BellaStrega

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I dont think this can happen because of defenders. For Controllers, you take away hurricane and they still have all their tools from their primary to defend them. Take it away from defenders and...storm defenders get squished like all other defenders. Its literally their best and only defense.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately this is enough to make many melees hate us and want it nerfed. the whole "I looked at that defender and he didn't die, please nerf him" craze. Granted anyone with a mezz can beat a storm defender, anyone with range can overcome hurricane and if a melee has buffs from their teamates (or learns to jump with a toggle dropping attack) they can overcome hurricane. So how is it overpowerful again?

[/ QUOTE ]

I only ever made arguments resembling this to make a point about some of the arguments used in reference to melee ATs. I have no real interest in nerfing storm.

I mention this because I have made such arguments, and I feel they were as defensible as the "toggle-dropping is necessary to fight melee ever" arguments. That is to say, "not at all."

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They wouldn't nerf defenders. We're the most balanced AT, after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't hear you over the six slots I had to put into pet gaze. What was that again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, well, we're balanced but we're not allowed to have anything resembling a good control powers.

Controlling is for controllers while...er...well, something or other is for defenders, but I'm not quite sure what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anything that no other AT does well is okay for defenders.

[ QUOTE ]
They wouldn't nerf defenders. We're the most balanced AT, after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't hear you over the six slots I had to put into pet gaze. What was that again?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious to know about the bug and whether there is any cap for -range debuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's been labeled as 'working as intended', but the rough and tumble is that Blaster, Dominator, Defender, Controller, Corruptor, and Mastermind melee attacks can be debuffed to 0 range, effectively never able to be used while debuffed. Meanwhile, Tanker, Brute, Stalker, and Scrapper ranged attacks don't suffer a -range debuff at all.

There's no real -range floor, other than 0.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe there should be a -range floor of 5 feet.

Then everyone can have their range debuffed again.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of us unskilled folks prevent them from being built nearly every time.

[/ QUOTE ]Creating the FF gen is an interruptable event which means puttinga toggle on the Raider stops the gen from being created.....provided you are the first to aggro him....guess what happens when you are the first to aggro a mob in the spawn?

I never said I have perfect knowledge about the game. But unlike you, I recognize that I have imperfect knowledge and as such it gives me pause as to criticizing the devs about the choices they make.

[/ QUOTE ]

I routinely used Darkest Night to interrupt engineers. I don't recall much badness coming from this.

Good point on maybe not buffing themselves.

I have no idea.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That PFF and Dispersion display both graphics isn't a glitch,

[/ QUOTE ] I would argue that the DB should be reduced to form a bubble within the bubble of PFF. If DB is still displayed as a large bubble, and this is no different with PFF on or off, then the fact that the effect is limited by PFF and the graphic isn't, is imo glitchy.

I am in the bubble...I get the bonus. I am still in the bubble...I get no bonus? Players should be able to rely on the graphic of the bubble to know that they are getting protection. My .10

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is more a matter of preference than a glitch. I believe the Disp Bubble graphic is working as intended, but it can be confusing when the FF defender hits PFF.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It shouldn't be too hard to test, though - just hit the FFG with a hold, and then with a confuse. If your teammates get the buff, it still buffs. If not, it doesn't.


[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure why you think this would be dispositive. FF's and Eminators are immune to Confuse and Deceive every time I've seen this tried.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard it was possible. I haven't tried it yet (my highest controller is 20, and I haven't done any level 20+ content with her). Now I have to. Even though it probably won't work, I have to know.

[ QUOTE ]
Does DB still put the bubble around a teammate when PFF is in operation? If not...then maybe the same test would be applicable to FF Gens. Does the bubble disappear around the Raiders? If I did, that would probalby be a strong indication the debuff is cancelled.

[/ QUOTE ]

That glitch we talked about is very common with the generators. I've seen bubbles persist on Sky Raiders after the generator exploded many many times in the past week (since hitting the 20s with my blaster).

[ QUOTE ]
It seems very likely that the buff is auto and can't be turned off, especially on something like an eminator. As for as feelling like the hold stops the debuff on gens...

