Chad Gulzow-Man

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And, yes, there are people that "can't wait for the badges", and ones that have to have them "now".


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Please point out where I said I wanted these badges "now". I will be waiting.

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You said -

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. I personally think 14 or 15 days would be fine.

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I said...

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....there are people that "can't wait for the badges", ....


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The DEVs have set the time as 30 days. You are saying that you can't wait 30 days and that it should be shorter period of time because it is, apparently, too long.

I've clarified my "now" previous as well. As far as I'm concerned, wanting it before the time that the DEVs have it set for is wanting it "now".

A little child can want a cookie "now", but the child's mom still will have to go to the cookie jar to get it. If she goes to get it when the child says "now", she's getting it for the child before she intended to give it to the child. To the child, it is "now".

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14-15 days is still quite a bit of time to invest, and is hardly "now."

CaptA, myself, and most of the other badgers out there are simply saying that 30 days is just too long. If you don't agree, then fine, you don't agree.

But really, are you arguing because you LIKE the idea of 30 days, or simply because you DON'T like the attitude of the other badge collectors? If it's the former, then that's fine; but if it's the latter, then you really need to stop posting here because it's just causing drama, and if you're not being constructive then you're wasting everyone's time (including yours).

Regardless, nobody is saying "Noooooow!" so stop phrasing it as such. "Now" and "half the time" are not the same thing, no matter how you qualify them in your own head. (It's not wrong to have different definitions, but it makes arguments like the one in this thread very messy.)

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Maybe the best thing to do with the day jobs, veteran rewards, anniversary badges, and other account badges (VIP/Destined One, Pocket D VIP) is to:
* Make a new "Special awards" window.
* Move all these badges OUT of the badge system / database and into the new window/system.
* Remove them from the badge count.

At that point they are no longer a part of the badge system.

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The thing is, most of us badgers are okay with the idea of removing things that not everyone can obtain from the official badge total. These include such badges as the Anniversary badges, and the Veteran Rewards due to the way they're implemented (they keep new players from becoming badgers, because they look at them and say, "Aw man, I'll never get those, so why bother even starting?"). We don't want to lose them, but we're okay with them not counting towards the total (the way SG badges don't count, but still show up on your badge window).

As long as the badgers can stand to do it, they'll keep going after anything that's called a "badge" in the game. And when they can't stand it anymore, they'll probably quit.

The new Day Jobs badges are making dedicated badgers groan and say, "Aw man, I'll never get all of those AND the other new badges they offer in the game (not to mention whatever other badges I'm currently missing). I don't even want to try." The thing is, for those with a collector mindset, badges are a huge draw for the game. If you're not collecting, then you're not feeding that need. And if you're not feeding that need for a long enough period of time, you start to question why you're still subscribing.

Issue 13 seems to be really bothering a lot of hardcore players for different reasons:
*The badgers are bothered by Day Jobs
*The PVPers are bothered by the PVP changes
*Inf and Market Farmers are going to be bothered by Merits
*Levelling Pacts give another tool to use for power levellers, which creates more "n00bs" who have no idea how to use their characters--which affects the PVE players (regardless of how they feel about badges, PVP, farming, or PLing).
*Base Builders are losing their Base Salvage, and are being left in the dark as to whether or not they will be compensated for the upcoming price decrease on all base items. This will also raise the price of Invention Salvage, since all base items will now use it for construction. (Thanks to Snow Globe for reminding me about this one.)

The only things I haven't heard any legitimate complaints about were the new powersets (plenty of "why didn't you make X powerset instead?" but nothing substantial) and the Dual-Builds, which people run from "Meh" to mildly excited over (haven't heard a single person say, "You're ruining my character by giving the option for dual builds!" other than people complaining about the cost of min/maxing another build).

Issue 13 may be making things easier for the casual player, but for those of us who have been around for years (many since the launch and even the beta before it), it's just straining tensions. While it's not all bad, everyone who spends a significant amount of time focusing on a single aspect of the game is suffering in one way or another.

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And, yes, there are people that "can't wait for the badges", and ones that have to have them "now".


