CassandraCorte

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This is _supposed_ to be a factional conflict (in all the zone except WB). I simply can't understand why it seems the same people that claim to enjoy PvE and the story lines don't see this as a complete destruction of immersion. I can't see many comic heroes not helping another hero, though certainly villains don't naturally have the same loyalty they are all part of the same organization.

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Funny... I made this same argument regarding WB and why the entire concept behind it is flawed. I remember your response being "heroes fight heroes all the time in the comics".

So...

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lol JackButtface

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My, you certainly destroyed me utterly with your intelligent rebuttal of my points. Whatever am I going to do?

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Reply to the person, and show that you actually do care about someone calling you a name. Then act like a child and make yourself into a bigger bab*e*.

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Your mistake is assuming I give a squirt of warm urine about someone else calling me a name. I found the "JackButtface" thing seriously unoriginal. I've been called far worse by far more creative people, and this didn't even make me raise an eyebrow.

If you're going to directly insult me, try to do it in an entertaining manner. Or else get use to me sarcastically pointing out how bad you are at insulting people.

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(I understand that not every PvPer is "bad" like that. I will even concede that maybe most PvPers are not "bad" ones. But as long as the PvPer crowd tolerates the utter tools that are on their side of the fence, the general opinion of Non-PvPers is unlikely to change.

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And that, boys and girls, has been my point all along.

I don't hate PvP. I quite enjoy it, in fact. What I dislike are people treating other people like [censored] just for the fun of it.

And no, I'm not talking about the occasional newbgank... I'm talking about intentionally torturing someone else by making sure that the other person has no fun whatsoever playing this game.

The three idiots who treated the new guy so bad he SHUT THE DAMNED GAME DOWN because it was the only way for him to escape the [censored]-hats are the people I am talking about, not the occasional trash talker.

So please, those of you who keep talking about how its "subjective" or that I'm being unreasonable... are you really, truly trying to defend behavior that in the real world is considered so bad that defending it is unthinkable?

Is that what you are really trying to do here?

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Aren't there players out there besides just badgers and PvP'ers?

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Some of us are both.

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I'm having a really, really hard time believing nobody knows what Jack's talking about. It's true that it's hard to define what level of [blank]holery is unacceptable without descending into suffocating legalese, and I agree that Jack has used some (shall we say) sweeping generalizations in his rhetoric, but is everyone really going to act like they don't know what kind of conduct he's talking about?

Really?

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It serves their purpose to willfully pretend that they don't, it seems.

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lol JackButtface

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My, you certainly destroyed me utterly with your intelligent rebuttal of my points. Whatever am I going to do?

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Yeah that's really too broad a stroke their Jack.

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How so? I'm not the one who is trying to equate name-calling to being a poo monkey, so the broad stroak isn't mine.

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Yes there is. Look at your sig man. Calling anyone who causes any form of dismay to ANY person whatsoever is considered a Poo Monkey.

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You missed the part where I said "common sense applies as always", didn't you?

My sig refers to people who intentionally go out of their way to cause other people anguish. I'm talking about a bit more than just using harsh language on someone once.

If they did this in real life, they'd be arrested at best and sued at worst. But here in the game, too many people think there's nothing wrong with it.

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I'm simply looking for the existing rules to actually be enforced... which they aren't at this time, as you yourself have pointed out in the past.

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I am all for vigorous enforcement of the in game rules.

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Of course, it occurs to me that the problem comes in interpreting the rules.

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Jack Butler is a poo monkey.

See how that works?

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You mean do I see how you're not bothering to even try and respond to my posts, just insulting me out of hand? Yes, I see how that works.

To the primate house with you.

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I don't understand how you can posit that since the degree of negative impact in both cases is dependent on the reaction of the recipient. Someone could conceivably take great offense to being labeled that way or just seeing those words and leave the forums, how is that any different from someone who sees text in broadcast they don't like and leaving the zone?

