Arcanaville

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Moonbase = generic tech maps with new flavor text. :P

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Also, zone-wide buff grants inertial reduction, falls occur at 1/6th the speed, fighting in areas of vacuum has a high -end debuff, and knockback is increased by a factor of ten.

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Arcanaville has hinted at the Moon or Rikti Home World zone(s) coming soon. It's in the "Issue 12 with a whisper..." thread.

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I did?

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that we knew they were going to up the cap from 40 to 50 very early on. I kinda recall hearing about that back before I-1.

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Technically, I don't think the level cap was ever "raised." Levels 40-50 always existed "on paper" but just weren't finished in time for release. The intention was always for the game to have 50 levels, as I understand it. In fact, I'm pretty certain everyone knew that the very first expansion was going to be levels 40-50 for precisely that reason: it was always intended to be part of the game.

However, the design of the ultrarares suggests that they are operating on the assumption that level 50 is and will always be the "top of the game."

Anything is possible, but I think there isn't even a hint of work or thought going into a level 51.

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but if you put the statistics on the power selection screen, it's inevitable that every /Dark will take Gloom over Dark Blast just because 'it does more damage', and so on.

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Ah, but what if, say, the screen says that Gloom does more damage, but dark blast has a higher DPA rating. Then what?

Before you answer, I can write a textbook that answers "then what?" My point is that players will choose based on which feature is more important. With or without the numbers, isn't that what we want people to be able to do? Pick which one hits harder, or which one hits "more concentrated?" Aren't those valid conceptual choices, completely separate from the numbers?

The numbers are just the language that best describes what the powers do. Not all concept choices are based on what hand motions you make when using the attack, or what color the projectiles are. Some are based on qualitative but measurable criteria. How many people know that shadow maul does a lot more damage per endurance point than the average attack? If they did, would that improve the image of the power? Isn't that a good thing? Some people won't take it because its slow. Some will take it because slow or not, its far cheaper to run. That is the sort of numbers-attention we *want* to have.

It *will* be misused. I can guarantee it, and its something I've been cautioning people about for as long as this subject has been discussed. But I've also said that in spite of that fact, I'm still in favor of releasing the information, just doing so in the right way. The right way makes it look like the information is offering choices. The wrong way makes it look like the information is dictating the "right" choice. You just have to pick the right way.

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Getting this Real Numbers thingy is great for the players that wish to use it. But I hope it's not going to be used to tell me a character I created is "crippled."

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Unfortunately, I can promise you it will be used that way. You'll have to console yourself with the knowledge that people don't really need solid numbers to do that now. The numbers will just be cover for shmucks to do what they always do with or without cover, which is to be shmucks.

The numbers will help many players all by themselves make better decisions about what to take or not take. It will also cause many people to incorrectly judge the numbers, and make bad decisions based on numerical fallacies. But it probably won't be any worse than now, where many people are picking powers based on the fact they say that they do "extreme damage" and assume that must be the best power because of that.

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I think you are one of the few that actually likes soul transfer.

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I love soul transfer. If you absolutely need to change it for the people that don't like soul transfer, allow it to be castable while you are still alive. Probably won't find many people who would argue too much with that.

[/ QUOTE ]I'd rather have something useful, you know, like Eclipse, as a tier 9, not a res that barely let's me retoggle if and when I ever need it (like rarely to begin with).

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I'd rather not have a useful power removed because some people can't figure out how to use it.

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I think you are one of the few that actually likes soul transfer.

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I love soul transfer. If you absolutely need to change it for the people that don't like soul transfer, allow it to be castable while you are still alive. Probably won't find many people who would argue too much with that.

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Yeah I missed the 'in real time', I think ym briain is addled today.

EG:
Sorry the win goes on. Did you not get the memo that suckage is no longer part of CoX ?

(aside from MOG) *ducks and runs*

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MoG continuing to suck is the only thing that grounds me in reality.

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You might want to avoid the Training Room in the near future, then.

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I figured once the SoW change went in, it was only a matter of time.

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What I'm concerned about would be that you don't know Focused Fighting does +1.85mod or +13.875% melee defense until they've already purchased the power

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One of my goals is to make certain that doesn't happen, and I am reasonably certain that it won't, at least eventually when all is said and done with the numbers changes.

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I haven't read the whole thread but I'll follow the fan-boi bandwagon and say this announcement sounds very, very good. And I hope "Real Numbers" means that we are actually going to see the base values of powers so we can actually make informed decisions about our gameplay (I do not like that Lighthouse has put real in quotation marks--the implication is that it won't be the actual base values but perhaps AT modifiers or some such lameness).

If it is the base numbers, I give a great deal of (complete) credit of that revelation to the wonderful members of this game community (freaks) who have spent a lot of their time in working out the numbers and making them available to their fellow players and also those who have been asking for it (lined up with pitch forks and torches).


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I'm guessing Lighthouse put "real" in quotes because a) there aren't any such thing as "fake" numbers, and b) when people ask for the "real" numbers, they don't really understand fully what they are asking for.

For example, you mention "base numbers." I don't think you don't really want the base numbers. The base number for Focused Fighting is 1.85. I think when you say "base numbers" you mean you want to know that Focused Fighting offers 13.875 percentage points of defense when unenhanced. But the "13.875" appears nowhere in the game, on Castle's spreadsheets, or anywhere else except on City of Data and other derived sources.

The devs are going to show you what you probably want to know, which is the bottom line human-readable numbers. They won't be the "real" numbers, they will be the translated ones (translated into people-numbers, not game-design numbers). Giving us the "real" real numbers would just confuse the heck out of 99.9% of the player population.


