CassandraCorte

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I'm stilll waiting for your point.

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I've made my point. Several times. You are now willfully ignoring it... probably because you can't come up with anything actually relevant to say that shows my point to be incorrect or invalid.

You're obviously not actually interested in finding a common solution that solves the problem. You're just here to call people names, like pretty much every pro-farmer.

Very mature.

I'm done with you. You're not worth my time, or the time of any other intelligent person.




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1. Cassandra Corte holds that the way other people play the same game is causing her to be frustrated with the game, thus ruining her ability to have fun in that game. She is also frustrated with the attitude that players who do something she does not personally like take (namely that they shouldn't have to change their behavior at all, regardless of the fact that said behavior is a cause of frustration for certain other players), because she believes that, as adults, other people should be forced to change their behavior because she seems to be unable to control or deal with her own frustration.

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Fixed that for you, Cassandra. Seems to fit better...

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Straw Man and Ad Hominem combined. <Yawn> Go back to the kiddie table and let the grownups talk.



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1. Cassandra Corte holds that farming is causing her to be frustrated with the game, thus ruining her ability to have fun in that game.

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please elaborate how Farming(not exploiting ritki or bugged missions) prevents you from enjoying the game?

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I already have. At length. Look it up.

As for not being here to please me, has it occurred to you geniuses that the same applies to the other side of the aisle?

Of course it hasn't. You're too self-involved to show that sort of awareness.


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I submit that the inconsiderate people that annoy you are going to be inconsiderate no matter what, and that MA is not the problem.

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And thus, because you can't solve the problem completely, trying to do something that alleviates at least some of the problem is not worth doing.

That, sir, is a base and idiotic argument.


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Hahahaha. Only on the internet, I swear. Anywhere else, someone would be too ashamed to call people out for doing the same stuff they'd been doing for half a week.

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Your ad hominem attack would be more clever if it had even the scintilla of truth to it. Unfortunately, it doesn't. But nice try. Please go back to the kiddie table and let the grownups talk.

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Ahhhh...but that is the rub isn't it. YOU haven't given us any middle ground either. Your entire stance is for us to stop doing what we like to do.

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Straw Man: The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

In this specific case:

1. Cassandra Corte holds that farming is causing her to be frustrated with the game, thus ruining her ability to have fun in that game. She is also frustrated with the attitude farmers take (namely that they shouldn't have to change their behavior at all, regardless of the fact that said behavior is a cause of frustration for certain other players), because she believes that, as adults, there should be some sort of middle ground where everyone can at least be mostly happy.

2. Shadowstepper responds by saying that Cassandra Corte wants farmers to stop farming all together. This is an incorrect, invalid, and distorted version of Cassandra Corte's actual opinion.

3. Shadowstepper "refuted" this false version of Cassandra Corte's position by saying that it is unreasonable, and that Cassandra Corte refuses to compromise thusly.

4. Therefore, Cassandra Corte's actual position is supposedly incorrect on the basis of the refutation of the distorted version, rather than on its own merits.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself.

In short, if you are going to respond to what I am saying, respond to what I am saying and not to what you so desperately wish I was saying because what you wish I was saying is so easy to refute.

I specifically said let's find some way to compromise. If you go back through all my posts, not once did I ever type "stop farming".

Not.

Once.



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You don't see any of us complaing about your mission teams.

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Red Herring: A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.

In this specific example:

1. Farming is under discussion.

2. Shadowstepper raises the question of mission teams under the guise of being relevant to farming (when mission teams are not, in fact, relevant to farming).


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We just drop and move on to something we want to do. Did you explain to them that you were doing missions before you invited them?

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Yes, actually, I did. I alway send introductory tells when I invite people, letting them know what sort of team its is. I do this because I'm considerate.


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Or did you just blindly invite them even though you have the same problems with it. You can't do something yourself, then complain when someone else does it to you on the other end of the spectrum.

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And now we're back to Red Herrings.




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Once more, I ask anyone who wishes to calm down and have a serious debate about this to PM me and we'll talk. But this everyone should be forced somehow to play like me crap is getting very old.

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And a return to Straw Men.



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Where is the live and let live?

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And yet another Straw Man.

Are you planning on going back and actually addressing my points now that you're done playing your silly games?

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[And in doing so make the game frustraing for those of us who like to play in a reasonable, intelligent fashion not governed by go-fever and treasure-lust.


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Must be nice to have the right to force others to do things your way to satisfy your whims

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You tell me. You're the one forcing me to put up with things I find frustrating.


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Please expand on how one group farming is intruding on how you play your game?

