocated when they log back in.

You don't want the damn zone anyway. You guys [censored] and moan that there's nothing to do there. So fine, your "empty" zone is gone, CoV has something new to do. Mmmkthnxbaibai.

Yea, becuase you know the devs wouldn't POSSIBLY make ANY changes to hazard zones if they give them to the other side of the game. Despite the fact that you guys are sitting there claiming about how the devs know better, you blindly insist that it would just be a straight port, no attempt to revamp or fix the zone, no attempt to add anything to it, nope. Devs wouldn't POSSIBLY do that if they transfered zones over.

Give it a rest guys. You don't want the zones. We do want new zones. Why are you fighting so hard to deny Villains ANYTHING?

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Can't see that I see your point. Your trying to compare Mango's to Steak. Just doesn't work.

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Group One: Issues Eight to Eleven didn't give villains any content!
Group Two: Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't content.
Group One: How about a couple hazard zones get introduced to villains?
Group Two: Hazard zones aren't content!

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It seems to be that group two's problem isn't about what is or isn't content, they'd just be mad if Villains got hazard zones that Heroes already have because that wouldn't be adding something to HERO side, and that just won't do.

That's ok, Terra. We all know that you cannot accept that someone else could have a different opinion than your own, and that if you personally like something than everyone else had better feel the same way or else they don't count. How DARE someone have characters with different priorities than yours, hmm?

I would just like to point out that everyone [censored] about the "wasted content" of CoV hazard zones has only proven the point of the Villains players who feel that I8-11 have been "wasted content" for CoV.

Well, what *I* would like to see is villains usurping a few zone from the heroes, zones that are outside of Paragon City proper. Letting villains into the hero hazard zones, especially zones behind the war walls, makes no sense (as you pointed out). The Shadow Shard is a good candidate for that.

I would not mind seeing more zones where heroes and villains interact... but NOT like RWZ. With the exception of Hamidon, I don't think we need any more co-op zones. I don't think we need any more flat out PvP zones either... although it really doesn't make sense for the zones not to be.

Then again, we already HAVE zones where heroes and villains effect each other. PvP zones already have the missions to give either side buffs or debuffs. Siren's Call has the bounties and the street brawls. Does anyone actually participate in those? We've got the pillboxes etc. at Recluse's Victory.

I wouldn't mind seeing a more King-of-the-Hill type PvP zone. Players can run missions to open or lock down areas of the map, so that people can participate in the zone without necessarily having to PvP. People in the PvP part of the zone can make changes that effect the missions. Would work well in a prison setting, where villains are trying to break it open, heroes are trying to lock it down, inside of missions doors could be opened or closed depending on what's going on outside, convicts could be released to fight heroes, guard houses could be opened to fight villains, sections could be locked down (with a way to open them from inside the door in case someone's on that side when they close) that could provide people to tag along with the party, stuff like that.

I still want to see faction specific contacts inside of RWZ. Longbow working separate from Vanguard. Villains trying to help the Rikti.

I'd also like to see some villains getting into Boomtown. It's a hazard zone that's at the edge of the city walls. It's already wrecked to hell. Heroes already complain about the place, and villains already have a mission that takes us in there to hamper the rebuilding process. I would love to see an issue where Villains first gain access to the zone, and later, usurp it from the heroes. Heroes don't seem to want that zone anyway.

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I have no problem supporting more zones for villain side, I just don't see the value in the new zones being hazard zones.

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it's not going to happen, so there's nothing to argue about.
But villains getting access to hazard zones would be an improvement over villains not getting anything.

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In your opinion. Hazard Zones on CoV would be a huge waste of code. I play CoV more often then CoH and I would HATE the idea of the Devs spending time creating wastelands like hazard zones rather then adding additional SFs or new storylines or QoL improvements or bug fixes or lag reduction.

Any new CoV content/fixes > New CoV Hazard Zone

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I think what most people meant was giving villains access to the Hazard zones.

Quite frankly, that'd be rad provided they update them with villain content. It'd give villains a way to interact indirectly with heroes. Like, both sides throw monkey wrenches in the other's plans with the content.

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Wouldn't that be nice? Something other than the way the PvP zones are handled though. Villains do some missions, cause more problems for heroes. Heroes do some missions, cause some problems for villains. Villains complain that they get the raw end of the deal because there are more hero players. Heroes complain that they get the raw end of the deal becuase they don't play in hazard zones which are now filled with villains who've never had a chance to use 'em before. It'll be magical.

Well, I'd love to hear the reasoning for it too. I mean, IMHO, that is what SHOULD be released every issue. Sure, have the big overall scope, adding the big stuff, the new gameplay mechanics, the next big story... but there should be small additions all over as well. Adding a contact here or there, or just new mission arcs. I'd like to see a new power set every issue as well, although that may be pushing it to some.

Really though, I think if they got into the habit of figuring out new contacts or new power sets every issue, they'd get it working smoothly and quickly in a short amount of time. It shouldn't (SHOULDN'T) be a massive undertaking to add some of the smaller content to the game every issue. It would give everyone more to do, more incentive to play chars old and new, and vastly increase the perceived size of the game.

Now, a lot of issues have BEEN new zones, new contacts, new missions etc. I realize that, it's good. I'm saying sprinkle some new stuff in old zones as well, liven them up. It doesn't take a complete zone revamp to add one new contact... does it?

I am completely behind you on this. Throwing a new contact or three down every new issue into pre-existing zones doesn't seem like a huge undertaking to me. Yes, you need to come up with a model for the guy (and this can take time, but some don't need to), you need to make sure the contact fits the zone, fills a hole, or whatever, you need to make sure the stories are alright...

