Atilla_The_Pun

Which is yet another problem. IOs were nerfed in PvP. now why do you suppose that is? Maybe one side or the other was unable to consistently get the IOs they needed to build out their characters for a reasonable amount?

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I'm not trying to hurt the market, I'm just more interested in being a super powered being battling other super powered beings. That's what brought me to this game, and that's a good part of what keeps me here, the other major part of that being the people in RO.

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Correct me if I'm mistaken... I thought you said that you do not use the markets now but you would after a merger. Why is that? If you don't like using the markets because you'd rather get down and dirty and beat the snot out of stuff that's fine. If you don't use the markets because of lack of competition or flippers or something that's just silliness.

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It's both. if the markets were more casual friendly I'd use them. I'm not interested in getting into market PvP (which is mostly what goes on there AFAICT). The first step in making them markets more casual friendly and less of a hard core mini game is to merge them. Merging them will help stabilize the market. There are additional steps that could be taken, but IMO this is the first one that SHOULD be taken.

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You don't need to play City of Day traders to get items. The markets aren't going down the drain. Your refusal to use the markets hurts you far more than it hurts the market.

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I'm not trying to hurt the market, I'm just more interested in being a super powered being battling other super powered beings. That's what brought me to this game, and that's a good part of what keeps me here, the other major part of that being the people in RO.

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I have no idea what items you, specifically, want or think are lacking on the market but most people who do complain don't actually find any of those items themselves.

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Mostly low level generic IOs for villains.

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For example if you think you should have 10 purples from the market you should find 10 purples. If you think you should have 20 low level Pool Cs you should generate 20 low level Pool Cs. Find stuff, sell it, buy what you want. If you can't afford it you don't deserve it. You can't show up to the table with nothing and walk away with something. If the devs did think everyone should have everything they wanted items would simply be free. Nothing wrong with wanting everything to be free but the devs want you to work towards goals of piles of IOs and not obtain it instantly.

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Obviously. It's supply and demand at the personal level. If I want to buy a purple I need the cash to buy a purple. The easiest way to get cash to buy a purple is to sell a purple. In the broadest terms of course.

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The market swings both ways. If you think there are huge holes in the market go out into the world and make those items and sell sell sell. If you think something is overpriced go out there and find it. Cash in.

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This was my exact argument when doomsayers were crying about the (then) new Merit system. If the Pool Cs other than the Big Three get too pricey, spend your merits on them instead of one of the Big Three.

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How is the CH broken? It's simple Supply and Demand. Seriously, Economics 101. Everything in pool C (until merits) had roughly equal supply, but unequal demand. The items in higher demand will command a higher price, because that's the way a free market works.

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It's broken because the villain side market doesn't have a large enough population to normalize supply and demand. Heroes is mostly OK, but there's no demand for many decent recipes. My current poster child is the Basilisk's Gaze set, each of the set is less than 1,000 for heroes but millions for villains. Merging them will help normalize supply and demand simply by making the market more populated.

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Efficiency is not necessarily the goal. Some people like playing the game within a game. Merging the markets severely hurts one "mini-game" in City of Heroes.

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<snicker> You said the "e" word to me. :P

And while my penchant for "efficiency" is well known in RO, I still feel that if the mini game detracts from the main game there's a problem IMO. Either IOs are for people who want to fight super powered battles, or they're just a toy for the minigame ~ a carrot to dangle before those who have no interest in spending enough time to figure the market out. I'm not interested in City of Day Traders, but I'll play it if it becomes reasonable to do so.

Until then I'll grind hundreds of millions of Merits/Tickets to get what I want and the markets can continue on down the sewer without me. People in RO can have the recipes I'm not using and if anyone wants to reciprocate they can.

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/signed

I'm tired of getting items I can use on one of my 50s as a random drop on a different 50.

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But I bet you don't complain when you want something on the CH and are able to get it right? Imagine what happens if you no longer have to sell any items on the CH, you can simply pass them off on to bag'o holding characters with ease. Some people already complain the BM is too influid.

