Atheism

You never said capped def/res, only DP, Frostwork, IOs, and accolades. Even with those, Brutes will never match the survivability of a Tank.

Assuming we do have defense and resistance buffs, Brutes can match the survivability of the Tank and that's it. I don't count the 850% damage cap because I think it's almost useless on a team. If a Brute is at that cap, then other teammates will be at theirs as well killing mobs just as fast.

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They have the same Hit point cap, brutes just have a lower starting point, so getting to 3212 hit points is more than a 170% increase.

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So with enough IOs, accolades, Dull Pain, and Frostwork...

Brute <<<<<< Tank defensively.

Tank < Brute Offensively.

Brute does not have Gauntlet.

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Fix't for accuracy.

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What are you guys talking about?

Tanker all the way.

Brutes can't tank at all and Tanker damage is freaking amazing.

Just ask anyone on the Tanker forum, they'll tell you the same.



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I'm glad you're thinking outside of the box now JB.

Within the last several days I've done the LGTF twice now and I found something very odd with Hero 1.

When I was doing the LGTF a few days earlier while playing my Fire Blaster, when Hero 1 hit Unstoppable, he seemed to be close to near invunerable, literally. I noticed that he wasn't taking any damage at all, and when I mean no damage at all I mean there wasn't any numbers above his head at all. This probably went on for at most a minute and managed to even get back most of his health.

I don't have a screenshot of this and I probably should have taken one, but has anyone else run into this problem or has Hero 1 always been like this?

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the powers you select is my business.

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Wrong. So wrong I don't even know how to put it in words other than you're wrong. How the person constributes to the team is your business. How the person builds their toon shouldn't be.

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Say you were on a high level team with a tank that didn't take his status protection power. The tank continued to be mezzed over and over and over again, continuously being killed, making it much more difficult for the team to survive because of the lack of aggro management. Would you still say that the tanks choice to not pick up his status protection still isn't your business?

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It still isn't. If any Tank doesn't want to take their mez protection, that's fine. If he's contributing to the team well, then I won't kick him. If the Tank is not contributing to the team, by perhaps dying or doing nothing, then I would kick them.

Let's pretend though that how people build their toons is my business. Mez protection is vital. It stops you from being mezzed which could easily mean someone's death. SB on the other hand isn't vital. You won't die if you don't have it. So you decide which is more important, mez protection or SB?

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Actually it can. Glue Arrow alone stops a lot of incoming damage.

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Ok, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you, but now we're promoting science fiction. Glue Arrow is an AoE slow that provides -20% recharge. This is the same amount of -Recharge as, for example, an Ice Controller's Frostbite. It's not useless, but it is not going to fill the void for a low level team that is taking lots of collateral damage and would like for their as-yet unshielded Scrappers to stop dying.

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If the team isn't attacking the slowed mobs, then ya, they will die.

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Unless something is done to tankers to make them unique and give more to a team and to solo play Going Rogue will be the death of tankers imo.

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No it won't. When GR comes out and even though I rarely invite players, I would still invite a Tank over a Brute because Tanks are good at not dying. Something I can't say about Brutes.

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Whereas I am gonna guess that a stone/stone *tank* might well hold them all at once. There's still a fundamental anything-you-can-tank-I-can-tank-better truth to the Tanker archetype that Brutes nor Scrappers can touch.

Blueside, it'll be Brutes and Scrappers that are the interchangeable parts for most teams, not Brutes and Tanks, at least no more or less than they see Scrappers and Tanks and interchangeable.

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Snip

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You're right about one thing. You won't see much gap between a Tank and Brute using Granite through the s/l resists. But what about the exotic resists? Tanks (I think) have about 20% higher in exotic resists than Brutes do which makes them more easily survivable.

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So roughly 500 hp 10% defense and 8 hp more makes you think you can handle all of the freedom phalanx. *edit* forgot the 20% exotic damage resitance.


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500 hp gap, more defense, better exotic resistance. Ya, I could easily survive better than a Brute could against the FP.

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Oh one more thing. Brutes can choose Darkest Night from their epics. That adds a 16.6% to hit debuff and a damage debuff of 21% that not only helps you hold and survive agro it also helps your team survive any that might get away from you.

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I can't argue against this one. Tanks really don't have great epics except for Fire Mastery.

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Now take into consideration Io's. Your Tank is allready near the caps so not much room for improvement. A brute however can push his surviveabilty levels VERY close to what yours are with a bit of investment while still having darkest night. Imo the brute is now just as surviable if not more so and puts out far more damage. Io's can never buff a tanks damage to a brutes level but a brute can buff its surviveability to tanker levels with Io's.