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Name them.



Oh, BTW, the Wizard of Oz called. They need their Straw Man back.

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CaptA for one apparently.
I'm sure if you dig through these forums you will see many more based on what I can guess from the implications in his message.

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Please point out where I said I wanted these badges "now". I will be waiting.

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Hmmm...
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I said I wanted these badges "now".

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I win!

(I kid, I kid. I'm with you on this one, CaptA. Not "now," just... in a much more realistic time frame.)

"Yahtzee" at Zero Punctuation did a review of EVE Online last month that sums up my feelings for any offline reward system pretty well.

The site is hilarious, but this link is absolutely NOT safe for work due to language.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...208-Eve-Online

I'll answer your questions from my point of view, even though I'm pretty sure you were addressing Snow Globe. These are my answers, and I'm not trying to speak for anyone else by giving them.

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What is it that makes a badge a badge to you?

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If it shows up on the window when you click "Badge" under the nav bar, then it's a badge.

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You seem to be okay with the fact that you can't do every mission, get every IO, get every combination of powers, or complete every other aspect of other things in the game. But once something becomes a badge, then it is now part of a single collection that you must complete.

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I also want to do all the story arcs, even though people can't see my souveniers. But that's more because I want to experience the content than as a collection.

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How is it you are able to separate collecting badges from other items in the game, but not different types of badges from each other? What is it that makes badges part of a single collection to you? Is it the fact that they are all called "badges"? Is it the fact that they are counted together?

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That's pretty much it, for me. If it's called a badge, and it shows up in the badge window, then it's a badge and therefore should be collected.

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Keep in mind that some people might want to collect Day Jobs too, so while making Day Job badges invisible might satisfy your style of collecting, other collectors could be hurt by that change. What could the devs do that would allow those collectors to collect Day Jobs, but still make you not feel you needed them all to complete your badge collection?

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Make them something other than badges? Perhaps the game tracks them as badges, the same way it stores the choosable Veteran Rewards in the badge menu, but they show up in a different menu from the badges? If they're not under the badge window and they don't count towards your character's personal badge total under their info window, then I honestly don't care what they do with them--I'm simply not interested in the Day Jobs system anyway.

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Would any of these possibilities be satisfactory to you?

* Count each type of badge separately in the game. In other words, Achievement badges go to one count, Exploration to another, Day Jobs to another, etc. If separating the existing counts wouldn't be feasible, then separate just Day Jobs from the rest of the badge count.

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No.
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* Call Day Job badges "certificates" instead.

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Yes, if they don't show up in the badge window and aren't counted towards the badge total.
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* Show Day Jobs in a separate "skills" window that shows a tree of all the offline skills you have acquired. You could set your title by clicking on a skill.

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Again, yes, as long as they're not in the badge window and don't count towards the badge total.

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Basically, is the 'year' estimate only for THESE jobs, or ALL jobs?

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At this point it is a year estimate for only the announced jobs.

If it is only 1/2 or 1/4 of the actual list and the 30 days stands, I think I might well close my account in protest. I say this is because this would no longer be a game that I would want to support.

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Feeling the need to add my two cents again, but I agree with Snow Globe. I feel strongly enough that this is bad design implementation that if they tried to make me take 4 years to get offline badges, I'd quit outright in protest. I would simply turn my back on my favorite game and never look back.

That said, the posted list said it contained "most, but not all" of the Day Job badges. That means there can be no more than 11 others.

Right, right... crawling back in my box now...

(Oh, and Snow Globe? Venture is the only person in my ignore box. Arguing for the sake of drama is about the most un-cool thing someone can do on an online forum. And his arguments all come down to "you're wrong" or "that's irrelevant" without any giving any reasons to support his side, whatever it may be. )

Alright, I've been thinking about things over the last couple days and was suddenly hit with a realization when somebody was talking about "invisible" badges a few pages back.

There are visible badges that are actually multiple badges as well. For instance, the Respec Trial badges. You get one badge (with associated text) for earning a respec, and then the badge changes after using the respec.

So why not take the same approach to Day Jobs?