But really, the actual process of adding missions or a contact shouldn't be that hard. I would be very surprised if they didn't have a tool built for easy mission creation. It's a quick way to add content to a game, and it adds up fast.

I'd like them to take it further, in the efforts to bring CoV up to par, and have 'em just release a full new zone to the Rogue Isles every issue - one not tied to the issue story arc, just something to help the villains get their alt. path set up. You throw in one each issue, you'd be DONE by now. Although I know that this is a lot more work tha just sprinkling contacts around.

If that's the case, then there is absolutely no reason RWZ couldn't have had faction specific contacts. The technology IS there.

I was thinking about the problem with contacts being just CONTACTS and disregarding factions. I was going to bring up PvP zones, but it hit me that in the PvP zones, the contacts are all surrounded by drones, thus making it nearly impossible for the other side to hit one.

Nearly impossible. But I think it could be done. Warburg's villain contact has a hole in the drone line, if someone cam from the water behind the flier they MIGHT have a chance to reach the contact in time, especially if they went as one large group to keep the drones busy (those shots do have a recharge time you know). Has anyone tried this before, taking the villain PvP quests as a hero or vice versa?

Guess you don't like Fire/ brutes either? Or Stone/? Or SS/?

Giving Blasters Unstoppable Jr. is unforgivable.

Well, I DON'T want to see Corrupters or Dominators getting Unstoppable. I want to see more variety, though. Like I said, Blasters have a wide range of powerful options. Villains have... a choice of summons.

As it should have. Giving Blasters Unstoppable is unforgivable.

I have no basic problem with the PPPs. I DO have the standard complaints (can't respec 'em, no variety, etc.) As for story wise, they could just as easily be stolen/copied from the patrons. In the case of Hell Hound, Mako didn't give me the powers, I beat the crap out of him and took 'em. :P

And looking at the EPPs, they do seem to have more variety, thus, more good powers. As a brute, I pretty much had my choice of colors for ranged attacks and a pet. Whoopdee doo. But it's the final power that interests me the most. After all, that's SUPPOSED to be the "powerful" one. The one we have to dedicate three powers to get to. For nearly every class, they seem useful. I DO like having my pet around as a Brute.

But Blasters.... Wow. Let's see, they get a quick heal, a self rez, an AOE nuke, a massive ranged attack, or (and this is my favorite) Unstoppable. Corrupters and Dominators (the Villain side ranged damage classes) get their choice of.... a summon, a summon, a summon, or if they REALLY want it.. a summon.

Terra, would you support that additions from this point on that left the current "blue side" exactly as is while updating only red side?

If CoV and CoH really are just one in the same to some of you, then why are you fighitng so hard against more CoV specific features?

As it has been brought up many times, the devs do not see CoV has a full game. They see it as an expansion. This only proves the point of the red side players who want more content.

Because CoV is not considered it's own entity, but merely an add-on to CoH, no further work need *** be done to it in the dev's mind. Obviously, if people who play CoV want CoH content, they should simply play CoH. After all, CoV is just another aspect of CoH, therefore everyone already has access to both side, everyone already has access to all of the content, it's done. There's no more need to add new content to CoV than there is to add new content to King's Row.

And that mindset is a big problem. They are not the same game, they are not treated as the same game. You cannot even compare this to "other faction-based MMOs" because other faction-based MMOs are still in the same world entirely. Someone from one faction CAN go directly to the other faction, PVP etc. Don't get me wrong, this is NOT something I want to see CoX become. Its bad enough how many "villain" style characters - names/costumes/descriptions/themes/etc. are in Paragon City. Not to mention that PvP in this game is pretty poorly done. It would be a nightmare if suddenly all zones were PvP. Even without PvP, many heroes seeing a villain in their city would find it immersion breaking. The game is simply not designed for it, and would take some major retooling to get it to work right.

Which leaves some characters without being able to access some content. That in itself is not a bad thing, I think there SHOULD be exclusive content. But there should be a more even distribution of exclusive content. Heroes need mission types that are heroic, stuff villains won't do. Likewise, villains need their own mission type, gameplay features, that simply aren't heroic. And there should NOT be an alternate version created for the other side, such as Safeguards to compare to Mayhem Missions.

But CoV is still missing some of the basics. Yea, there's a lot of talk about VEATs being released soon. Too little, too late. It's been two years, we should have had them no later than I9. Hell, they SHOULD have been in I8. But now they're talking about not having them until I12, maybe even I13. Meanwhile, to support the SEPARATED GAMES idea, the devs themselves have continued to keep CoV characters from unlocking the Hero ATs.

I said it before: It was the heroes who cried about I7 that make it so that now, neither side can get good, unique content. You spoiled it for everyone else. Now all we can get is half-[censored] shared content becuase "it's all one game anyway".

Finally, as for the straw man that blue siders as so font of bringing up - that they don't want to see a full CoV dedicated issue.. NOBODY HAS BEEN SUGGESTING IT. Nobody wants to see heroes be completely slighted. They need SOMETHING added every issue as well. They need new content just like anyone else. But we on the villain side do need to be caught up. It's been two years since launch, more than enough time to add exclusive content to CoV to compare to the exclusive content to CoH. There have been enough issues that if they had added just ONE full zone every issue, we'd have a second major zone path by now. There has DEFINITELY been more than enough time and updates to add enough strike forces to cover the gap. But if any of that were added, you'd hear the heroes come to the board in droves and complain that villains got something new and they didn't get a zone or task force build just for them and it's sooooooooooooooooooo unfair that not every scrap of code made for this game isn't entirely dedicated to them and them alone.

City of Villains still has it's own .exe. It still has it's own title screen. it still has it's own characters, it's own content, it's own game. We are not just another update you damn heroes got for your game.