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You make the gaming environment frustrating. I have to choose between turning off the broadcast channel, or else put up with hundreds of farm-spam an hour just on the off chance that someone says something I want to hear. That is frustrating, and frustrating equals not fun.

It is growing increasingly difficult to put together a team for non-AE content at all, let alone non-farm AE content. Three out of four times I invited someone to a team today, the person would join, and then immediately quit when they found out we'd be doing missions rather than just farming. Six out of the six teams I was invited to today were AE farm teams, despite my search comment being "I DO NOT FARM! NO EXCEPTIONS!" That is frustrating, and frustrating equals not fun.

The lag caused by the gathering o' farmers is frustrating. Frustrating equals not fun.

The fact that, like others here have found, no one is interested in playing story arcs that actually have stories, despite the hours one puts into their AE creations is frustrating. Frustrating equals not fun.

The arrogant, overbearing, and pushy attitude farmers have toward non-farmers is frustrating. (Best example? How about the human toadstool who, just a couple of posts ago in this very thread, called me lazy and stupid, which, given that the entire concept of farming is based on "I don't want to have to actually play the game" is also hypocrisy writ large?) Frustrating equals non-fun.

The utter lack of concern farmers hold toward other people is frustrating. When we non-farmers bring up how we dislike the entire City of Farmers problem, your immediate reaction is to poo-poo our concerns as if we weren't really feeling what we were feeling (or even better, tell us we have no justification for our feelings), and that we have to allow you to play as you like and are evil or something for even considering trying to make farming harder for you... but that we, the non-farmers, just have to suck it up when you, the farmers, make it harder for us to have fun too. That's frustrating. And frustrating equals not fun.


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Because all you are saying to those of us on the other side is that "You guys should be made to play like I want you to" All we are saying is "We should be allowed to play like we want and you should be allowed to play like you want as long as noone is breaking any rules."

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Ah, but "not breaking any rules" isn't good enough, I'm afraid. Its entirely possible in this game to treat another human being like fecal material without breaking any rules; the fact that its not against the rules doesn't make it right.

If what you are doing makes things less fun for me, then you should be willing to compromise with me to make things fun for both of us. I'm certainly willing. I've yet to hear one farmer say anything of the sort, however; as I have already pointed out, the average response from farmers is "S T F U!".

Really constructive. And frustrating. And you should know by now what frustrating equals.


Addendum: The atttitude the farmers are displaying now really reflects back to the gankers and the poo monkeys who used to howl and rage and beat their chests any time anyone suggested that it wasn't their perfect right to screw over other human beings in PvP. Not just beat them, but humiliate them, make fun of them, insult them, and drive them out of PvP.

Are you guys really sure you want *that* to be your representative attitude?

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I have worked 15 toons to 50 by doing content, forming teams and doing content. So I know what a load of BS you are pushing here.

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One again, you call me names instead of respond to anything I'm actually say.

You're not worth my time, young man. Go back to the kiddie table and let the grownups talk.

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We are playing how we want for our 15 $ we are not breaking any rules.

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And in doing so make the game frustraing for those of us who like to play in a reasonable, intelligent fashion not governed by go-fever and treasure-lust.

I'm glad you're having fun, but what you do for fun makes what I do for fun less fun. Why do you, by your own argument, have the right to have whatever fun you want at the expense of my having fun? You keep bringing up the fact that you are paying your $15 a month and thus get to play like you like, but what about my $15 a month? Doesn't that mean I get to play like I like, too?

The problem being, of course, that I can't play like I like, because you and your cohorts are ruining the atmosphere for me.

I'm still waiting for someone to justify that. How is your having fun more important, objectively, than my having fun? Because in the end, that's what you are saying. That you have the right, by way of your $15 a month, to make things less fun for me, while I, despite my own $15 a month, DO NOT have the right to tread on your fun as you are treading on mine.

Please. Enlighten me. How do you justify that?

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Your contribution to this thread was invaluable, thank you for participating.

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You're very welcome. I figure it like this: why should the pro-farming side of the aisle be the only ones with childish buttheads making their arguments?



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Well, if you are too lazy or stupid to form a team, what do you expect. All the time you see 10 people LFT LFT. two of them actually forming one would fix the whole problem. But that would take work.

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Aheh. Yeah. I'm sure. Ignoring the part where the people I invite to the team I'm trying to form jump ship the femtosecond they find out we're not going to farm AE rubbish, obviously I'm just lazy and stupid.

Look... if this is the best you can do, please go back to the kiddie table and let the grown-ups talk, okay?



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I thought that was exactly the point of this thread. Raising the issue to the devs and other players.

