Bill Z Bubba

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'll be very interested in seeing what it and the gladiator will do for FU, Slash, Eviscerate.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not much. Here's what I have so far.

Claws:
227 DPS Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash
217 DPS Follow Up -> Slash -> Focus -> Slash
201 DPS Follow Up -> Slash -> Eviscerate

Dual Blades:
241 DPS Blinding Feint -> Ablating Strike -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike
226 DPS Blinding Feint -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike

Spreadsheet

[/ QUOTE ]

Bought all the necessary IOs on live. Copied to test.

Time to bring down pylon with FU, Slash, Evisc? 12:26

That's right: 12:26

Your Calculated DPS: 201
Actual DPS on first run: 179.212

Going for another run after a smoke and a beer.

Thing is, I'll probably keep this build because FU/Spin/Eviscerate is glorious farming damage.

I agree that discussion is good.
I agree that the devs will not run with this idea.

They want blasters to be more efficient at damage dealing than the defender.
They want tanks to be more efficient at taking damage.
They want scrappers to be more efficient at dishing it out.

Why else would defenders get an endurance buff when their team is dying?

Stone gets 218 DPS for the chain I worked up. But it burns 5.2 end per second where the EM chain only burns 3.8.

So there's a plus in EM's park.

AoE and mitigation still suck, of course.

[ QUOTE ]
However, we need to adapt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will be.

Energy Transfer/Gloom/Bonesmasher/Total Focus repeat

207.4 DPS. And that's without figuring in any damage procs.

Between your sheet and mine (once I found your +22% from SetIO buff and 10.5% from assault) we have a difference of 7.6 DPS.

And my sheet can't take into account the Achilles' Heel -DR proc yet, so that covers that.

I think I'll be very interested in seeing what it and the gladiator will do for FU, Slash, Eviscerate.

Werner, my first question would be "Why should I trust Mids' average damage calculation?"

Do you get the same values if you figure out the actual damage longhand?

[ QUOTE ]
(edit: Both of my main scrappers do in the neighborhood of 175 DPS, and I'm perfectly happy with that.)

[/ QUOTE ]

heretic.


[ QUOTE ]

i dont see much of a reason to to test sets that the two at's dont actually have

[/ QUOTE ]

Because we were told "all sets that make sense go to all ATs" was the goal. What that means, I don't know.

But that's not why I'm doing it.

I have a new goal, and that goal is to put to rest the brute damage>scrapper damage/scrapper damage>brute damage argument.

[ QUOTE ]
But now it looks like you're trying to draw comparisons between Brutes and Scrappers for "normal" content in "normal" situations, and for that, 90% is simply too high an average.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about we split the difference and go with 75%? I do so only at gunpoint though. While I accept that fury drops between spawns, I just don't understand how my fellow brute players aren't slamming against 90% with every spawn they encounter.

Unless my perception of events is heavily affected by my soloist bias. Which is entirely possible.

[ QUOTE ]
Biillz...
You think you could do Claws for Brutes?
Probably would be the same results as DB but I'm just a little curious...

[/ QUOTE ]

Already done a while back, Iggy. Or at least a comparison was done here.

But I might as well go for broke and proliferate all brute sets to scrapper and vice versa.

[ QUOTE ]
You can basically sneeze and beat a Tank's damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

But burping causes less of a debuff to self, so I'm sticking with the belch.

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm after isn't necessarily a buff, it's a more level playing field. That might even mean a NERF, though I honestly think that would only compound the problems with endurance.

The problem I see is that endurance is not an issue for some characters and is positively gamebreaking for others. I was just hoping to find a way to alleviate the problem in a balanced fashion.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this were the case, you wouldn't be comparing scrappers and tanks. Or brutes and tanks.

You'd be comparing powersets with endurance management tools and those without.

An invul/stone tank is going to run dry far more often than a willpower/dark tank, won't he?

Chasing after this concept of "damage should equate to end expenditure" won't get you anywhere. Not in this game.

Thanks, Rad.

Next step is to go with 42.4% recharge on every power. Pretend we're slotting with nothing but level 50 basic IOs.

Use only pool powers accessible to both sides. Use identical chains for both sides.

But I can guess how that's going to turn out:
Scrap Dual Blades 169.7
Brute Dual Blades 168.3

Just like that. I honestly think folks need to pay more attention to that data chunk right there. The scrapper and brute used identical chains and the scrapper won by a measly 1.4DPS.

Something to think about.

Or is it just an error in CoD?

[ QUOTE ]
I think somebody reported that those info includes critical and that's why Dark Blast is showing that much damage. In reality, its damage is a bit lower than Smite.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I use the unspecified damage listed in CoD for everything I do.

The ONLY discrepancy I noted was when Sarrate pointed out that brute/tank have a different scaler for the lethal part of greater fire sword than scrappers.

Actually... it's confusing even then:
* 1 Negative damage PvE only

* ToHit 0.75000 Melee_DeBuff_ToHit% for 6s

* 1.09 Negative damage If target is a player

* 1.09 Negative damage PvP only, If Hidden

* 1.09 Negative damage (20% chance) PvP only, If not Hidden but target is Held or Slept

* 1 Negative damage PvE only, If not Hidden

* 1 Negative damage PvE only, If Hidden

Does scale 1 damage. Then it does another scale one damage if not hidden or if hidden? huh?