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I don't use the CH. And won't until they merge them. My SG mates get whatever I can't use anyway.

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Whats more, what about all those times you got a drop you could use on some other character, but instead decided to sell on the market (for whatever reason). That earned you some inf you eventually used on that character right? So ultimately, even if you got a drop you couldn't use, you converted it into inf you could. There are no useless drops.

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Obviously you've never gotten a Trap of the Hunter then. I must have gotten all of yours. I might vendor them if I notice it while I'm at a shop, but usually that's an auto delete.

Oh, and just in case I didn't mention it before, I don't use the CH.

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That you choose not to use a tool does not mean the tool is broken. Indeed, if everyone were to take your position, then we would be in the theoretical worst case scenario, where it was every account for themselves. Isn't it better to know the CH is there if you wanted to use it?

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Let's reverse this. I choose not to use a broken tool because the tool I choose to use suits my purpose much better.

And if everyone (except the flippers) chose not to use the market until the stinking thing was fixed that would be excellent! Sadly, most people don't realize it's broken, or they do realize it and chose to say "Well I can't afford to buy into that at any level w/o excessive amounts of time or using RMT vermin. I guess IOs are just not for me."

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The real problem here is not that the markets NEED to be merged, but that more people need to play villains. Wouldn't it make more sense to make villains more enticing to play? The market merger is a one sided WANT from people that play villains and feel they are being cheated because heroes get more stuff to pick from.

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No, I rarely play Villains. I just want a larger population on the market, It will stabilize prices, improve supply, and generally improve the whole IO situation for everyone but the flippers.

Where's the downside?

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Since you are aware that it has been suggested many times before, then you are obviously aware of the many reasons NOT to do it.

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I am completely unaware of ANY reason not to do this.

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It's your own fault for not searching and reading the previous threads on this topic. It has been explained many times in the past. Do your homework.

/unsigned for all the reasons posted in past threads.

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So, to recap, we have 3 RL economists weighing in in favor of a merger, at least one of whom has more Inf than one character can hold strictly from playing the market. We have a bunch of laymen naysaying the idea but they are unable to come up with a cogent reason WHY a merger would be bad.

If there are any more of "those reasons posted in past threads" now would be the time to trot them out. Because I'm STILL unaware of ANY reason not to merge the markets. I still believe that it is long overdue.

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/signed

I'm tired of getting items I can use on one of my 50s as a random drop on a different 50.

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But I bet you don't complain when you want something on the CH and are able to get it right? Imagine what happens if you no longer have to sell any items on the CH, you can simply pass them off on to bag'o holding characters with ease. Some people already complain the BM is too influid.

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I don't use the CH. And won't until they merge them. My SG mates get whatever I can't use anyway.

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Whats more, what about all those times you got a drop you could use on some other character, but instead decided to sell on the market (for whatever reason). That earned you some inf you eventually used on that character right? So ultimately, even if you got a drop you couldn't use, you converted it into inf you could. There are no useless drops.

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Obviously you've never gotten a Trap of the Hunter then. I must have gotten all of yours. I might vendor them if I notice it while I'm at a shop, but usually that's an auto delete.

Oh, and just in case I didn't mention it before, I don't use the CH.

/signed

I'm tired of getting items I can use on one of my 50s as a random drop on a different 50.

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until red side can equal blue side buying/selling power, there is no way i can support a market merger. and seeing as how red side will never equal blue side, then no merger will ever happen.

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Aside from the fact that Villain flippers make FAR more profit than hero ones do, let's examine your presupposition.

Every time villains sell something in a merged market (assuming a hero wins the bid) Inf will be transferred from heroes to villains. This means that even IF there is more Inf on the hero side (a supposition I do not necessarily support) it will come to an equilibrium.

Then there is the matter of items such as Basilisk's Gaze set. They sell for 1k Inf for heroes, effectively vendor trash. They sell in the MILLIONS for villains. The price will come down simply because the supply goes up without the demand also going up. Pet Recipes are another item like this.