[/ QUOTE ]

Lately, the generators just don't feel that strong. I can bonesmasher them without build up more than half the time.

[ QUOTE ]
I was under the impression that NPCs don't use toggles, and that all their powers are "clicks." Which is why using a Hold or Disorient on a flying enemy doesn't cause them to fall from the sky. Did that change?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you hold or stun a behemoth, his invincibility will drop immediately. The same goes for a ruin mage and his dispersion bubble. Some (most, maybe all) flying NPCs have flight as an inherent, rather than a toggle, which means you need -fly to drop them from the sky.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have seen this too on very rare occasions.

[/ QUOTE ] It occurs to me that maybe when I saw/see this it might be from toons higher level than the mobs. I recall that they changed the way Monsters worked so that heroes could no longer be higher level than they were or something to that effect. So some of this knockback may have been before the changes were implemented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last night I was on a team of 8 including an FF defender, a mind controller, an ice/storm controller, someone with energy blast, and my ice/energy blaster. We were running in Croatoa.

Someone managed to knock Eochai down. Not sure who, though. We had enough knockback to sink Titanic, after all.

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously we are talking about glitches. Obvioulsy there should be an "always" in front of "determinative.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not obviously a glitch. That PFF and Dispersion display both graphics isn't a glitch, after all, which was an example you used.

[ QUOTE ]
We are talking about, or at least I am talking about, things like Tar Patch's debuff graphic which used to stay on mobs long after the debuff wore off. Or maybe when I see disorient graphics on my toon and he or she is not disoriented. etc. etc. etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those appear to be different circumstances, hence the distinction. It could be that the generator is glitched so that the dispersion bubble displays while held. However, it seems odd that it would only happen to the FFG, and not to anything else in the game that uses dispersion bubbles (admittedly, haven't checked it out on the Traps FFG). The disorient graphic (along with "cold air" effects, smoke effects, gravity control effects) sticking around isn't consistent - it happens, but not every time someone is struck with a status effect. The tar patch debuff graphic was more consistent, obviously. In none of those cases were the glitched graphics on the source of the power that caused them.

NPCs who use toggles turn them on for a period of time - they shut off and come back on. You can watch a Ruin Mage do this all day, or a behemoth with invincibility, or a void hunter with his anti-energy/negative shield. I've seen elite bosses and AVs do this. FFGs leave the FF on. It doesn't behave like toggles on most NPCs.

It shouldn't be too hard to test, though - just hit the FFG with a hold, and then with a confuse. If your teammates get the buff, it still buffs. If not, it doesn't.

Anyway, I'm not attacking you. I'm disagreeing that this is definitively the case. It could be the case, but it'd need to be tested.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The graphic is still there because the power is still active. It's simply prevented from affecting anyone but the defender.

[/ QUOTE ] ...sigh....Yes Kali. I know that. The point is the graphic is not determinitve of what effect is in effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the contrary, if the power graphic is active, odds are the power is active. This is consistent throughout the game, discounting glitches.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've smacked them with Gravity Well and still seen the bubbles

[/ QUOTE ] The graphic remains....I don't think the buff does. Like a FF who uses PFF and DB together. IIRCC, the DB is still there, but it doesn't affect anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

The graphic is still there because the power is still active. It's simply prevented from affecting anyone but the defender.

The FF Generator continues to generate the graphic because it's not a toggle. If you hold a Ruin Mage, the graphic will drop.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you couldn't stack patches, just the debuffs from patches.

[/ QUOTE ] lol...right. But because of how GA is implemented, the debuff would stack. Because FA has no patch...it is not instantiated as a pet. Thus, it's debuff appears to be controllable. A self-canceling pet creates a "new" caster and thus the debuffs would stack...AFAIK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, there is exactly no way to keep the debuff from stacking, whether you dismiss the pet or not.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know this is correct. Maybe the devs could make it self-canceling, non-stackable. But Castle already said that Tar Patch cannot stack with "itself" but it can stack with another Tar Patch. I presume he meant from the same caster...as we saw back in I4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geko pointed out that it wasn't possible to keep debuffs from stacking in this manner. While - for example - Darkest Night (from one character) can never ever stack with itself - despite reapplying itself every tick, dropped and click debuffs like glue arrow and such can stack.