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No, the point of this thread was for people who don't like farming to raise the issue, and for people who love farming to make fun of and dismiss the arguments of the people who dislike it. There's no debate here.

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How ironic that NCSoft puts out its new box, and related advertising, to pull in new players when the game they're being introduced to is a caricature of what it was meant to be.

Regular teaming is dead. In an hour in Virtue AP I saw one LFT that wasn't AE/Farm related, and I'm betting there were zero takers for that. Is this really what anyone wants new players to see?

"Here's this cool superhero MMO. What you do is you create a character, then you go into this building in the start zone and kick the crap out of one kind of enemy. Over and over and over again. Within a day or two you'll have a level 50 character. Warning: if you DO decide to play some real missions you'll find progression unbelievably slow in comparison, so you probably won't want to do that. If you do you'd better get used to soloing."

More importantly, will they stick around if their source of instant gratification is taken away from them? Will they stick around if it isn't?

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read that as..."oh! I stood around atlas for an hour! nobody asked me on broadcast to form a team.....even if I was running a lvl 45 scrapper"

Meanwhile in PI, teams are forming all over the place because they !GASP! put on their LFt flag and started forming a team instead of being a lazy [censored] and letting someone else do the work.

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Read as: I LIKE FARMING BECAUSE I CAN'T GET TO 50 IF I HAVE TO ACTUALLY EARN IT, SO DON'T TAKE MY TOY AWAY! WAAAAAH!

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This distills the essence of the farm whinefest magnificently. "I don't like it, so why should you be able to do it?"

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As opposed to your side of the argument? "I like it, so any criticism of it is merely "extremist whining"?

The only answers I've ever seen coming from the pro-farming side of the hall is "I pay my $15 a month and can play as I like. Get over it!" Since you ignored my point, let me remind you of it: [u]I PAY TO PLAY THE GAME TOO![u].

Now stop tapdancing and answer the farking question for once: why is your opinion of what is right and good in CoH more important than what I think?

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Even if it is not a pure code exploit that does not mean it is normal or acceptable that a player in MA can easily have access to several pool C ( Golden Rolls ) for minimal risk/effort while players doing other content in game that is harder or more time-consuming ( TFs ) get less reward. I call that broken.

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I call that life. Seeing as the this is a game and what parts of it you play are entirely up to you its not a problem. People are playing for what they think is fun. Should base editing grant xp and merits ? Its time consuming and difficult to do well ?

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The problem being, those of us who *don't* like AE farming are paying our $15 a month and are having our fun impacted by you having yours. Tell me, chumley... what makes your fun more important than mine? If what you do frustrates me and causes me to want to pull my hair out, why should I just sit and blindly let you continue to do it?

I'm always amazed how, every time anyone complains about anything, the most common response is "S-T-F-U ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL PROBLEM, NEWB!"

Regardless of how politely the person placing the complaint frames their issue, or how well-defended their argument, a horde of people (who are usually in favor of whatever is complained about) marginalizes everything with "if you don't like it leave" or "ignore it and shut up" or some other non-response that ignores the issues being brought up.

Yes, "there has been farming always", but before I14 institutionalized the farming in a dev-supported manner, it was something that was a whole hell of a lot easier to ignore. And it didn't have anywhere near the impact on teaming to do things other than farming. Yes, the problems were there before, but all I14 did was aggravate them.

And let's get one thing straight right now. Despite what the Farmheads keep saying here and in the other forum threads, the City of Farming issue is a problem. It is harming the game experience (that is, the *FUN*) for a lot of players. And when a player isn't having fun, he'll take his $15 a month (or in my case, $60 a month... my kids all have their own accounts too) somewhere else. If that happens often enough, the devs might regret giving sanction to farming through I14.

Regarding the non-play issue. I'm another person who spent several hours putting together a mission with an actual storyline, only to see it NEVER GET PLAYED because its been forced to the bottom of the list after all the farking farms. That's frustrating, and frustrating = NOT FUN. More reason for me to not renew my subscription to CoH. And I'm not the only one.

To all you hairballs who say "move to a different server", I've got 36 alts on my primary server. I've been playing on that server since I started the game. Why the hell should I walk just because you jerks are ruining the server for me now?

Yeah, its a personal problem. Its just a game. But you know what? If we were sitting across a table "just playing a game" and you guys acted in the idiotic manner the farmers act, I'd toss your [censored] out of my house. Because "just a game" isn't a reason to piss all over other people.

Just my three drachmas. Your mileage obviously varies.

