Circeus_NA

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I didn't think of AV fights because, personally, I don't know if I would want to rely on an ice tanker, even with maxed out defenses, to go against one, especially since I usually end up in teams fighting 2-3+ AVs .

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that. It puts the whole thing into perspective really.

I know Statesman has read my PMs to him about this (thank you Read Receipts!!!), and Ice Armor in general over the last month -- he probably just thinks I'm chicken little at this point.

I want to be clear here too. I'm not at this point complaining about PvP, how the heck could I be? I haven't logged a character into test in the past few days (though I have logged in to clear some slots for copying).

This issue is clearly a PvM performance issue with how Ice Tankers stack up versus the supposed baseline of Tanking (Statesman said it was the baseline) -- the Invuln Tanker.

The simple fact is that it doesn't. And that issue needs resolution. And it should get it going into I4 because you can't have PvP balance without PvM balance no matter how much different powers can/will work in PvP -- you have to walk before you can kite (sorry PvP joke).

[ QUOTE ]
It's not been checked heavily against the I4 listing, but here are some outstanding Ice armor bugs. I think there was a more complete listing somewhere, but I'm too tired to find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having been the keeper of the original list and that updated one I will tell you that that is the most up to date list of bugs. But no, it has not been tested against I4 yet, and I probably won't get to that until next week.

Knee jerk how? The calculations I made hold now on live the same as they do on test. So Ice is that much worse off then Invuln is in any case, whether this change goes in or not.

Heh for a second there I thought I was going to get bashed on there Wraithlord. But thanks, I think your post really is a strong view of how many Ice Tankers feel. The line that really hits home is:

[ QUOTE ]
In general my Ice tank is about equal to an Ivn tanker who's about 4 or 5 levels lower than I am.

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To be honest, I'm speaking in numbers because geko speaks in numbers, and I thought numbers would be the easiest way to appeal to him. Invuln taking 44% less damage speaks volumes (note that another poster pointed out to me that in gekos post on this thread he lists Bosses as having 75% ACC, so this means the 44% is the proper number to be using here).

Thanks for that post though, because while I posted in numbers your post conveys what I feel.

No problem... I posted the same response on the Avatars forums... wasn't sure which you'd see first

Sorry if you missed it, but its in there:

[ QUOTE ]

The Ice Tanker doesn't change from above's floor accuracy example:

100 * 0.75 = 75 hits after CE
75 * 0.05 = 3.75 hits
3.75 * 250 = 937.5 gross/net damage


[/ QUOTE ]

CE being Chilling Embrace. 25% less hits is 75% hits.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you consider the extra aggro and of CE and the damage of Icicles to balance out that extra 17%? It seems like it should at least be good for something. Not sure if its the whole 17%. Also, doesn't some testing show that Tough hide doesn't stack with Invince. You can check Dark Golem's post in the Tanker forumn if it isn't buried by PvP stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought a dev had chimed in and said they were wrong and that they do stack, and that's why the post is now so buried. I did read through it, and it was all a lot of speculation, but numbers showed it could be going either way. And every Invuln I've ever spoken with says Tough makes them better off, so it should be stacking just fine.

And if Icicles did damage on the order of Burn, sure it would balance out, but since its damage output is worse than Blazing Aura's and that BA is worse than Burn... well no... it ain't there.

[ QUOTE ]
Incorrect. An Even Con Boss has a base To-Hit of 75%. A +1 Boss has a To-Hit around 81-82% and a +2 Boss has a To-Hit closer to 88-90%

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you're talking even con and I'm calculating for the more common even level situation. An even level boss has about an 85% chance to hit. An even con boss would have less of a chance to hit.

And if an even level boss did hit at 75% that means that the discrepency between Invuln and Ice is much higher...

Invul with boss calc at 75%:

100 * (0.75 - 0.54) = 21 hits
21 * 250 = 5250 gross damage
5250 * (1 - 0.90) = 525 net damage

Ice was at 937.5 net damage (its calc doesn't change, floored ACC is floored ACC). That makes the discepency 44%

This would mean that Permafrost's bases would have to be:

Lethal 20%
Smashing 20%
Cold 20% (not changed from current)
Fire 10% (not changed from current)
Energy 20%
Negative 20%
Toxic 11%

Which makes Max Slotted modified Permafrost:

Lethal 44%
Smashing 44%
Cold 44% (not changed from current)
Fire 22% (not changed from current)
Energy 44%
Negative 44%
Toxic 24.2%

So sure I'll take that over the other of that's really the case. But clearly the problem is huge whether its a 17% difference or a 44% one.

