DarkCurrent

I'd play a Nictus in a heartbeat. I never saw the problem with Khelds personally.

Regarding the Avilans... I thought they'd tie into Swan's story somehow considering she had wings before wings were in game. I figured she was one of them. Too bad we'll never find out.

In regards to the list's purpose, I thought you'd already identified that with this post:

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Well, the time has come for the final draft before I repost the list, ask for it to be stickied, and ask the devs to come and look at it. So, it's your last chance to give it a good going over! The next post is the new version of the list, and all the changes are in the post after that.

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The implication of the bolded section is you're hoping the devs will look at the issues and make changes or justify their decisions as 'working as intended'.

But if the purpose is providing an overview of AT challenges, then rewording the AoE immob section is in order. Something to the effect of "don't use your AoE immob as an alpha". As it currently reads, the immob section identifies the AoE as a flawed power. As if there's something 'wrong' with it that needs 'fixing'.

As I've argued, there's nothing wrong with the power other than its use requires sound tactics. If that's an issue, then you could probably double the size of the list as there are plenty of powers that will get you killed if you use them improperly or in an untimely fashion.

Last point I'll make. AoE immobs have gained in recognition for their ability to slot procs, their use in gaining recharge IO bonuses, and for their potential in multiple AV encounters. All of those areas argue for these powers to actually be useful in many builds. These new uses were not available at the time of the original list and warrant a fresh look at the immobs.

'Evolution or extinction' is a proverb I'm found of and fits the bill here.

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I found that odd as well. Mass Immobs are a control, they are great for Teams, not for solo play.

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The issue is that they are great for some teams, and usually only the best ones. If you use them on a large and inexperienced level 2 team, when they become available, then you are quite likely to die.

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Thems the breaks I suppose.

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That's the purpose of the issues list, pointing out the breaks so they can be fixed.

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I don't see how you can 'fix' this power to work better for dominators, though. Like I said, it does what it's supposed to do. There is no problem with it like there was with flares being slower than comparable tier one blasts.

An AoE immob is an AoE immob. It immobs large numbers of targets. Unfortunately, it draws a lot of aggro because it's a control + mez attack. There's nothing to be done about that other than learning when to use it, if at all.

Again, if the issue is the DPE (and here's again where perhaps an argument comparing dom use vs troller use would hold), then I'd say that'd be something everyone could support.

But presenting an AoE immob problem as "if I use it and I'm inexperienced, then I die" won't get it looked at by devs. That's like arguing something should be done about Rain of Fire because corruptors who open with it die.

That's survival of the fittest. It's something you learn not to do very quickly or you move on to a different build.

Why is this...

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AoE immobilizes are problematic. Since they appear in most of the Dominator primaries, and usually before pool powers are available, the AoE immobilizes should be a staple of the control sets. However, they are a common cause of frustration for new Dominators, and typically skipped or rarely used by more experienced Dominators. The specific problems with these powers are:
- They generate a significant amount of aggro for the caster. In CoV, especially at low levels, there is very little effective aggro management, so the AoE immobilize is very likely to cause a large return attack.
- They make affected mobs less controllable. The granted Knock* protection, damage over time, and immobilization mean that many control effects will no longer affect them, namely knock*, fear, sleep, and "run away" effects.
- While they can be used to force enemies to use ranged attacks, the Dominator's low hit points mean those attacks are still very dangerous.
The reason this problem is more pronounced for Dominators than Controllers is that Controllers:
- can take advantage of immobilization to keep foes within area debuffs.
- can team with Tankers who can manage aggro.
- do extra damage against immobilized foes with Containment.

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...on the issue list?

There is no 'solution' as the power works as it's supposed to. It immobilizes large numbers of targets. That's not broken. And comparing it to controller usage is irrelevant as doms are not controllers.

It seems the complaint is AoE immobs should come with a warning label. Well that's what the forums are for:

"Don't take your aoe immobilize if you're new to the AT."

Now if the complaint is that the endurance cost is way too high for what you get out of it (now here's where comparing to trollers would be appropriate as immob leads to containment, which we don't get so why does it cost so much?), then I'd be all for that.

I didn't see the difference in AoE hold number caps dom vs controller listed in the general issues. Anyway, it's an issue and support for it being changed to 16 can be found HERE Notice the name of the poster who says all AoE controls should be 16.