My eight year old has been playing on his own for the past two years (his mains are the mighty Mistryus Stranger and the evil Doctor Mind Conchroul... his spelling reflects the fact that he's only in second grade, I'm afraid). He learned to read the Zone names before that by sitting on my lap and being "mouse captain". That is, it was his job to click on doors, glowies, and other clickables, while it was my job to move and fight.

My favorite moment from watching him play by himself was when he turned toward me one day and said "I don't like Freakshow, Mommy... they get up."

And he won't go to Dark Astoria. He actually had a nightmare after the first time, so I support him in this boycott.

Real Name: Unknown. Uses aliases such as Bruce Kent, Peter Stark, Tony Parker, Clark Wayne, or Rusty Shackleford.

Hero Codename: The Masked Crusader

Born: Unknown. Somewhere around 1975-1980.

The young man who would grow up to be the Masked Crusader was born and raised in King's Row. He grew up right next to a Skulls hideout, ignored by a corrupt cop and his cronies. He went to school and learned from a teacher who was obviously one of the Fifth Column. Later on in his life, he went to work with people who were controlled by the Family.

Then, after the Rikti invasion, he decided that he had to do something about it. He went through an intense period of physical and mental training, until he was ready.

He didn't have magical abilities. He didn't have a fortune and a suit of armor that could take out armies. He didn't have a knack for hurling lightning bolts from his fingertips, or a talent for controlling people's minds.

What he had was a baseball bat, and the determination to deal with the evil, corruption, and injustice in Paragon City.

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Not an argument, an opinion. Not trolling just sick of all the people with entitlement issues.

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No, it is trolling. You're lumping everyone into one big sack and slapping an unpleasant label on it. That, sir, is trolling.



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My problem is people who want the whole, or most of, the level range of names up for grabs because they didn't get "The Red Bull" that some level 30 fire tank has and they feel their concept is sooooooooo much better and they really, really deserve it. And they can't live with "Roter Bulle" or "Toro Rojo" or some such.

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Those people aside, this sort of culling simply makes sense. If Joe Player's account has been shut down for eight months and there's no sign of him ever coming back, what then is the tragedy if all his characters are renamed "GenericWhatever" and the names freed up?

Because that is what we are talking about, for the most part. The number of "name campers" who are simply sitting on minimally active accounts with unplayed characters can't outnumber the true inactives.

So wherefore the problem?

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I can believe it. Some people don't have the ability to use their imagination. "i r gut teh gud name idea! Then they find out the "gud" name isn't available. After they get done crying about it they whine some and add a dot or slashes or some other odd character to the name to get the one they want. They don't want to put the thought into alternate names.

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Sometimes. And sometimes they put a load of thought into alternative names and the other seven or eight names they come up with are also taken.

Happened to me once, which is why one of my 50s has a period at the end of his name. Don't be so quick to judge people in the future, is my suggestion.

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Perhaps I'm being obtuse here, but I don't see a point. What have you presented that hasn't been refuted? What evidence, other than timing, have you or anyone else presented?

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Well, let's see... you haven't refuted *anything* I have said, at all. So "everything I've said so far" is the answer to the first question. As for the second, well, "everything I have said so far" is also the answer.

Thor, you're usually better than "your point is refuted because I say it is". What's up? Not feeling very good today?

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Jack you can use Latin all you won't, it still doesn't make your argument hold water. The devs have smacked dozens if not hundreds of things that they thought allowed leveling too quickly, most of which didn't generate a single complaint before the correction and many afterwards. Aggro cap changes, AoE limits, and to a certain extent ED are examples of this kind of change. Making the Banished Pantheon in DA harder is another.

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So you've gone from ignoring a common cause to red herring. Care to actually address my point?


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I'm sorry, but I see lots of people making unsubstantiated connections and basing their arguments on assumptions, nothing more.

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And all I see is one person so stuck in their own dogmatic mindset that they refuse to see evidence for what it is.

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I'm sorry, but I don't believe that thread ever existed, at least not in a form that said the reason was PvP. IIRC, the devs have never admitted to a strong link between PvP and the introduction of suppression. If they had, this debate wouldn't have been going on for years the way that it has.


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Sure it would.

But he was right about one thing... it wasn't the Tsoo, the Clockwork, the Skulls, and so on creating the hue and cry to end jousting and hover sniping... it was the PvP players.

Who, of course, weren't PvP players prior to I4.

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Whose definition? The devs said it was a problem in PvE and numerous players have stated how it was used in an exploitive fashion. Correlation is _not_ causation.

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Yes, I am quite aware of post hoc ergo propter hoc. However, the timing is suspicious. The devs said it was a problem only {i]after[/i] they implemented travel suppression. Numerous players have stated that it was a problem since the implementation of travel suppression. However, I remember the "good old days" pre-travel suppression, and at that point no great cloud of players were demanding that travel powers needed gimping, and there was no indication whatsoever pre-PvP that it would occur.