At 10 days, you earn a Day Job badge, but it doesn't boost any of the rewards associated with that Day Job (like reducing the time it takes to earn full credit towards those rewards).

At 30 days, the badge gets a star logo, and the description text is changed to say that you are a "Star Employee." This is the point when you start gaining the benefits associated with the badge. The badge's title still says you're a "Professor," it's just the flavor that's changed.

The technology and precedent already exist in the game to support this. Originally, there was a contact red-side that was supposed to be activated for earning the 24-33 and 34-43 respecs. However, it was accidentally made so the contact was only activated after using those respecs.

The Accolades would work the same way. You earn the badge simply having the two job badges, but then you can earn "Star Employee" on the Accolade, and the benefits, by having "Star Employee" on both the jobs required to earn it.

If you have any problems with this proposed implementation other than "I think it's fine already and don't see why anyone would want to change it," please let us hear them. I'm trying to propose a constructive change, and appreciate constructive criticism.

I think I'm gonna have to drop from this argument. This whole thread has spiralled into a "lolbadgers ur lazy" argument with a few good but repeated arguments on either side and more singling-out and baiting than was necessary.

I'll still check the thread from time to time, but unless someone directs a question at me specifically, I've said all I can say without (continuing) going in circles. Direct a post at me, and I'll do my best to reply to it.

Well, all except Venture. If he asks me a question, let him know he's on my ignore list.

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So basically, once the first 60 days have passed, pretty much every characters you own will now have access to a FREE bonus you didnt even had to really work for.

How is that not cool?

People really complain about a gifted horse in this case. Its not even funny. Its sad.

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I abhor the idea of being coddled and given freebies in a game that don't require me playing it, specifically in the sense that time spent playing means time not earning. If not for the badges, I'd just go off in my own "Meh." corner and ignore that Day Jobs were ever even added.

Well, there's also the 2xXP * 1 bar for every 24 hours you spend logged out. I don't like that much either, and you can't avoid it. But it also doesn't matter terribly to me, since I pretty much only play with my 50s at this point.

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technically, they are not doing 'nothing'... even if viewed as an award... take it as an award for having a life (QoL feature?)

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There ya go.

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I play an MMO. I have no life. Duh.

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I'm sorry.

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Smart alec.

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I'm just saying make badges as a result of doing stuff, not as a result of NOT doing stuff. I can't see how anyone, regardless of "hardcore badger" status, could be objecting to that.

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There are badges for getting mezzed and collecting debt, which are pretty much the antithesis of playing the game well. I don't see much difference between 'time spent in a sleep, hold, or stun', 'debt collected', and 'time spent offline'. None of these are ostensibly achievements, but they're tracked anyway.
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Seriously, I want to know: what's in it for you?

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I get a cool badge that lets me display a title.

Seriously. There's one or two of my characters that it would be neat to have 'Security Chief' on. I like getting badges for titles, mainly. I went and grabbed the exploration badge out by the floating truck in the D last Winter's Event just so I could parade around with 'Trucker' under my name.

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Which is fair enough, but the question wasn't directed at players like you (not that I mean that in a bad way).

Your response is, in fact, valued and refreshing, as someone who collects CERTAIN badges, but not ALL badges.

I myself have a SS/Invuln Brute called "B1zZ3rK" who was sent by Dreck to shape up the Freakshow in the Rogue Isles. I purposely hunted down enough Freak bosses so I could use /settitle to have it say "Tank Smasher" under his name.

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technically, they are not doing 'nothing'... even if viewed as an award... take it as an award for having a life (QoL feature?)

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There ya go.

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I play an MMO. I have no life. Duh.

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My definition of fun is, "I'm doing something, and I enjoy working towards completing it."

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You don't find parties fun? Or a concert? Or a date? (though that last one I suppose could fit your definition if it's only a means to an end )

As far as it applies to an in-game reward, perhaps 'fun' isn't the best word to use if the semantics bothers you. In my book, if the game system makes me feel good then it's worth having. Logging into the game and getting a badge and sometimes a temp power every once in a while would make me feel good, so it's well worth having.