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While it's a nitpick for an otherwise great set, is it worth noting that in addition to the listed "tends to get in the way" complaint for Plant Control's Spirit Tree, the tree's +regen effect is so small as to be underpowered?

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It's identical to Triage Beacon in terms of regen bonus, and that seems to get a fair bit of use for MMs. (Still won't make me pick it up on my Plant Dom though ... it's immobile ... eww!

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If you want to make an issue out of Spirt Tree, I think the immobility is the point to argue change for. Either let that sucker run around like a pet, or change the power to Spirit Moss and let it be a PB AoE aura (you glow green). There is precedent for changing an immobile pet to a mobile one (see Dark Miasma >> Dark Servant way back around I3).

I think a mobile +regen would fit perfectly with the dominator AT that is constantly moving from range to melee. Makes a lot more sense that an MM or Corruptor would have the static +regen as they're hanging back at range most of the time.

I have two issues for the list after running with my Ice/Psi and Grav/Ice a bunch lately.

First, for the Icy Assault>>Ice Sword Circle. This is the ONLY power in the set that does NOT accept slow IO sets. The power takes generic slow IOs, but not slow sets. Why not?


Second, for Ice Control>>Flash Freeze. The range on this power is horrible. It's only 60 feet. Mass Hypnosis is 80 feet, and Spore Burst is 70 feet. Why is ice's shorter? This is supposed to be an alpha control or 'oh crap' power, but you practically have to sit in the target's lap to put him to sleep. That's not good for a power that aggros and does not take out bosses (sans domination). It also has the longest activation time of the three powers... 2.37 vs. 2.03 (mind) vs. 1.37 (plant). On top of that, Spore Burst costs less endurance (13 vs 15.6). Lastly, it's the latest arriving of the 3... lvl 18 vs 8 vs 6.

If the excuse is 'because it does damage' then someone needs their head examined. It does piddly damage... 3.61 lethal + 3.61 cold at level 50. Even max slotting for damage, you'd be doing nothing more than tickling a target. And furthermore, damage + mez = more aggro for the dom than just damage or mez alone. I'd trade that wimpy damage for another 20 feet of range any day.

So in summary, you get the shortest range, slowest activation, latest arrival, and extra aggro all for a smidgeon of damage. This power needs a range increase to 80 feet at the very least. I'd like to see a damage boost (triple) if it's going to aggro as well.

The saddest thing about this post and the dozens of others just like it over the last several months is that the hours of time spent reading and posting about how your dominator is weak could be spent playing new builds or improving old tactics.

I feel sorry for you.

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Further testing on my end indicates that there's a "timer" of some kind on the debt. Seems to be 60 seconds or 2 minutes. After that, no debt.

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That's just staggeringly bad.

In under 60 seconds: Fight a mob. Get whittled down to 2% health. Defeat the mob. Heal yourself back up to 99% health. Get one-shotted by a stalker. Get 98% of the FULL DEBT for an OUTDOOR DEFEAT.

By what demented standard is this acceptable?

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Where this system is a 'benefit' is in the flip side to your scenario. Say you're hovering over a fight and some stalker ASes you and stuns you. You land in a pack of Hewer Elites who proceed to split your head in two. Old system, full debt. New system, 5% debt.

Now, which of the two scenarios is more likely to occur? Well I guess that depends on what you're doing in the zone. In sirens you may very well be battling at hotspots and getting a lot of npc damage. Then some driveby corruptor scourges you. Bam, huge debt. Or you might be there for the pvp and the opposite happens. You get clobbered by some brute, run for your life, but get caught by some Tsoo boss. Bam, a sliver of debt.

I guess that's fair. But I do think healing should erase the debt equal in proportion to the damage sources (npc vs pc).

But like someone else said, it seems they could be spending their coding time elsewhere. Perhaps making the bounty system proportional across teams to minimize loses to KSing.

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So, I don't know if any of you have been reading the thread aboutt he Recluse SF contest, but below is a post that just went up in that thread. I'm pasting it in here becuase I think it's a pretty solid example of exactly what the majority of the Dom community has been worried about happening:

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It just shows how ignorant a lot of people are about dominators' abilities. My dom eats AVs for lunch... with domination up. That's the key. Get dom up. Of course, people can debate that that shouldn't be necessary, but hey. It is what it is. That SF screams for dominators if you ask me. FIVE lvl 54 heroes? Only way to take them out is to mez a couple perma-like. If anyone here thinks an ice/dark corruptor can do that, you've been drinking the water at Duff Gardens again.