Edit: Also that would explain why Ice Tankers who take Tough are so much better off then Ice Tankers who don't in overall performance. At 75% they would be exactly covering the smash/lethal gap. Of course, they're likely getting Tough at the cost of permafrost which means they loose the extra Cold/Fire Resistance and unlike my example do not have the Energy/Negative Resistance or the additional Toxic Resistance.

No feedback?

Okay looking at the calculations for Invuln max resists are as follows:

Lethal 90% (above cap)
Smashing 90% (above cap)
Cold 88%
Fire 88%
Energy 88%
Negative 88%
Toxic 44%

Ice Armor already has the following resists (assuming standard slotting, and assuming no one takes Permafrost):

Cold 90% (exactly capped)
Fire 9% (no one slots Frozen Armor for Resistance)
Toxic 20% (no one slots Hoarfrost for Resistance)

Using the 7.5% base number in an auto-power to compensate (accepting Permafrost as the logical choice here), and knowing that max slotted for Resistance this would put the 7.5% to 16.5%.

Adjusting Permafrost as follows would bring Ice into alignment with Invuln (these are base Resist numbers btw):

Lethal 7.5%
Smashing 7.5%
Cold 20% (not changed from current)
Fire 10% (not changed from current)
Energy 7.5%
Negative 7.5%
Toxic 11%

This would bring a Max Slotted modified Permafrost to:

Lethal 16.5%
Smashing 16.5%
Cold 44% (not changed from current)
Fire 22% (not changed from current)
Energy 16.5%
Negative 16.5%
Toxic 24.2%

And this would plug the 17% that Invuln has over Ice.

*****

Edit: I just wanted add that adding Resistances somewhere is not the only way to solve this issue, just the most inherently easy way to solve it.

For example, a modification to Hoarfrost that makes it less like Dull Pain and more like Healing Flames would compensate greatly. If the 100 hits example happend over the course of 2 minutes and we could be guaranteed to heal the difference of 17% damage in those two minutes, boom you're done. Consider it a re-icing if you will.

I honestly think the intention with Hibernate is to work this way, considering it comes up every 60 seconds by default. But realsitically because Hibernate stops a tanker from doing his job, it falls short. Healing Flames and Rooted for example do not stop a Tanker from working. Hibernate takes the Tanker off the chessboard.

And don't get me wrong I don't think Hibernate is a bad power. I know Blasters and Controllers who love it in their Ancillary Pools. And for them it works well... when they're hurting they want to be taken off the chessboard. When a Tanker is hurting he wants to keep going. This makes Hibernate a poor Tanker power.

Hey just wanted to clarify that I messed up a bit in the calcs and wanted to correct them. Capped Resistance for a Tanker is 90% now, not 95%, my mistake. And again remember that even con bosses have an 85% chance to hit.

For the capped Resistance:

20 * 0.85 = 17 hits
17 * 250 = 4250 gross damage
4250 * (1 - 0.90) = 425 net damage

That actually puts pure defense above pure offense when fighting even level mobs by 41%.

That said, I'm also finding some things out about Invuln (been a while since I played one, so was not so familiar with the new numbers), that Invince is most likely in the ball park of 5% base and 7.5% per mob. So:

5 + (7.5 * 5) = 42.5%
w/6 slotted Tough Hide for another 16.5%
42.5 + 16.5 = 59%
However, Unyielding has a 5% debuff
59% - 5 = 54%

For the capped Invuln tanker the following happens:

100 * (0.85 - 0.54) = 31 hits
31 * 250 = 7750 gross damage
7750 * (1 - 0.90) = 775 net damage

Which is actually slightly more than the Ice Tanker was:

100 * 0.75 = 75 hits after CE
75 * 0.05 = 3.75 hits
3.75 * 250 = 937.5 gross/net damage

This puts Invuln 17% ahead of Ice Tankers, not 40%. Overall that would mean that to properly compete with a Invuln Tanker as they stand today, an Ice Tanker would need 17% Resistance -- which would imply sticking a 7.5% base resist somewhere int the Ice Armor mix (preferably Permafrost).