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And I find this the most amusing out of this entire post. My Tank has no room for improvement? Where did you pull this information from? Tanks can easily improve themselves with IOs to the point they don't even need buffs, backup from other players, or inspirations. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't even need their tier 9, which I couldn't say for Brutes.

But, instead of using Granite, let's use a different powerset. Let's say WP because my only Invul is at 28. Without SOs, a Brute would eat dirt pretty fast while the Tank would still stand. Now once we get into IOs, said Tank can pretty much never be killed again.

With IOs, a WP Tank can hit the hp cap, increase their defense to the point they won't even need their tier 9.

With IOs, a WP Brute can not cap their hp, can increase their defense. Yup, Brutes can surely be as survivable as a Tank with IOs, lol!


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So no. I do not think your stone armor tank could hold the entire freedom phalanx.

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Since I've done it with my Stone Brute before, I'm pretty damn sure I could do it with my Tank quite easily since I'm more survivable.

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But I mainly wanted to talk about debuffs, which are already way better than heals even on lolsewer teams.

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Since everyone knows a Defender armed with Flash Arrow, Glue Arrow, Ice Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow and a single target blast is going to make the team completely survivable. Nevermind that, at the time the sewers are initially entered, said Defender probably only has Flash and Glue. (I'm giving the best case scenario here and skipping Entangling Arrow altogether).

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Actually it can. Glue Arrow alone stops a lot of incoming damage.

Once you use Fulcrum Shift a second time, it's not as good?

I'm going to say this and this only. The nerf to EM has made the set nearly unplayable. The only time I use my Stone/EM Tank is when my friends decide to do the STF. It used to be the best in single target damage, now it's just meh. Not only that but six seconds to use just two powers? That's a little over the top for me.

I'm pretty sure other people don't mind the ugly animation of ET, but I do.

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the powers you select is my business.

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Wrong. So wrong I don't even know how to put it in words other than you're wrong. How the person constributes to the team is your business. How the person builds their toon shouldn't be.

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Let's turn things on their side so to speak... Let's say the Kin can't be bothered to take or use Fulcrum Shift instead of SB. Would you say that he was still contributing as much as one who did? How about the Empath who skips Fortitude, would you say they were providing the same benefit as one who didn't?

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As long as the said Empath who doesn't have Fort or the Kin who skipped FS are contributing to the team and help killing the mobs, I don't care what powers they pick.

And players without SB can still kill things, and a Kin who doesn't SB can still constribute to the team.

It's almost like saying a Tank who doesn't pick up Taunt is bad.

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The level of ignorance the "I won't SB!" folks are bringing to this thread is astounding.

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lol. That's funny. Just like how a player who doesn't use SB also happens to be a bad Kin.

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it never makes sense when a player declines a famous buff.

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Because not everyone has a super fancy computer. I know that may sound crazy, but it's true.

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Fact: there is no such thing as a "healer" in this game (other than Cimerora Surgeon critters). No specific AT, not even a specific powerset, is dedicated to healing. Even Empathy, the
powerset most likely to be used by someone attempting to create a "healer", has heals or +Regen buffs in fewer than half of its powers.


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False. See below.

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False. No set in a Defender primary is dedicated to healing as Luminara(sp?) said.

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Fact: the game was designed to avoid the need for "healers". Not only is there a greater emphasis on proactive buffs and debuffs than in similar games, but all players are also given access to healing powers via the Medicine pool, temporary powers, pets and inspirations. All players, not one or two specific ATs or powersets, can heal both themselves and their teammates if they wish.

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And that is one of my points I was trying to make. All players have the option of investing in Medicine power pool and being a Healer, should they so choose.

If there were no such thing as healers in the game, then the Medicine pool wouldn't exist. Neither would the Empath, Thermal, or Pain Domination sets. So this "fact" is a direct contradiction to the previous "fact."

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False, even if there were no 'healers', the medicine pool would still exist.

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Fact: with the specific exception of healing badges, none of the content in this game was designed to require heals to be completed. Every task/strike force and trial in the game can be completed by a team of competent players without a single one of them being capable of healing.

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I won't argue that the original City of Heroes was deliberately designed in such a way as to make healers unnecessary. Frankly I was there back in I1 and reading the developers talk about it. The real issue is, the design in this case just isn't perfect, possibly deliberately. Are healing inspirations building up in your inventory to be converted to other inspirations or simply used to make room for more of other types? Did you and your supergroup skip the Health power from the Fitness pool (which almost everyone takes on their way to Stamina). Did you forget about the Rest power that everyone has starting at level 2? These are all, technically, healing powers.