Whether or not the first Glue patch is banished by summoning the second, the debuffs the first applies will remain and stack with the debuffs the second applies.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The debuff sticks to its targets

[/ QUOTE ] My experience has shown me that Glue Arrow also makes a sticky patch which affects any mobs that subsequently run into it. That was the "pet" part I'm referring to...not the debuff already on those who get hit initially.

Does Glue not create a "pet" that debuffs those who enter post alpha?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but the devs can set it up to disappear if the TA makes a second patch, which is what the other poster was saying. Under that setup, you couldn't stack patches, just the debuffs from patches.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Controller pets self-cancel. That is, only one summon can exist at a time. Hence, 'balanced'.


[/ QUOTE ] The point here is that Glue Arrow would stack. Controller pets self cancel for exactly that reason..so they don't stack. There was no way to stop the stacking effect of multiple pets...which leads too...

[/ QUOTE ]

Gah. That is what they're saying. "Controller pets self cancel for exactly that reason", so why couldnt Glue Arrow self cancel for exactly that reason also? Would solve the problem of stacking and it wouldnt have such a stupidly long recharge as it has now.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can't, exactly. The debuff sticks to its targets, so if you throw another one, it will stack with the first debuff. They'd have to change how it works for dismissing the first glue patch to also remove the debuffs it inflicted.

Whether stacking them is really overpowered is a different debate.

[ QUOTE ]
Not everything needs to be against, you can also contribute or follow up on what I've said, or if you're more articulate it, word it better so that it may be of use to developers reading the thread.

Also according to Cuppa on the w00t radio interview when asked about community input affecting dev decisions, she mentioned it was more likely to occur if many people were in agreeance with a specific issue, without any real challenge to that.

I really expressed the TA situation in generalities, maybe you have specific ideas on how it could be improved as a better debuffing set. Who knows...

[/ QUOTE ]

Concern, Blueeyed, and others have gone into TA's condition in-depth, taken it to PMs to the devs, started threads in this forum and AT & Powers, and probably the Mastermind forum as well. The same issues have been iterated and reiterated over and over again. I'm not saying that there's nothing to add, but at this point, I don't really have anything to add: TA is the weakest debuff set, despite being the only set that has no buffs or heals to go with the debuffs. It takes too long to set the powers up in a fight, and it's not easy enough to use the powers together.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"There's not enough good chinese restaurants in Paragon City. It's odd considering all the cat girls running around." - Unnamed Tanker roleplaying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought everyone knew... the catgirls ARE the chinese food...

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funnier if you remember that the catgirl meme came from Japan.

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are getting kind of off-topic here. . . I'm surprised no one flamed my post, guess the OT banter is more interesting. :P

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see anything to argue against in your post.

[ QUOTE ]
lol...I never said Kinetics was weak. What I said was that Dark/Dark provides better universal defense. What I said was that other sets need more attendant circumstances to shine.

[/ QUOTE ]

To put it another way, kinetics can boost offense more than Dark ever will. In exchange, it provides less defense.

Now, whether kin's offense is actually equal to dark's defense + offense is a different matter.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I wasn't clear - you have expressed that you find TA's power level to be reasonable, which - even though you played radiation emission or dark miasma before you played TA - implies to me that you have your sights set low as a target for power level.

[/ QUOTE ] This is still not clear to me.

ED did nothting to my Kin, Rad, or Dark defenders. It did take damage out my secondary...for my Dark.

Having played all those sets after I6, the ability to dominate hasn't changed....it's just that now, I have to use more than just Fearsome Stare to to do it. Seriously...90% of the time, I use just TT, NF, and Shadow Fall. If there is a boss, I'll drop TP. If the spawn is large, I'll use my pet. TG gets fired once in a blue moon. Hell, maybe its really /Dark that's too good..lol.