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Because, as I am sure you are aware, the standard is a bit higher than just "I don't like what you are saying". You know from discussing this with me in the past that I'm not talking about smacktalk or even about getting the easy win but about eggregiously bad behavior. Common sense does apply. If you are being labelled a poo monkey then you've done something to deserve it.

As an aside, I still can't believe there are people who actually say "I have a right to treat other people like [censored] if I want to". I really can't.


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Jack, I understand what you're trying to do but the reality is that the "cure" you're proposing is worse than the disease you're trying to address. There isn't wide spread, and won't be, agreement on what items (over and above the official rules) should invoke a community sanction. Because you won't get a consensus all you really accomplish is creating a vigilante group, with all of the problems that such groups always create. (Favoritism, lack of due process, inconsistent enforcement, witch hunts, etc).

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I'm simply looking for the existing rules to actually be enforced... which they aren't at this time, as you yourself have pointed out in the past.

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Yes.

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Okay, fair statement. How is it hypocrisy? This feels akin to your saying "Calling a man who has robbed a bank a bank robber is wrong" to me, and that makes no sense. As Herodotus said, it is no insult to a dead man to say that he is dead. If someone is acting like an [censored]-hat, and everyone recognizes that he is acting like an [censored]-hat, how is pointing out that fact hypocrisy?

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Because dead is a well defined term. Whereas [censored]-hat is not only censoered it is also highly subjective. Your use of the word is engageing in the same activity that is provokeing you to call them a [censored]-hat. I dunno about hypocracy but it certainly a good case of becoming what you behold.

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Nonsense.

There is no comparison between my calling someone an [censored]-hat and hounding someone so badly they flee the game. No comparison at all.

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Yes.

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Okay, fair statement. How is it hypocrisy? This feels akin to your saying "Calling a man who has robbed a bank a bank robber is wrong" to me, and that makes no sense. As Herodotus said, it is no insult to a dead man to say that he is dead. If someone is acting like an [censored]-hat, and everyone recognizes that he is acting like an [censored]-hat, how is pointing out that fact hypocrisy?

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Until that is done, there is no such thing a united front, just some groups imposing their own point of view and others complaining about it.

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But this is contradictory... if, as you state, the Poo Monkeys are imposing their own point of view, why can't we do the same?


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Are there legit griefers? Absolutely, but only the game's official rules identify them and there is already a mechanism to handle them.

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Which has shown itself to be obviously ineffective.


I never said it would be easy, Thor. I just said it should be done.

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Well, I could see how some could consider this griefing, but I certainly don't consider it to be such.

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Let's see. "Harassing another player so badly that he leaves the game entirely isn't a bad thing". Check. "Blame the victim". Check.

To the primate house with you.

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Heh... when nobody knows anything.. everyones an expert. Isn't that right Jack?

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You're asking the wrong person. I know quite a bit, and am an expert on quite a few subjects.



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Blaming other people... and calling the people who CALL PEOPLE names, is like... uh.. being a Poo monkey. Am I right? Don't look through the window with your eyes closed.

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Non sequitor much?

If I've decoded your sentences correctly, you're saying that pointing out an anti-social player's actions are anti-social is hypocrisy somehow? I'm scrambling to understand your... interesting... use of the language here, so if you care to translate, I'd appreciate it.

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$10 says the player enjoys Achievement more than Exploring.

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Wouldn't that depend on how you define "achievement"?

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With one or two exceptions, the only players that I've known since before PvP was introduced who are still around today are those who are interested in PvP. Everyone else has moved on.

Why go through the same PvE content over and over when you can play a new game and get completely new content? I really don't know.

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I predate PvP in this game. I PvP, but am in no way a hardcore competitor. I do it for the occasional thrill, not the need to compete. Mostly, I play PvE and I always have. I've got two accounts full of alts that I use for nothing but PvE in fact.