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You're wrong. Powers that regenerate your health are far from healing powers. For them to be considered healing powers, green numbers would have to appear, which they don't.

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Tell me that you can clear a task force without your team taking a single point of damage and I'll laugh in your face. Even if you honestly think you've done it.

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Maybe it's not a single point of damage, but close to none is what I would call because when I completed the MoSTF with, there wasn't one situation where someone was close to dead. And this was all thanks to a FF Defender.

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But this really gets back to the original topic. Exactly what is supposed to be the definition of "healer?" How can we avoid misusing it if people can't agree on what it means.

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I'm pretty sure healing means restoring someone's health through the use of green numbers.

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Fact: proactive damage mitigation is superior to reactive damage mitigation in this game, in every conceivable way. Healing is reactive mitigation, and as such, it costs more endurance in the long run, requires more effort and places the players at greater risk of defeat.

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Uh, you're preaching to the choir here. Damage mitigation is superior to recovery. As I tried to say before, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

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Nope, casting Fortitude on several players is better than casting Heal Other on them twenty times.

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Fact: in the few rare situations where players became reliant on healing in order to progress through content, the developers changed that content to alleviate the emphasis on healing. Note the changes to Hamidon raids and the addition of "heal decay" in PvP for examples.

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Good for them. They're correcting balance issues that made healers overpowered.

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lol.

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Fact: healing is not an important "role" for or function of defenders, controllers, corruptors, masterminds or any other AT, or any AT with access to any powerset with one or more heal powers. Healing is just one potential source of damage mitigation out of many.


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False. And that is one of the conflicts that really irks me. I would expect that Empaths, Pain Domination users, and Thermal users would start getting huge rebalancing boosts, or the rest of the damage mitigation sets getting huge nerfs if this ever did become "fact." That's not even considering that the last sentence of this "fact" is a direct contradiction to the first.

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How are healing powers better than buffs and debuffs?

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Heals are tools, and yes, they're versatile, but they aren't the only tools, or the best ones in the toolbox.


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Which is, ironically, a huge contradiction to your last "fact," and a rephrased version of what I have been saying. Heals are tools, yes. They aren't the only tools or even always the best ones in the toolbox. But they're really versatile.

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It wasn't a contradiction at all. Both of his or her statements were an agreement to each other saying that healing powers are versatile or have mitigation (I call BS on the mitigation though).

And I highly disagree that healing powers are really versatile. While you could be healing someone, you could also be casting Fortitude or hitting them up with AB + RA.

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Sure if the tank or controller can get control again, the squishie can get to safety and rest up. But healing is still an incredibly convenient band-aid to get the teammate back in the battle quickly and safely as long as the damage mitigation is still there. "As long as the damage mitigation is still there" being a key phrase here. With healing alone, the "healer" ends up forced to rely on Revive, Resuscitate, Mutation, etc. etc. to pick instantly defeated teammates off the floor. But as long as the damage mitigation is there (and that's worth repeating), healing can bring someone back from the edge who got unlucky before they get two-shotted by a run of bad luck. The only real way to replace that kind of convenience is to have multiple defenders buffing both the defense and resistance of everyone involved so you have both the 91% defense mitigation and the 75% resistance mitigation (and possibly even a 50% slow-based damaged mitigation on top of that). I just don't see that happening outside a dedicated super-group or the old "City of Defenders" that existed before the rebalancing act they pulled years ago to correct that. (That was some fun times on the forum. )

Yes, healing is still important. I am still not convinced to drop Radiant Aura from my character build.

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You're correct on one thing, healing is only good to bring someone to close to full health if they're death. That's is something buffs can't do, however, buffs are there so the player's health doesn't drop that low. All healing pretty much is either a waste or delays the inevitable. I also wouldn't be surprised if a person was doing nothing but healing they would have to use a rez power.

Also, any powerset can easily replace another even if the set has a healing power. The most obvious is FF or Cold Domination. Cold Dom is a beast of a set and FF just makes sure you don't have a pop another green again.


I agree with you about not dropping Radiant Aura for one reason only. I would only use it to make either myself or someone else to bring them out of the red. Other than that, I wouldn't use it at all.

I thought it was using yo' momma jokes because eventually it would stop attacking and start using its own insults.

Edit: I really need to learn to stop repeating nouns in my sentences.

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a Kin who can't be bothered to keep SB up most of the time is playing well below his potential and should probably be playing a different powerset.

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lol

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MMORPG /= comic book. When will you get this?


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Two other comic book MMOs look like they're going to be doing those heroes more justice than here. Super heroes aren't rodeo clowns. That's what they get it seems.

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Then stop playing this game. Seriously, why are still here?