One way I know dark/dark is so good....after a few spawns, the blasters start taking the alphas. They don't do that with my Kinetics...lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because kinetics' strength is almost purely offensive. It benefits ATs that can defend themselves more than ATs that cannot. It doesn't mean kinetics is weak.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've taken on a +1 Envoy at 38 with...

[/ QUOTE ] at 38....you have six more slots and your lvl 38 power. It does make a diff. I took my DM/SR along with a DM/Inv..a Kin and a Rad defender...we could not beat Envoy. He out damaged the Kin and Rad's healing (my SR was punked by the damage aura) and the Rad did not have the endo to keep up the debuffs. The AV would periodically run over to the defenders and two shot them. We had to get an Empath to take care of the healing so the defenders could focus on strict debuffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, my level 38 power was Midnight Grasp. If I had taken DA's level 38, that would've been Soul Transfer. It can make a difference, but I don't think it really was all that much of one.

[ QUOTE ]
Given the right situation, other sets can carry slack. But with DD you don't need that special situation...a la a corner Hurricane everyone into.

I see a lot of near team wipes on Invinc at levels below 35 or so...but that happens when I'm playing my non-defenders, or sometimes with my Kinetics against CoT (those debuffing bastards). The other defender sets don't seem be able to pull it off nearly as easy...if at all..IME.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played against Earth Thorns with my D3 since issue 4, but I found that I could not prevent team wipes from occurring because their stacked quicksand more than nullified my stacked to-hit debuffs.

At the same time, my Ice tanker could overcome their stacked quicksand with Energy Absorption.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also suspect your expectations are calibrated fairly low based on the fact that you seem to feel that Trick Arrow doesn't have many problems.

[/ QUOTE ] I've played all the other sets except a high level Storm and Sonic...loooooong before I played TA/A. Rad/Rad and D/D were my first two defenders.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't clear - you have expressed that you find TA's power level to be reasonable, which - even though you played radiation emission or dark miasma before you played TA - implies to me that you have your sights set low as a target for power level.

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe TG is six slotted...but I don't think it is. None of my other powers are six slotted, but i'm only 35. I probably have as many or more slots in my attacks. Before ED, I almost respec'd out of DN...I never needed it. It's got four slots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, I've found that DN might be unnecessary because most teams I'm on can obliterate the spawns within a couple of seconds after I finish the animation. I usually just drop tar patch, not because Dark is that uber, but because teams can work that fast.

[ QUOTE ]
Tonight, four of us took out a purple Envoy. A BS/Regen, a SK lvl 31 Electric blaster, and a Sk lvl 20 Ice/Storm...and my Dark/Dark. I didn't use a single inspiration...now...the Blaster did die once....I accidently dropped Shadow Fall, we got hit with BoF and my heal missed. Rezed the blaster....we killed the AV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've taken on a +1 Envoy at 38 with my 37th level DM/DA pre-stacking, a 36th level DM/DA scrapper, and a mid-30s (I do not recall the exact level or if I needed to SK him) Empathy/Electric defender. I've taken on so many AVs anywhere from even to +3 levels on teams of 2-8 players - sidekicked and exemped - generally not having a D3 along, that I don't really find this to be horribly impressive or particularly a sign of D3 being overpowered.

Heck, post-I6, I took on a +1 Envoy on a team with a Kinetic/Electric defender and a Peacebringer. The Defender died and the Peacebringer helped keep me standing (despite my inconsequential defense vs. fire and not-perma-able Hoarfrost that did not have healing enhancements) long enough for the kinetic to return. I held the Envoy's aggro and didn't drop for the time it took the kinetic to get back to the mission.

Does this mean that Peacebringer healing is overpowered? Or that my ice tanker's resists (perma-frost three-slotted for resistance, plus whatever the toggles provide) to fire + hoarfrost's hit point buff is overpowered?

[ QUOTE ]
With HT, you're saving time, and cutting back on threat for a brief time.


[/ QUOTE ] "Saving time" is one of the most important things in this game. Time...is immensely important to all of us. 8 person missions in Creys or Boomtown, or the Hollows, Eden, CoT/Council maps with prisions, can involve large, large maps. Rezing people...lots of people...right there...should not to be understated. And this is to say nothing of the dual utility of HT as a mez. Are you kidding me? Dark for teh win....by a landslide.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that it's exaggeration to call it "ridiculous" simply because it's not gimped like TA.