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Many of the things that people are pointing out as to why doms do so badly in PvP also apply to PvE. PvP just points up the problems better because you cannot use player skill to overcome the problems with a toon in PvP, since PvP is so unforgiving.

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I don't want to debate the PvE issue again here (been done on the dom forum). I'd like to stick to the PvP problems. But to address your concern about doms effectiveness on large teams in PvE I will agree that it's a challenge pre-SOs. Doms cannot take on large spawns until they have their AoE controls slotted with 3 or more SOs, which doesn't happen until your late 20s, early 30s. That's because AoE controls were nerfed a couple issues ago, and doms have only 80% hold time compared to controllers. Without SOs, that translates into literally 10 second hold times vs. large spawns that will aggro to you the instant they are freed.

However, my level 40 mind/psi laughs at large spawns because she can layer mass sleep, fear, confuse and hold. Between those 4 powers, nothing is going to touch her save a boss... and even he gets held a moment later once she stacks a mez (hold, confuse, sleep easily... fear with the presence pool).

Now there are other primaries that have nowhere near that much AoE control. My lvl 33 fire/fire dom is a great example. He has a ranged AoE stun and a PB AoE hold. The former is pretty effective, but the latter is high risk as an alpha.

Now, apply these AoEs in a PvP situation and it's a totally different story. All the AoE controls have an ACC penalty, high end cost, and uber long recharge. Plus, most targets do not stay in tight groups to maximize the effect:cost ratio. Or if they do, those targets are usually protected by layers of AoE defense (bubbles, shields, clouds, etc) that your piddly group mez won't break through.

From my mind dom's perspective, her only effective primary powers are TK and terrify. However, I'm reading grumblings all over the melee-dedicated forums that these powers are too powerful, so I won't be surprised when they get nerfed. Mass Confusion is horrible... it always misses and the duration is minimal, if it even takes effect.

From my fire dom's perspective, he has no useful primary power aside from his single target hold. Oh, and maybe smoke. His AoEs are the most resisted in the game: immob, stun, and kb. The fire imps are cool, but they tend to aggro npcs or not attack the biggest threat to the dominator.

So what's a dom to do? I really think mez protection powers need to be cut back to where they used to be. For instance, CM never used to protect from confusion. Now it's a panacea for every mez in the game. And stinking empaths get it at lvl 12 if memory serves. When do villains get their mez protection? Thaw and Clarify aren't until the 20s. And that's IF you can find a corruptor who took them. And dispersion bubble? Good luck finding an MM bubbler who'll actually protect his teammates over his pets.

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I won't lie, I've done pretty well as a Dominator, both on live and on test (obviously being better on test). However, that's largely due to the ignorance, poor preparation, and lack of competency in my opposition, along with my pretty good reflexes and total lack of lag. People might say, "But Dominators do fine on teams," but what they generally mean by that is, "Dominators do well when they're in an organized team [censored] unorganized people," because against an organized, well built team mezzing ANYONE is incredibly difficult.

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Mal,

I used to think the same way as you. Before the upcoming I7 nerf to detoggles, I knew I could always mez a blaster, defender or controller with one shot, and could at least try to detoggle a scrapper/tanker with a melee shot and follow that up with a mez. That was my defense. I wasn't planning on killing anyone... just holding/detoggling them long enough for my teammates to do it for me. And if the team was large enough I could stay in the shadows, building dom on some poor tanker.

But now, forget about it. While I still don't fear enemy squishies because I can usually one shot mez them, I have only one defense against melees... my lvl 38 melee detoggling AoE. Other than that, what can I do? Try and stack 3-4 holds? Hope my regular melee attack 5% detoggle chance hits? Try and build dom from range while dodging enemy fliers like high damage blasters, long mezzing controllers, and self-healing defenders?

Forget it. A dom's primary function on the PvP battlefield is hit and run mezzes on squishies. And like you alluded to, one CM, clarify, ID or BF and they're right back at you.

The change to domination recharge and build up are great, don't get me wrong... but they don't go to the core of what makes PvPing with doms a pain in the [censored].... the total lack of viable self-defense.