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Why would I want to invite a squishy Brute unless it's Granite? So I can see them faceplant constantly?


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Why don't you go over to the brute forums and tell them how squishy and weak they are.

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Compared to Tanks, they are squishy. What Brutes would have trouble with, Tanks just wipe it off their shoulder.

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I would easily prefer...


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I really don't care what you prefer.

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Since you responded to that part, I think you do.

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Funny thing is...

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Funny thing is the people who made this game admitted Tankers as implimented were a mistake and it seems newer super hero MMOs have learned from that mistake and are trying not to repeat it. So you defending that mistake at this point and working against fixing it is the funny joke around here.

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Way to cherry pick in the favor of your mediocre argument. Hell, that last bit wasn't even talking about if Tanks were a mistake in this game or not. It was about Brutes and Scrappers needing IOs to come even close to the survivability of a Tank.

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Chaos, it wouldn't look bad for any Kins.

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What wouldn't look bad?

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Why? Well I'll ask you this. Do you need or want SB?

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I do fine without SB. And if I'm not getting it, I don't ask for it more than once. After that I'll just snap to the fact that I'm teamed with a poor kineticist, and play without SB.

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So if a player is contributing to the team without using SB, they're just a poor Kin? That's funny.

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Sure, kineticists bring more than just SB to the table-- in fact, I expect them to do a whole lot more than just SB. But if they don't SB, then a different buffer/debuffer (even a different kin) would very likely bring more to the table.

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So if a Kin is contributing to the team, but not SBing, you would still prefer a different one? That's even more funny.

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Like I said before, in my post on pg.2 of this ridiculous debate, my first 50 was a grav/kin, and at first it really bugged me that people constantly pestered me for SB. And I was defensive about it. And I told people that if they bothered me, I'd never SB them. And I explained all the things I was doing instead of just SBing them, and how important those things were.

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Oh?

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Watching buff icons isn't hard. They're color-coded. The emerald green one that matches the color of half the buttons in my tray, the one with the big ">" on it, is Speed Boost. I can tell at a casual glance whether someone has it or not, when it's flashing, and when the buffs need to be refreshed. And I refresh them, without being asked. And therefore, nobody ever bothers me about it. If they don't have it, they know they'll get it shortly if they just stay on task. They know this because I give them no reason to doubt it.

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Not playing with SB isn't hard either.

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I still do crowd control, kill bad guys, throw Fulcrum Shift, and heal the melee fighters when they're hurt. But I know that SBing teammates is a high-priority task, and I'm not slack about getting it done.

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The way I perceived this is that out of all the things a Kin can do, SBing everyone else is the most important task ever. It must be done.

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And the ones who think that they're so badass that they needn't bother SB'ing teammates? Aside from being arrogant, they're wrong.

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With Transference, FS, and all of the other goodies, you'll be killing mobs so fast that SB wouldn't be needed at all.

Kins that don't think players need SB aren't arrogant or wrong, they just don't need it.

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J_B's biggest complaint is that

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...the devs decided to represent the heavy hitting, tough heroes from comics as mediocre damage decoys and distractions.

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MMORPG /= comic book. When will you get this? Apparently, never.

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My second complaint being they admitted four years it was a mistake that should be fixed and still won't do anything about it. In fact they have routinely done things to make it worse, like side switching.

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Why would I want to invite a squishy Brute unless it's Granite? So I can see them faceplant constantly?

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The third complaint is now we're going to have Brutes running around blue side to make Tanker offense look even worse in comparison.
Way to shaft Tankers, devs...again.

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Even when Brutes are brought to blue-side, I would easily prefer a Tank over one because they're good at doing several things. One of them happens to be not dying.

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And lastly, Brutes are hardly a substiitude for thoese tough, heavy hitting heroes I refer to since those heroes are most often NOT ruled by berzerker fury and rampages. Brutes are not heroic, even if you mash them into blue side.

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I've never found the Brute's damage cap to be any that good unless it's an AV fight because pretty much at that point everyone is close or is at the damage cap obliterating mobs just as fast as a Brute is.

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Maybe in the expansion the devs can add some more temp powers and IO sets to give Brutes and Scrappers even more free increased damage mitigation without cutting into their offense. That'd be just awesome for Tankers.



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Funny thing is, Brutes and Scrappers need IOs to achieve the survivability as a Tank. Which says something about them, no?

Chaos, it wouldn't look bad for any Kins. Why? Well I'll ask you this. Do you need or want SB?

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Why play a kin if you don't wanna SB people?

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To have fun?

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It's fun to play a support class and not support?

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Hell, just from this comment alone, I feel like rolling a Kin, taking SB and not use it once. I would be using all of the other powers though.