In short, it was a problem that no one noticed because it was causing no one any difficulties. Had it not been for PvP, no one would have cared.


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The fact that travel suppression was added in after does not indicate that it was added because of PvP. AFAIK the only evidence that PvP influenced the decision to add suppression is the fact that it came shortly after the initial introduction of the arena.

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Just FYI: Ignoring a common cause is just as much a logical fallacy as post hoc ergo propter hoc.

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Many folks (like me) disagreed with this facade and called it what it truly was, a significant correction of a PvP problem that significantly affected PvE playstyle. My sarcasm above clearly reflects my chagrin with the devs' answer to jousting. There were no problems with PvE for 4 isssues. As soon as PvP reared it's ugly head, all of a sudden it was all about how unfair we had been exploiting the AI of all those poor NPCs. Thank you, very much, Dread Lords.

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You know, its funny I keep seeing people post this and it always make me laugh. I certainly exploited travel powers in PvE with my Blaster (first character) and suppression is more likely to be negated in (team) PvP via buffs than it is in PvE. I can't say what the devs "true" motivations are/were, but to claim that there was no PvE justification for making changes to how travel powers operate in combat is false. Would if have been changed if PvP were never introduced? I don't know, but at a minimum the situation is more complex than you've presented it.

*anti-smirk*

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Sorry, but if a problem doesn't actually present any difficulty, then its not a problem; it wasn't presenting any difficulty before PvP, ergo it was not a problem prior to PvP.

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[No its not. Let me see if I can clarify this for you. Whether or not a person enjoys re-using any given type of content _is_ a completely subjective decision based on personal preferences. However, the _fact_ is that PvP content is more reusable by far more people than PvE content is not subjective, it can be demonstrated via statistical analysis.

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Based on what concrete, non-anecdotal data? Your "data" is nothing more or less than the opinions of others. Subjective opinions. You have no objective data upon which to base your opinion, Thor.





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For most gamers (not all), PvP content has more replay value than PvE content.

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You have no data to support this. It is your opinion only.

Let me clarify: all your data says is that more players play games with heavy PvP content. Nothing in your data speaks to the reusability of that PvP content, just that more players are taking part of it.

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I don't think that is subjective at all, it doesn't mean that it holds true for each individual but its certainly true from a statistical view point.

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But the fact that there are people for whom it doesn't hold true renders your statement entirely subjective. Its your opinion, and you have the right to it, and I might even agree with it, but its still just your opinion and as such is subjective by definition.

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What I do suggest, is that not funding PvP is entirely short sighted because PvP content is much more reusable than PvE content and I see both as contributing to the success of a modern MMO.

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How are you defining "reusable"? I ask because I know players who have been here two years now, know the PvE content by heart, and yet still come up with new toons on a regular basis to re-experience that same "less reusable" content. Seeing that, I think the entire issue of "content reusability" is entirely subjective.

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Woa, Idea man!

*Juggernaut*

One player is spawned into the PvP zone, every player in the zone is on the same team, and their goal is to defeat the player that is given super-AV level power.

Said player will have a timer of 5:00 minuntes to be Juggernaut, and it will pick at random, so as to not unfairly pick same person over and over.

If Juggernaut is defeated it will randomly attach to another player, and whoever defeats the Juggernaut will get some kind of really good reward, like bounty. Or something.

Since it will take more than one person to kill the juggernaut, they can make it so its like a monster. Give whichever team that does (10% right?) the rewards.

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That would be severely cool.

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Somebody must play Ogre

EDIT: Curses! Scooped

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Somebody does.

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Now, if you have a real solution to dealing with "poo monkeys" I'm all ears.

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Shutting them down within the limits of the game seems to work. There is nothing a bully fears more than a united front willing to fight back.

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I have yet to see that really work. IME all it does is encourage them.

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I've found the opposite. Your mileage may vary.

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Woa, Idea man!

*Juggernaut*

One player is spawned into the PvP zone, every player in the zone is on the same team, and their goal is to defeat the player that is given super-AV level power.

Said player will have a timer of 5:00 minuntes to be Juggernaut, and it will pick at random, so as to not unfairly pick same person over and over.

If Juggernaut is defeated it will randomly attach to another player, and whoever defeats the Juggernaut will get some kind of really good reward, like bounty. Or something.

Since it will take more than one person to kill the juggernaut, they can make it so its like a monster. Give whichever team that does (10% right?) the rewards.

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That would be severely cool.