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Sorry, that was my definition of "fun playing video games." Different contexts and all that.

I like concerts, though I like very few bands. I don't like parties. And dates (I never think of them as a means to an end, by your implications... I'm a gentleman ) are entirely dependant on who I'm with, where we go, and whether or not I'm so nervous that I'm visibly sweating. I've had dates that were lots of fun, and dates that were, uh, "fun" for everybody else to watch due to schadenfreude.

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As odd as this may sound, I don't see why hard-core badgers should have a monopoly on how new badges are introduced into the game.

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This is true for just about any MMO mechanic. Letting the hardcore players dictate the game design based on their personal desires usually doesn't work out very well.

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I'm just saying make badges as a result of doing stuff, not as a result of NOT doing stuff. I can't see how anyone, regardless of "hardcore badger" status, could be objecting to that.

If you're a hardcore badger, then you can probably see my point, whether you agree with it or not. (I don't recall anyone saying "I have tons of badges and am totally stoked about getting these, too!")

If you're not a badger, then what do you care whether or not you get a badge for your Day Jobs, as long as you get the promised associated reward?

And if you're an anti-badger like CodeJunkie and Venture, then what exactly do you get from dictating that, "yes, we absolutely need to make badges for Day Jobs just so the badgers can't have them." Seriously, I want to know: what's in it for you?

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1.) If you don't want the badges that require you to do nothing, then don't get them. And, the argument is not that you don't want them you just want them quicker.

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I actually don't want them to exist, period. This is like giving a kid an "A" because he had better things to do than his homework.

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2.) Your comparison is wrong. Bowling is a competitive sport, you compete for points against another person. The fact that people created a competition on who as the most badges is a biproduct of the system. It's like 2 people competing to see who can buy the most sports cars.

The system is designed to give your alts perks while they are logged off. Big deal. The logged off time accumulates to get a badge, big deal. Why is it so important to have them all? I just don't get it.

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If I want more badges than Beef Cake, that's still a competition.

If two players want to race to level 50, that's a competition.

If two millionaires each want to try and buy more sports cars than the other? Guess what? STILL A COMPETITION.

You don't like badgers. I don't like football. Know how I handle that? I don't watch football. I don't waste my time by telling the players that they're wasting theirs.

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"Getting a badge for doing nothing isn't fun."

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For *you*. It's great fun for *me.*

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I'm sorry, I find this hard to believe.

It might just be that we have different definitions of the word "fun." Yours sounds like "If something makes me happy, then I'm automatically having fun," though I could be wrong.

My definition of fun is, "I'm doing something, and I enjoy working towards completing it." I'm "working" on getting the Empath badge, but I'm not enjoying it; it is not "fun."

(I also don't find games like Tetris or Bejewelled to be fun, because, as per my definition, there's no end to them--proof right there that different people's definition of fun varies.)

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"Getting a badge for doing nothing isn't fun."


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For you. For a casual player with a lot of alts, having a surprise waiting for them when they log back into a character they haven't used for a while is a nice start to a gaming session.

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A nice surprise != Fun.


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For you.

In all seriousness, not all of us are 100% Achievers. It's nice to have rewards for other styles of play (or, dare I say it, not play )

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A good number of the badgers out there are 100% completionists--or at least we'd like to be. I bet you that Beef Cake has done every story arc with his main badger.

Though I personally am against non-playing rewards, the only reason I'm complaining at all are the badges. If not for those, I would simply not use the system, but tying badges in basically forces me to in order to stay competitive and strive for 100%.

If you guys want non-badge rewards for logging out, help yourselves. I simply don't care.

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Accomplishments aren't always fun and fun doesn't necessarily have to be derived from accomplishments. There is nothing wrong with rewards that cater to different kinds of people.

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True enough, but badges were designed to be an accomplishment for doing something in the game. Now they're saying, "don't play, get free badges!" That leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Again, if you guys want non-badge rewards for logging out, knock yourselves out. Whatever makes you happy. I don't want 'em, I don't care about 'em, and I won't pursue them.