We need something. I'd like to see more hp and more damage, as well as having our PB AoE buffs (like drain psyche) provide more defense. However, the devs seem to think domination is the answer. I disagree, but ok, fine. If we're to live and die by dom, then buff it some more. Make it provide mag 3 mez resistance and provide a heal on top of its other boosts. And while they're at it, give us some PPPs that will actually keep us alive. The only one that's worth a damn is the shield and that'll be knocked up with the first blow by whoever hits us. How about a targeted heal like twilight grasp or life drain? Or how about a targeted debuff like lingering radiation or radiation infection? Or a mezzing PB AoE shield like oppressive gloom or cloak of fear? I don't mind the targeted aspect as I see doms as sadists who get stronger by tormenting their victims.

Anyway, I like doms and will play them in PvE, but if the devs want to make them viable for PvP, something needs to be done and soon.

I thought about this more and did the following analysis: Of all ATs both hero and villain, dominators have by far the weakest self-defense in PvP considering all factors.

For Villains:
Brute - more hp, defense, mez protection and more damage
Stalker - about the same hp, but they have defense, mez protection, more damage and stealth/placate
Cors - more hp, mez powers, more damage, self buffs, enemy debuffs, shields, and heals
MMs - about the same hp, but they have 6 "friends", mez powers, more damage, enemy debuffs, shields and heals

Heroes:
Tanker - more hp, defense and mez protection
Scrapper - more hp, defense, mez protection and way more damage
Controller - longer mez, self buffs, enemy debuffs, heals, shields
Defender - about the same damage-wise, but self buffs, enemy debuffs, heals, shields
Blaster - about the same low defense as doms, but they do 3x the damage, have some mez, have defiance to land a deathblow when they're almost dead, and have more hp

What defense does a dom have?
Low hp
Low damage
No defenses/resists
No heals
No shields
No mezz protection
Mezzes resisted by half the heroes
A "god mode" power that's active about once every 5 minutes... if you are in heavy fighting and IF you don't get killed while building it.

And all that coupled with an assault powerset that includes about 1/3 melee attacks and late blooming ranged attacks (no snipe til 35 and no major detoggler til 38 in most instances).

The closest AT you can compare the lack of defense to is the blaster and they were given a revenge inherent that does benefit PvP (I know, I've used it plenty of times with my lvl 34 elec blaster) and a hp boost not too long ago. Not to mention that if you don't kill a blaster in 3-4 shots, odds are he'll kill you.

The closest AT you can compare the low offense to is the defender, but let me attest here that my defenders last 10x longer than my doms do in PvP because of their primary powersets.

So devs, when is our real boost coming?

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Absolutely, the challenge is to make Doms better in non-optimal teams without making them unstoppable on good teams.

Perhaps mild mez resistance wouldn't be too outrageous, since in the greater scheme of things most resistance will still come from buffs. The problem is if you give Doms 2-3 mags of mez protection your average min-maxer is gonna combine that with Acrobatics and I don't know if its a good idea for Doms to have that much protection solo. A mild HP boost, say to Blaster level, would probably be ok. Increasing the ranged attacks to .7 would also be fine IMO. I probably wouldn't do more than 1 or at most 2 of these.

Any other ideas?

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I rolled a fire/fire dominator in RV and got owned. Many times over. Fire is pretty melee oriented, so that was part of the problem. But even when I tried hovering over the fight while my imps went to work some spiner would impale me, or some SJing tanker would smash me, or some invis controller would mez me, or some blaster would snipe me. It never took more than 4 hits from any AT except defenders to kill me.

What needs to be done you ask? Well I'll take your ideas and add two more:

1) increase hp
2) increase range damage
3) restore toggle dropping effectiveness to melee attacks
4) add mez protection to domination

Dominators are melee ranged attackers as much as they are ranged (about 1/3 of our assault powers are close range). They need more hp to last longer than 3 hits. They need more damage as a deterrent. They need toggle dropping to have a chance vs melees. And they need mez protection to survive duking it out at close range.

The combination of these changes will NOT make dominators overpowered. They will simply make dominators a FACTOR. You'll be able to take a couple more hits. You'll be able to kill someone in under 10 hits. You'll be able to protect yourself at melee range in the absence of self-buffs and enemy debuffs.

Seriously, the only time we're a PvP threat now is with domination up. Outside of that time, everyone has the same mezzing ability, does more damage, and has way more self-protection.

Did some PvPing in RV with my lvl 40 mind/psi on Test. Gotta say the build rate on domination is phenomenal. It was up and ready probably a good minute or two before I even noticed. That'll take some time getting used to actually having my inherent available in PvP.