The Markets are dying. Well maybe not the hero market, but the villain market doesn't have the population to sustain it. AE Tickets will deliver the coup de grace. The best way to make sure there will continue to BE a villain market is to merge it with the hero one.

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I'm not sure if merging the markets would sove the fundamental problems of the markets to begin with, the biggest is getting more people using the markets to begin with.

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I agree that the biggest problem is to get more people using the market. And increasing the hero market by 50% population (and the villain market by 200%) does exactly that. Because that is what merging the markets would do.

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The devs have gone to great lengths to add code to artificially separate the sides. The most recent example of this is the one that prevents you from setting a mission unless all team members are in the same zone. This was done to prevent hero players from playing villian content in coop zones and vice-versa.

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Thankfully, this is not true - what you are talking here is a nasty bug, not a feature. It is a real pain in the [censored] bug too.


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It is indeed true. I did not say it wasn't a bug. The separation code is indeed meant as a feature (exploit fix). The inability to set a mission without everyone in the zone is the bug. It's also a bug that may not be able to be coded back out if they can't figure out how to leave the exploit fix in without it and it may not be easy to do in any case.

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My understanding is that this "feature" is to prevent setting (for example) a villain mission outside a co-op zone while on a mixed team (i.e. inside a co-op zone) and then using the Mission Teleporter to get the whole team to the mission. And obviously, vice-versa.

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I'm one of the laziest marketeers you will ever meet. I know what salvage vendors for, I typically put it on market at that price +10% without even bothering to check the current market. I check market prices for recipes before I vendor them, but most times it's simply a formality -- the market price on a recipe I'm likely to find is a tiny fraction of its vendor price, meaning nobody else wanted this recipe any more than I did. I do this redside. I do this blueside. What invariably happens is that redside, I arrive at lvl 22 looking to upgrade to SOs with 400k to spend, and blueside I arrive at level 22 with two million to spend. Trying to slot SO enhancements and beyond redside reminds me of blueside before they introduced the market. I'm trying to slog it out, figuring if I can push one cash cow through redside it'll make all my other villains easier, but frankly I don't care that much about playing villains. I'd rather play a hero, AND the game is more fun.

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In short, the villain market sucks rotten eggs.

So merge them already.

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He's sat through a market merge before? Really?

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Just as many as you have, Bill. However, not only does he have the theory craft down, he's got more inf than one character can hold to back it up ~ and everyone knows how it got it.

As far as the market goes, Smurphy is my EF Hutton. When he talks, I listen.

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So greatly adding to demand and marginally adding to supply causes prices to drop...

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If you read the rest of the thread, paying particular attention to Smurphy's posts you can get the information needed to understand what he's saying.

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This idea has been suggested many times before, and it's a good idea. It solves the biggest problems with the market and it is LONG overdue.

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Well,
You know what they say about repeatedly doing the same thing over and over,
and yet expecting a different result. . .

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"They" didn't say it, Einstein said it.

And NC Soft has proved often enough that they are willing to listen to their customers, so if this is kept on the radar NC Soft might implement it.

Or not from Smurphy's Ex Libris quote. Doesn't matter to me, the market doesn't exist for me since Merits came out. I'd love to change that, but until they merge it's not happening.

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*looks at the steady rate luck charms and other salvage have gone up.*

Yeah. OK, you keep playing with your formulas, then. Have fun. I'll actually watch what people (who aren't in Cells F11-G25) do.

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Are you actually implying that Smurphy doesn't have any experience in the CoX market? Bill? Really?

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And before anyone throws supply and demand at me - when there's a 2:1 ratio of supply TO demand, in theory, prices should drop, correct? Too much supply for the demand.