[/ QUOTE ] DD was "ridiculous" to me back before TA/A was even around. My feelings on D/D have nothing to do with TA/A.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dark Miasma was much stronger before there was Trick Arrow. In issue 5 and 6, it lost a large amount of the stuff it could do (like easily stack tar patch, have multiple fluffies out, use Pet Gaze to lock down two minions/lts or one boss unslotted, using Fearsome Stare to lock down two spawns at a time unslotted).

[ QUOTE ]
The other defender sets are all very good IMO. D/D and Rad/Rad just so good, they overkill. In some ways....it's good in that the sets support varoius builds. But whatever...there aren't many DD's around as far as I can see.

[/ QUOTE ]

After playing D/D to 50, I'd rather play Dark Miasma with just about any other secondary but Dark Blast. I'd rather play just about any secondary other than Dark Blast with any primary. I realize that it has control and decent debuffing, but it sacrifices damage for those things. I do not feel that the D3 builds are the strongest available to Dark Miasma at all.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh noes, you can keep a team alive! Yeah, that's a sign of a defender set working too well...if you calibrate off Trick Arrow.

[/ QUOTE ] One tank should not be able to easily hold the aggro for an 8 person team. One controller should not be able to hold all the mobs on an 8 person team. One defender should not be able to have that dramatic effect on an 8 person team.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, something's already wrong, then, because most tankers can pretty easily hold aggro from entire spawns on an eight-person team. Controllers have some trouble, but with the right secondary can certainly render an entire spawn mostly harmless.

[ QUOTE ]
I can put my pet near the melee battle, hang back with the squishies, and out heal anyone but an Empath....and who knows..maybe I can out heal an Empath.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally awesome, except when it misses. And draws aggro, or when those you intend to heal run out of your radius. This doesn't make the power weak, but it's far from an "I Win" button.

[ QUOTE ]
A defender should be able to keep a team alive on Invinc ...provided the team plays well. Hardly a necessity with Dark/Dark.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggest that it's hardly a necessity for just about any primary but FF (lacking a lot of tools for a crisis) and Trick Arrow (having too many tools that are difficult to use). I am not sure about Sonic.

I also suspect your expectations are calibrated fairly low based on the fact that you seem to feel that Trick Arrow doesn't have many problems.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe "ridiculous" is the correct adjective to use.

[/ QUOTE ] I've single handedly turned the tides on eight man missions. Sit around ...loafing...just doing a little blasting...we aggro three groups...2/3rd of the team gets wiped out...now I get seroius. Rez the entire team...Fear one group, slap DN on a boss, Tar Patch and TT a truck load....on top of Night Fall and the incoming damage drops by about 80%. It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh noes, you can keep a team alive! Yeah, that's a sign of a defender set working too well...if you calibrate off Trick Arrow.

Most of the powers in the set require slotting to be this effective. I think the only one you can really afford not to slot if you take is Howling Twilight.

If you want Darkest Night, it gets six-slotted. If you want Dark Servant, it gets six-slotted. If you want Twilight Grasp, you really should-six-slot it, whether you go for heals, debuffs, or a mix. If you get Pet Gaze or Fearsome Stare, you should 4-6 slot both. You can probably get away without too much slotting in Black Hole, although if you want it available, three recharges is probably a good plan on top of accuracy. Generally speaking, though, you need to drop a lot of slots into DM to make it work as well as it can, especially compared to sets like Radiation, which don't seem to have quite as many powers that demand quite as many slots.

The rez thing is powerful, but since people can hospital and come right back in most situations, it's not that hugely powerful. You can all turn around a team wipe by just running back to the mission, which is what usually happens. With HT, you're saving time, and cutting back on threat for a brief time.

I'm not arguing that Dark Miasma isn't powerful - it is. I think that it's exaggeration to call it "ridiculous" simply because it's not gimped like TA.