Now that 17% is a very interesting number, because that 17% is almost exactly the addtional defense that Tough Hide provides. In fact if you take Tough Hide dropping the Invuln Tankers DEF to 37.5% out of the picture you get the following:

100 * (0.85 - 0.375) = 47.5 hits
47.5 * 250 = 11875 gross damage
11875 * (1 - 0.90) = 1187.5 net damage

Which would actually be more in line with an Ice Tanker, and would put an Ice Tanker ahead by 21% exactly one less hit from the attackers (250 damage) in this case (others may vary).

Yeah... good luck Tanking without Wet Ice.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll state it again, for reference:

Resistance >> Defense.


[/ QUOTE ]

And a combination of the two beats out all (*cough* Invunl *cough*)

Lets take a closer look. For this we'll assume even level bosses which we all know have an 85% chance to hit. We'll also assume capped Resistance, 95%, and enough Defense to floor accuracy.

Take 20 attacks (X) from the same boss. Each is doing 250 points of damage each (Y).

For the capped Resistance:

20 * 0.85 = 17 hits
17 * 250 = 4250 gross damage
4250 * (1 - 0.95) = 212.5 net damage

For enough Defense to floor accuracy:

20 * 0.05 = 1 hit
1 * 250 = 250 gross/net damage

It doesn't matter how many hits (X) or how much damage per hit (Y) you plug into the equation. A capped Resistance will always be taking less damage then enough Defense to floor Accuracy. In fact, it will always be taking exactly 15% less damage over time.

So already Defense starts 15% behind Resistance due purely to the way game works.

Now lets say we have two Tankers one is Ice, the other is Invuln. Both are designed in a fairly standard manner. Lets assume that the Ice Tanker can for purposes of this discussion floor accuracy toward whatever the damage type is above. The Ice Tanker will also have 25% less hits coming in due to Chilling Embrace.

Lets assume the Invuln Tanker has his Resistance maxed. And lets also rememebr that Invuln Tankers also get Tough Hideand Invicibility. Lets say the total DEF the Invuln Tanker has picked up is 40% (about 15% from Tough Hide, and 25% from Invincibility -- derived figuring the 5% for each of the same 5 mobs the Ice Tanker got his defense from).

To allow for Chilling Embrace to enter the calculation better we'll up the attack count to 100.

For the capped Invuln tanker the following happens:

100 * (0.85 - 0.40) = 45 hits
45 * 250 = 11250 gross damage
11250 * (1 - 0.95) = 562.5 net damage


The Ice Tanker doesn't change from above's floor accuracy example:

100 * 0.75 = 75 hits after CE
75 * 0.05 = 3.75 hits
3.75 * 250 = 937.5 gross/net damage

This means the Invuln Tanker is taking 40% less damage than the Ice Tanker.

Really, I think the numbers speak for themselves at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
If all your other powers only give +def also, why couldn't you just use EA for defense? That is just one power 6 slotted? Then you could have stealth and SS to get up close, useing 2 pool, but you still are using WAY less slots for a mighty defense. I guess you might want to 6 slot Tough and Health, and then 4 in Hoarfrost, but that isn't that many slots, considering. Is there something I'm missing? I'm guessing most of you Icers aren't slotted like that, but with that and Chilling Embrace(which is the same as +25% resists to all enemies in range which applies to your team as well) I see that as being a very powerful defense, for relatively few slots, leaving a lot to focus on attacks (that damage one of you asked for).

[/ QUOTE ]

And we can all see you've never played an Ice Tanker

Much luck dying many times over with that tactic. And don't for a minute think people haven't tried it. Someone here will invitably say they hit 50 with only EA and WI while walking up hills both ways in the snow. And they probably did, but they ignored certain mobs, fought only certain other things, farmed, or didn't do all their story arcs or TFs or trials, or some combination of any of those.

Bottom line is that pools are supposed to be optional. In fact, many a time Statesman has said on these very forums this very thing. That means that a powerset should stand on its own without power pools. That means Stealth... Superspeed... Tough... Health... all don't enter into the picture.

The set as it stands was broken even before this change. And this change doesn't really help it much.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, assuming you slotted for 6 defs buffs, the cap would be 188%. The hell do you need with 500% defense? As has been said the excess is wasted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reminds me... most optimal Invuln builds don't even have to 6 slot their powers to be at peak efficiency. They don't have to worry if their Resists are going to be maxed out, because once they are... they are. And on top of that they get DEF to boot.