However, I still had minimal survivability even with the improved domination. Sure I could 1-2 shot hold scrappers and tanks, but could not kill them before they popped a BF and caved my head in. A good example is I had a scrapper TKd with dom, which kept him pinned to a wall, but after about 30s of fruitless attacks on him he politely asked me "Now what?" At which point I shut off TK as my end was almost out and he promptly nailed me with a Head Splitter.

Patron shields should help, but probaly only long enough to let me survive one extra hit. Of course the first hit I receive will be a detoggling stun or ranged mez that will drop my shield, so I'm not even sure that'll be true.

Can we have a hp increase? Pretty please?

The thing that sets doms apart from other villain sets is AoE controls. As has been pointed out, other ATs have access to single target holds either in the primaries, seondaries or the new patrol pools. But few have access to group mezzes. So with that in mind, doms should be uber mass controllers. Our hold times should be increased and the accuracy penalties decreased.

Regarding PvP, our holds should also be increased to be on par with controllers. Why are they 'superior' to us? What makes a controller special? They get containment to boost their damage, which ends up equalling or exceeding ours. So we should get holds that at least equal theirs. Yes, yes, I know that domination does this for us. But in a REALISTIC pvp match, how often does a dominator get to sit there and unload 10-20 attacks IN A ROW and UNMOLESTED?

Which brings me to my last suggestion. Dominator HP needs to be increased. We have no buffs. We have no debuffs. The patron pools fail to adequately fill this gaping hole in our AT. Low HP is a real problem in both PvE and PvP, especially PvP. You can't build domination even with the decrease recharge and increased build rate if you're dead in 2-3 hits.

If a straight up HP increase isn't in the cards, how about a temporary damage resistance while domination is active??? Or a temporary HP boost?

In conclusion, make our AoE holds stronger and more accurate and give us a way to survive more damage. Then we'll be better able to dominate through control, be able to dish out damage longer, be able to build domination more reliably, and survive longer to enjoy the fruits of our labors.

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I tested this as much as I could in PVP with my tanker (Ice/Stone), and in my experience, if you do not have decent range, this stuff just doesn't work as well as you say.

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That's because hurricane was MEANT to counter you, meleer. Try using hurricane against a ranged opponent and see how you fair. I have a lvl 30 stormy that I've PvPd with. She could hold off brutes and stalkers no problem. But dominators and corruptors OWNED her. Ranged mezzes were especially her weakness.

I'm absolutely SICK of meleers getting their way in PvP time and time again. They are so arrogant that they think it's their right to walk right up to any squishie and destroy them without effort.

Hurricane was one of the only powers that a squishie could rely on for protection in PvP, and a major defense for storm defenders/controllers in PvE, and now this double nerf has gutted it. Thank you melee crybabies!!! You got what you wanted. Have fun in the PvP zones by yourselves.

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Anyhow, have fun doing that, but realize that if you're ever on a team with a Blaster, by buffing him with stuff like Speed Boost, siphon power, and debuffing the resistance of the enemies, you're transferring all those buffs you're enjoying solo to him, and that Blaster has a 500% cap.

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Is that before or after he screams "heal me" as he's running for the nearest elevator with 6 +3 mobs in hot pursuit?

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[ QUOTE ][*] PVP: Darkest Night debuffs base damage rather than enhanced damage, crippling it in PvP. A power with a base damage of 100 would do 265 damage with 5 SO damage enhancements. Using Darkest Night would only reduce this damage to 235, a decrease of 11% rather than 25%. (LastHumanSoldier, wording by Quason)

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I wonder if all debuffs are calculated this way? -ACC debuffs would basically be useless if that is the case.

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-acc debuffs basiclly are useless in PVP.

Cheers!

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Which is why defenders are basically useless in PVP. One total focus from an energy tank smashes through every defensive power a dark defender has, leaving them 3/4 dead and stunned with all powers detoggled.

Oh, and should we mention the 300' or invis toggle range/drop issue? Not only does your debuff only affect base, but it drops the moment the target superspeeds out of range or becomes invisible. Love that. Thanks Hamidon!

Why does ice arrow's hold stack (faster recharge) whereas petrifying gaze cannot? Why does a 2nd tier power have better hold capability for bosses than dark's 5th power (or is it 6th)?

Will this power be nerfed like all other holds? Please tell me now before my puppy love of this powerset grows into something with committment.

Dark Current
lvl 50 DDDD