With (heroside) 6500+ people bidding on 700 (roughly) Alchemical Silvers, I understand them going for 50k (last five sales.) or 3000 people bidding on 75 Ancient Artifacts - yes, that's going to be somewhat spendy, too. Or the infamous luck charm, 7000 some bidding, 1300 for sale - pricy.

Ancient Bone. 680 bidding, 1689 for sale. 6-15k *each.* Better than 2:1 supply to demand. Shouldn't that be down near vendor level? Same with circuit boards (same ratio and 5-11k price range.)

Brass doesn't even follow the "Low supply equals overly high price." 1200 bidding, just over 200 for sale. Nearly 6:1, and it's "only" 500-1000, with a 5000 at the bottom there.

You REALLY think prices would deflate?

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The problem here is flippers, Bill. They artificially increase the demand and artificially inflate prices, driving real customers from the market. Having a larger population in the market reduces the impact that flippers can have on the market. If there's so much supply that the flippers can NOT buy up all the low priced items they want to flip they'll have to get used to lower profits.

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Adding more demand without adding proportionately more supply won't make anything better...

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How can adding the other half of the game add more demand WITHOUT adding more supply? You obviously haven't thought this through. Read my previous posts in this thread where I address your issue.

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until supply(drop rates) are increased, this is not a feasable thing. it is already hard enough to get what you want on either side and if you paid attentoin to what is available on both sides you would see that they are pretty much a mirror of each other. and with red side having the lower population, it would become even more unreasonable to get anything red side.

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One of the major issues is availability of recipes for villains. Even recipes that should be readily available are not because demand exceeds supply. And I'm not talking about just pet recipes.

On the other side of that same coin, there are way too many recipes heroside that are just vendor trash. Ironically some of those recipes (e.g. Gaze of the Basilisk) are worth millions to villains.

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maybe to make it a little easier for you to understand: both sides are independant from each other. just as your toons are independant from one another. the blue side doesnt need the red side to help with missions(unless its the stupid v-day event) and vise versa. not to mention that things cannot be traded between the factions.

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In citing the separation between heroes and villians as being the reason to keep the markets separate you are putting the cart before the horse. The reason you can't give an awaken to your fallen teammate from the opposite faction is because the markets aren't merged, not the other way around.

However, it may help YOUR understanding to realize that City of Heroes and City of Villains are, per an official NC Soft news release, one game.

So make them one game already.

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there are enough why not reasons. because they dont fit your need as a reason why not, they do fit others.

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Thanks for the ad hominem, but you're wrong. I don't currently use the markets much, I barter with people outside it for what I need, or save merits, or occasionally sell off my excess.

Frankly, until the markets are merged they don't exist to me. I can earn merits and have fun doing so, then purchase what I need.

Part of the reason for the current dearth of some recipes on the market is low usage. If the markets were merged more people would use them, which would increase supply, which would mean that more people would use them. It's a numbers game plain and simple. The more people in the market the more chance there is to get the items you want on the market. Merging the markets is the simplest way to get more people into one market.

And really people, endlessly going "You should know why this is a bad idea already" is an invalid argument. Bring out your best, I'll tear them down again because there isn't a SINGLE valid reason NOT to merge the markets.

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Since you are aware that it has been suggested many times before, then you are obviously aware of the many reasons NOT to do it.

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I am completely unaware of ANY reason not to do this.

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It's your own fault for not searching and reading the previous threads on this topic. It has been explained many times in the past. Do your homework.

/unsigned for all the reasons posted in past threads.

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Let me rephrase this then. I have read and posted in most of the threads in question. As you should well know if you have read any of them. I have yet to hear a valid reason beyond "I can't make as much profit flipping".

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Since you are aware that it has been suggested many times before, then you are obviously aware of the many reasons NOT to do it.

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I am completely unaware of ANY reason not to do this.

This idea has been suggested many times before, and it's a good idea. It solves the biggest problems with the market and it is LONG overdue.

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Great guide! Do the menu options accept commands that aren't emotes or speech, e.g. pow_exec_name?

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I believe it will, but I haven't tested it personally yet.