Ice Tankers need to spend a lot more slots and run more toggles to achieve a much less effective state than an Invuln Tanker. Yes, Ice Tankers can tank. They just can't tank to nearly the same effectiveness.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, EA steals end; but that too scales with level, and it has no effect on monsters or AVs, even with an end drain slot. I would hazard it would take 3-4 end drains to have any effect on either of these class of villians.

[/ QUOTE ]

And just to add... its End Drain is completely neutered in PvP. Unlike the ACC buff on Invincibility.

You're forgetting that Invlun Tanks have resistance to fall back on when their defense fails. When an Ice Tanker gets hit he has nothing to fall back on. No Resistance like an Invuln or Stone Tanker. No active heal boost like a Stone Tanker.

Sure there's Hibernate... which comes into play at... level 32 and its a good power in general, but its not as effective overall as Unstoppable or Granite Armor.

And Energy Absorbtion itself doesn't even come into play until level 26... unlike say Invuln who gets Invincibility at 18, and then still more defense at level 26 -- on top of all their Resistances.

Stone oddly also has DEF towards PSI, which in strong counterpoint to every time Statesman says that PSI is supposed to be the Tanker hole. So what is the hole in Stone Armor?

Because Ice can not Resist damage (Invlun, Stone, Fire) OR heal itself on the fly (Stone and Fire) it will never be able to Tank quite like the others. It can take on large groups of mobs close to its level, but not an AV.

I've been through a number of AV battles that are just my Blaster and my friend who's an Invuln Tanker. Try that with an Ice Tanker and no dice.

Sure maybe this change makes sense numerically, not taking into account things like... oh... the normal mob grouping when solo is 3. Or the fact that most things you fight are not your level -- especially when teamed. The fact that its far too easy for mobs (PvM) and players (PvP) to get superior accuracy bufs and or defense debuffs that completely negate the character. etc.

So when is Ice going to come up to par?

*****

If the number is truly 18.75. Then its fairly optimal that provided no accuracy buffs for enemies or def debuffs on you, 2 DEF enhancers (putting you at 26.25% per target) and 2 targets that assuming the following defenses:

68% Smash/Lethal
18% Cold/Fire
60% Energy/Neg

(achieved via 5 DEF slots in Frozen Armor, 5 in Wet Ice, and 2 in Glacial Armor)

Bringing those to (for only a single application):

120.5% Smash/Lethal
70.5% Cold/Fire
112.50% Energy/Neg

That your flooring for mobs vs you you get (assuming I figured this all out right, which I probably didn't since I feel like I flubbes something here -- please someone else calc all this):

For minions:
Smash/Lethal floored at +10 levels
Cold/Fire floored at +5 levels
Energy/Neg floored at +10 levels

For lts:
Smash/Lethal floored at +9 levels
Cold/Fire floored at +1 level
Energy/Neg floored at +7 levels

For bosses:
Smash/Lethal floored at +5 levels
Cold/Fire floored at -2 levels
Energy/Neg floored at +4 levels

Now... with those numbers posted... I'm skeptical. I fighting stuff at +1/+2 is fairly typical... and except for cold/fire bosses I should be fairly well off in not getting hit, but it doesn't play out that way in observation. Which means to me that mobs are getting an awful lot of accuracy buffs across the board OR my calcs are way off (which I suspect they are like I said above).

[ QUOTE ]
Ice has control, aoe knock up, single target hold, slow effects, end removal. And an PBAoE damage toggle.

[/ QUOTE ]

End removal is okay for PvM, but its not there for PvP. There is no AoE knockup or Hold in Ice Armor -- don't confuse primaries with secondaries. And while Icicles does do damage, its not nearly as much as Blazing Aura it also costs more End then BA.

[ QUOTE ]
Just as fire is more damage, less defense, ice is more controll less defense. As Invul has no secondary effects, best defense. The variety is there for a reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

But in practice... despite what geko says above... it doesn't work out as well as you think.

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Wet ice resists all status effects except knock down/back, but I think no defense set gets that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it does get knockdown/back RES. And I'm sorry but what other purely Defensive Tanker set is there? Also for the record, Rooted and Uyielding both resist knockback/down.

No offense, but you need better information because at least half of what you posted is wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play an Ice nor SR scrapper, but doesn the fact that you have multiple slows make you much more survivable than an SR scrapper?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're Ice/Ice. Not everone is though. And no it doesn't. Both can floor accuracy, so there's virtually no difference defensewise.

I think its actually a lack of understanding that most of the time in game you are in fact not fighting whites.