[ QUOTE ]
Rather than use the numbers as a justification for any kind of expected change in anything, I see them more as "Hey, I want to try out that build for a ride!" sentiment, to see how certain combinations can work when you really give it the work-through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which was actually my goal. This whole thing started because I was looking for how to best optimize my claws/sr scrapper and em/fa brute. Then I thought about how much damage the fm/sd combo must push out and wanted to know how best to configure that.

This whole exercise just steamrolled from there.

I had no intentions of this becoming a "scrappers need buffed" "brutes need nerfed" "gloom is of the devil" thread.

I have to disagree with the thought that 90% fury isn't easily attainable. Against hard targets boss, eb, av, pylon it's a given.

Solo and sprinting between spawns to keep downtime to a minimum, I'll fluctuate between 70 and 90, only dipping to 70 right before connecting with the next spawn.

On the topic of recharge, I can not agree enough. That is only attainable at the highest levels of IO slotting backed by hasten. However, we could also use the same methodology to find chains utilizing no more than the recharge provided by a single level 50 basic IO.

Those chains won't be efficient but they do exist, because we all use them as climb up from one to 50. "Is an attack ready to fire off? Good! Use it!" Yall know the drill.

I think a few guns are being jumped here.

As noted, a lot of the brute chains are being ridiculously buffed by ONE outstanding power: Gloom

If we take gloom out of the equation and replace it with, say dark blast, guess what's going to happen to those DPS numbers?

Better than guess, tonight/tomorrow I'll do just that. While I realize that my actions here may bring about a nerf to gloom and thus bring the ire of many a player upon my head, we all know that Castle WILL nerf a single power to bring about balance prior to giving a wholesale damage buff to scrappers whom, I agree, hardly need such a buff.

That said, I am NOT against equalizing scrapper/brute mitigation caps. I've never thought that brutes deserved tanker caps. I've long thought that scrappers should have higher caps than blasters/controllers/etc.

My wish is 80% for brutes and scrappers. I find that fair. Or put them both at 75% and lower the the squishies to 60%.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Werner, even at 314% recharge and doing FU/Slash/Focus repeat, I'm only getting 157DPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure the correct number of FU stacking is used?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm not sure. As a matter of fact, I know I didn't change it at all from doublestacked. I'll do so later.

Umbral, I would not bat an eye if brute mitigation caps were made identical to scrappers. I would, however, throw a rod if the devs decided to tone down fury so that brute damage was closer to tanker damage than scrapper damage.

And I won't be surprised to see a Gloom nerf in the near future.

Werner, even at 314% recharge and doing FU/Slash/Focus repeat, I'm only getting 157DPS.

Sarrate, I have no argument with anything you stated.

And the EPS I listed for Scrapper Super Strength is wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Boo

Claws still second to last...
Well atleast it's not MA...

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure we can fix that with more recharge and procs.

[/ QUOTE ]

More recharge I don't think will help.

There was very little difference between FU/Slash/Focus/Strike, FU/Slash/Eviscerate and the long FU/Sl/F/Sl/FU/F/Sl/F chains.

SuperStrength on scrappers kinda blows using just SS powers.

Chain: KOB/Punch/Jab/Haymaker/Punch/Jab: 9.897 seconds 4.72 EPS
Same uptime on Rage but accounting for base +100% buff instead of 80%

DPS: 185.4 Below Brute Battleaxe and above Scrap Dark w/3

If someone can give me a better chain, even using pool powers if necessary, I'll recalculate it.

EDIT: WRONG. Missed two cells on DPA. Fixed.

[ QUOTE ]
Just out of curiosity though, why do scrapper gets stronger -tohit than tankers? RTTC is stronger for scrappers than tankers, for one, as are all -tohit and -damage debuffs (that would be noticed when Ice Armor gets proliferated)

[/ QUOTE ]

No idea. Seems broken to me. Tanks should get more benefit from all debuffs while scrappers should get more benefit from all buffs in my mind. Debuff = mitigation, Buff = offense.

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity: how can some one that agrees dominators that can lock down everything do as much damage as they are going to do now be so against a simple endurance boost?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm for is having the damage buff removed from domination and used to buff the base damage of dominators. I do not believe that doms can "lock down everything." Dom controls are their mitigation and I consider it massive hyperbole for someone to state that dom controls are as good as tank mitigation at keeping a player alive.

[ QUOTE ]
If castle came out tomorrow and said tankers go their damage boosted to .95, would your next post be how broken it is or how you are going to now play a fun tank? I'm seriously curious if you would be upset with him stating such a buff was in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would tell Castle to quit mainlining cocaine and then ask where the scrapper mitigation buff was.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that SS is too good for scrappers is complete BS

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that doesn't really hold. The reason that Brutes are capable of doing so much damage is because they're capable of generating a large amount of +dam thanks to native benefits (Fury) which counteracts their lower +dam modifier and scalar. Rage means less to a Brute because, adding an extra 160% +dam means less when you're already packing 95% from enhancements and 180% from Fury. SS for Scrappers would be utterly borked because, rather than having an increase from 275% to 435%, it would have an increase of 95% exclusively from enhancements to 295% from Rage plus enhancements.

Brutes != Scrappers

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Umbral, it would be easy to port the brute SS data over to a scrapper. Doing so now and will report back.

Ooops... scrappers don't get gloom.

Anyone got an SS chain without pool powers?

Can someone show me how to figure out average DPS gain from the DR debuff procs? My brain has slipped back into lazy mode.

I'm really pondering this FU, Slash, Eviscerate with the two -DR procs.

If I go with the build I'm looking at right now, I'll have 256.7 recharge in Eviscerate which gives me a gapless chain and base 148.6 DPS not including the damage procs.