Why do I play content I've played over and over? Because I am a concept player. I think of a good character idea, put it together, and run. Not roleplaying, just concept exploration. Plus, despite what you say the game is never the same way twice... or three times... or even seventeen times. There are always new experiences, mostly driven by other players.


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I don't even know what griefing in a PvP zone is!??!?! Maybe someone can explain.

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Let me give you the most eggregious example of griefing I've ever seen in a PvP zone. Some novice came in and actually asked for someone to give him a hand and show him the ropes. What he got was chain teleported deep into the zoned, ganked half a dozen times, and then when his gankers grew tired, he wasn't allowed to leave the zone.

When he got close to the gate, they'd port him back into the zone. Over and over. He had to disconnect in order to escape.

You'll excuse me for saying so, but I think that being forced to run away from the game in order to avoid being harassed counts as griefing. Wouldn't you agree?


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For me, badge hunting is my end-game content.

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And what happens when you get all the badges???

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You're not a badger or you'd know how difficult and challenging that truly is.

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Now, if you have a real solution to dealing with "poo monkeys" I'm all ears.

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Shutting them down within the limits of the game seems to work. There is nothing a bully fears more than a united front willing to fight back.

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PVP zones are not the exclusive domain of idiots.

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You are trying to refute a point that no one was making.

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Agreed with everything you said. The MAJORITY of pvpers, again I say MAJORITY are good people and play fair. Unfortunatly the reality is it just takes one idiot to drive a potential pvper away.

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And as I have already pointed out, when a PvE'er looks at PvP, he doesn't see the community-builders because the poo monkeys are making all the noise and gaining all the attention.

The PvE'ers aren't going to band together to make PvP more novice-friendly by putting leashes on the jerks... they're just going to walk away with the opinion that, because the loudest guys in the room are jerks, we're all jerks.

No, its up to us to police our own community. The problem is people who either a) see nothing wrong with the jerks, or b) see it all as an attitude problem on the part of the PvE'ers rather than as a problem on both sides.


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As far as I'm concerned its all one game.

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QFT

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Anyone that thinks that there are no PvPers that behave with respect for each other has been hanging out in the zones for way too long.

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I agree, which is why I didn't argue that there were none. I said that the problem was that the poo monkeys are (and will likely continue to be) the most visible members of our communities.

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So don't pretend that PvE'ers are a bunch of wusses who are over-sensitive. On the contrary, its us... the PvPers... who need to clean up our collective acts and start acting like human beings instead of a pack of rabid chimpanzees.

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What is that supposed to mean? Humans are and can be a number of different things. I think we all are, actiing like humans. ???

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I meant act with a modicum of respect for one another. The people who give us a bad name and drive away the PvE'ers are the mooks who are only in it to bust up the other guy's fun as quickly and as cruelly as possible, laughing the whole time.

I believe that you can be a successful PvPer without acting like an [censored] about it. Unfortunately, the most visible members of our community disagree.

I've actually had people tell me that they had a right... A RIGHT... to treat other people like fecal matter when I asked them to stop being such a butthead.

Win... just be a gracious winner. And stop thinking you have "Mad Skillz" if all you're doing is ganking an opponent who can't fight back, because you don't. Any fool can shoot fish in a barrell.

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Dude likes dirty things I guess

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Thank you for posting that. Definitions 1 and 4 fit my point perfectly as to the people who tend to drive away PvE'ers from PvP.


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By the way, he's just here for laughs. Don't take him too seriously. He might respond to you with long posts about irrelevant things that have nothing to do with the topic of the post.

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Speaking of... how is this part relevant to the topic of the post?

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[I might as well address this. Not everything has to be immediately useful or whatnot to bring pleasure to a person. Hell, some people in the real world might have their bottlecap or keychain collections...nothing incredible but there's something tied to each.

For me, I can remember exactly how each of my alts got their badges...who I was teamed with, how long it took, whether it was a farm or I faceplanted in a zone, whether they were annoying...they're something you can do in your downtime, some of them involve combat, and they're available without interfering on other player activities.


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Amen.