(Logging out for 30 days to get badges ASAP won't make me or any competitive badger happy, though. Sure, you say we don't have to... but that's not what we're telling ourselves.)

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I find it funny that people that log their characters in and do nothing to get certain badges are complaining about badges where they have to do half the work to do nothing to get them. People will truly complain about anything.

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Have you not been paying attention to the fact that we don't like the idea of getting badges for nothing? Most badgers I know want to see the "farm" badges changed or removed completely from the game. Most of us aren't that big on the Veteran badges, either. As has been stated in this thread, though, we're not speaking out as much about those right now because they're already in the game, and there's not much we can do to stop them.

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And what is it with people wanting to be the first to have all the badges or being so glad that they have more than someone else? Who gives a crap? The only one cares is you. I wish people would understand that the only competition between players in MMO games is in PvP.

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That's an incredibly ignorant remark. Badgers compete in their own community, the same way PVPers compete in theirs. Sometimes people are members of both, and sometimes they're not.

You're basically trying to say that bowling isn't a competition just because you prefer basketball.

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"Getting a badge for doing nothing isn't fun."


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For you. For a casual player with a lot of alts, having a surprise waiting for them when they log back into a character they haven't used for a while is a nice start to a gaming session.

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A nice surprise != Fun.

I frequently forget what day it is as I approach the 3 month period of my Veteran Rewards. Inevitably, I'll log in and see "Badge Earned!" My reaction isn't to jump up and down and tell all my friends about how entertaining it was to get the extra badge just for playing for another three months. I go, "Oh, cool," and then (hopefully) go run some missions... which are fun.

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"Getting a badge for doing nothing isn't fun."

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... I love you.

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Rewards for being logged out of a toon isn't "content". But that's what you're supporting, while turning a blind eye to the valid (and, I hope, equally constructive) complaints from the segment of the populace that knows WTH badges take to earn the MOST.

A reward for doing nothing is not a badge. You're right: Neither is Empath. Neither is Immortal. Neither are the vet badges. If I had my way, I'd see THEM removed from the badge system too.

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Agreed. Or /signed. Or whatever the forum monkeys need to see to know that I'm completely on the same page.

Nobody's arguing that there's too much content. The argument has pretty consistently been that this adds zero content; and if you feel the need to attack badges the way some of us do, it ends up being negative content.

I won't consider a Day Job to be content until they add a mini game where I flip burgers at Up-N-Away Burger. I'll take a badge for that over not accessing my character any day.

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If anything, we need more unique badges that require substantial time and skill investments.

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Therein lies the solution.

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That may include badges you aren't skilled enough to earn. Is it still OK?

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::chuckle:: For me, that includes the Skiing badges.

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Including the newer epic ski badges for this year's event. And yes, if I failed at that, I'd cry like a mewling pup. But I'd do it again until I beat it. It's an achievement.

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And even when you fail, at least you're having fun.

And when it stops being fun, you can go run some missions until you're ready to try it again.

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If anything, we need more unique badges that require substantial time and skill investments.

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Therein lies the solution.

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That may include badges you aren't skilled enough to earn. Is it still OK?

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As long as it's possible for any character, even if it's currently outside of my gaming ability, then yes. I'll work and get better at it. If it comes down to it, I'll get someone else to help me. Heck, 4½ years on my Super Reflexes Scrapper, and I'm still learning new tidbits that help me play him a little bit better.

I got the skiing badges last winter for several of my SG mates because they had problems controlling themselves during the effects of a Speed Boost. (Though it's highly possible that their problems were due to lag or underpowered machines--not everyone can build their own gaming rig.)

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these are rewards for doing nothing, after all.

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Therein lies the problem.

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If anything, we need more unique badges that require substantial time and skill investments.

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Therein lies the solution.

Yeah, and also, if you're specifically going for an Accolade or a different badge or whatever, you have to log in after 30 days (when you get the first badge) to move to a new location for the second.

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I'm confused....was that at me? It's my birthday (as you can see from the cake), but I didn't say that....

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Sorry, I was referring to Venture. It's his birthday too. You're cool in my book.