Did you also notice that we're left out in the cold on Confuse, Fear, and End Drain Resistance? The set thats supposed to be the king of defense and status protection, and not a one of those is given.

I really want to understand why if they're so worried they don't cap DEF across the board for everyone instead of just mucking with the effectiveness of a specifc powerset, that already underperforms to its counterparts.

[ QUOTE ]
o Put a cap on the max defense you can gain from Energy Absorption.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean c'mon... doesn't Ice Armor have enough issues as it is?

Was this change really necessary for a powerset that needs some kind of change to bring it up to par with Invuln and Stone in effectiveness?

There really is some 'splainin' to do here.

If you keep chipping away at the edges Ice Armor has (pun intended) what is going to be left?

To compensate for this, make Ice Armor able to drop ACC below the 5% floor OR allow for the DEF of Ice Armor to always work as if what is being fought is the same level as the Tanker. Give it an edge.

Name: The Mighty Quinn

Powers: Ice Armor/Stone Melee (Magic)

Origin:

There are things in this universe which one looks at and can only bring themselves to say “ewww!” – for example, insects. And then there are things whose majesty and splendor has been speculated about for eons.

Take the comet. Even with modern science one can not possibly be certain of the contents that comprise the comet. We are certain there is ice. We are certain there are various ores. But we are not sure what mysteries lay inside a comet. There is only so much a spectrographic analysis from hundreds of thousands if not millions of miles away can provide. And so we can only sit back and speculate endlessly for surely no one has ever seen a comet up close.

Roughly 9,000 years ago...

Wrapped in his furs, spear in hand; Mahate Quintok followed the great tusked beast through the icy wastes. He had been lucky to spot this one several days ago, and even luckier to mortally wound it. But that was several days ago, and it had been moving steadily slower the more it bled – its time to die had finally come and his people would dine well on its meat. Then he would at last earn leadership among his tribe’s warriors.

Drawing on that thought, he edged closer to the beast until he had maneuvered onto a ledge above it, unseen. Raising his Spear high above his head with two hands he prepared to leap down onto the beast and drive his spear home for the final blow.

Suddenly he heard a noise not unlike that of his own spear flying through the air, only much, much louder. He looked up in time to see a large bright object streaking down through the sky toward him. For a several moments he wondered what the object was, then he though of how beautiful it looked all ablaze and with various colors washing off of it.

Whether it was for protection or to possibly get a chance to touch its splendor he could not tell you, but, dropping his spear, he reached out his hands towards it. Never even having a chance to consider what was happening, as the cold washed over and enveloped him. And there he stood frozen in time for several millennia – no longer quite human.

1000 years ago...

During his time in hibernation, the guiding hand of Mother Nature had assured him safe passage to the farthest reaches of the southern hemisphere. And using the warmth of the sun she thawed him from his icy cocoon. He fell to the ground, unaffected by its bitter cold, drew in a breath, and exhaled an icy chill.

As he stood, the ground seemed to stand with him, frozen chunks of tundra rolling off his body. Concentrating for a moment the pieces rose from the ground and surrounded his form with an icy mass. He looked around and the glare did not bother him for it was far less than the brightness of the last thing he had seen.

Within himself he sensed a desire to protect this land and its creatures, specifically the ones known as penguins. And with a great leap he propelled himself forward.

Mother Nature smiled down on the wasteland as she watched its new protector, the Mighty Quinn, leap away. She had chosen well.

Several months ago...

The foul creatures known as Rikti had caused far reaching disruptions in the Earth’s ecosystem, and as a result Mother Nature was injured. It would take some time for her wounds to heal, but, through her pain, she saw that her planet was in great need.

For a thousand years she had watched Mighty Quinn in his tireless efforts to protect the lands of the southern continent. And he had done well. But now it was time to have him serve an even greater purpose.

She would send him to the shores of northern continent of Laurentia. To a gathering place for a multitude of men, women, and other creatures that are akin to gods and goddesses. She would have him go to Paragon City where he could mete out justice in his own special way.

Since arriving in Paragon City, Quinn has become quite fond of pigeons.

[ QUOTE ]
I thought of this this morning on the way in to work... these channels sure look like IRC. You have a handle. You join channels. You send private messages.

Wouldn't it be swell if I could point my regular IRC client at them, and be able to keep an eye on them from outside the game? I can tell you I'd have Trillian open on the supergroup all afternoon at the office.

It would be wonderful, and I'd like to see it.

Am I the only one?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not the only one. An external client would rock!