Have patience: I think what you want is what's eventually coming. Probably not all in one giant patch, but eventually.

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Im sry im being a little slow can somone please explain the smoothing out the level curve to me?

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What the devs mean is that they believe that the players are having a more difficult time levelling at some security levels than others, whether that is because the critters are harder than they thought, its harder to find teams, players are running out of missions, the amount of XP necessary is a little too high whatever. Point is, its taking longer for the average player to get from 31 to 32 than from 21 to 22 (just for example, making up some numbers). So they are going to try to change that by adjusting the XP you get at those levels, so that its not that much harder to level at those levels than other levels.

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Detention Field
1) The affected character can still be targeted and attacked even though the captured target cannot be harmed.
2) The immobilization of the captured target can be resisted (the target can move while captured).
3) The captured target can target others in order to queue up attacks that will activate the moment the capture timer expires. The queued attacks can not be matched in timing by other characters.

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I have often wondered if detention field should really be altered into a "reverse PFF." I.e. the target is surrounded in a high defense, high resistance bubble, where they can't attack. For some reason, I've always found the symmetry to be attractive. However, that might be problematic in PvP, since it would effectively be an unresistable hold no one has mez protection against.

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(On the subject of Real Numbers, accuracy of: I betcha they're simply exposing the numbers they are using, rather than adding a system to figure them out for you. My guess is any number you see will be what you're getting.)

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That would be a good bet. Of course, that's only half the story. If they just did that, you'd see "Focused Fighting: 1.85" which wouldn't make sense to anyone except those who already know and understand what the numbers mean. A lot of work has to go into the game client saying "Focused Fighting: [thinking ... 1.85 x scrappermod 0.075 + percent sign] 13.875% defense to melee" for every number in the game.

What we're going to be seeing is the translated version of the numbers that the game uses. Translated into people-speak, from gameengine-speak. What will improve matters greatly from, lets say the Prima Guides, is that there will not be a human editor making interpretation mistakes since the translation from gameengine to human readable text will be fixed in the game code, and converted on the fly to be appropriate for the character being viewed.

One thing players will have to learn is that what they see isn't what everyone else sees. A scrapper who sees "1.875% defense" in combat jump that tells his tanker friend that combat jump is 1.875% defense will be wrong for a tanker. For that matter, I'm pretty certain the devs (pohsyb) will incorporate level-scaling, so things like mez protection and movement powers that scale with level will be giving their security-level appropriate values for the character - meaning what you see at level 15 won't be what you see at level 35.

Basically, because of the complexity of the system, players will have to get used to the fact that what they see is really only guaranteed accurate for them, when on that character, at that level. Unless you understand the system, you will still not fully understand how to translate what you see on your blaster for what you would see if you rolled a scrapper. You'd have to roll a scrapper and see (or break out the pocket calculator and learn the scaling formulas).

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Doesn't this imply an overhaul of the enhancement system? Or will this be separate?

Meaning if I'm about to slot an enhancement, will I see current value and future value on mouseover with an enhancement?

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I don't want to talk too much out of turn, so I will just say that its obvious that the real-time display Lighthouse refers to has to be something that is viewable within the normal game display, or else it would be worthless as a real-time display showing things like combat buffs. So by definition, its totally separate from how they would alter the enhancement/respecification screens, which shows powers and slotting in a completely different view.

I'm speculating here, but there's no need for a massive overhaul of the enhancement screen, since it already has tooltip help that shows enhancement percentage numbers. Theoretically speaking, those could be changed to "true" numbers instead, without radical alterations of the mechanics of that interface.

I think its also worth noting that by my mental count, there are at least six different places that "numbers" could affect the user interface if the devs wanted to so design, so we should presume that "numbers" are going to be phased into the game client over time, and not all in one big patch. The fact that Lighthouse has already seen and mentioned the real time buff doohicky suggests that that feature might be one of the earlier numbers-things we'll see over the next few months.

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Speaking of numbers... just out of curiosity, is anyone as NCSoft (or perhaps one of you player-programmers) thinking about adding something that will allow us to see what salvage each character has? I'm tired of running back and forth from the vault to WW to see it, writing it down in my little notebook and then trying to plan what I need. I'd use Excel to track it, but it's too cumbersome for when I'm actually in game.

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One thing I would like to see is a single screen viewable by the account holder only, that lists all characters in the account on all servers, with the date and time of last login (among other info). So I can see at a glance if any alt is about to slip into 60 day consignment house limbo.

Seeing what each individual character is holding in their various inventories would be a nice perk. However, I think, if it hasn't been mentioned or added yet, that with such a feature has to come a mode in the vault that shows certain information only to the character owner, while other information is made public to all viewers of the vault. Inventory would definitely be one of those.

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They did not go "out of the box" to develop the numbers interfaces.


You guys are so going to be kissing his butt in a couple of months.

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You're a shill for NC^2, ain't ya...

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I gotta give them some sugar when they do right, 'cause I whack 'em pretty hard when they go astray.


Plus, I'm glad I can finally talk about this. I was always hoping for numbers one day, but pohsyb's User Configurable Buff-o-Meter is something I never thought we'd have until not too long ago. It might be the closest we ever get to debug mode in the game.

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At a rough guess Pohsyb.


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And that means what to me exactly?


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pohsyb is an NCNC developer. He writes stuff. These days, (sometimes) stuff with numbers in it.

They didn't need to license anything to put numbers into the game. They just needed to find a way to get pizza and beer into pohsyb's box. I haven't specifically seen anything that's been written for this feature yet of course, but I have 100% complete confidence in pohsyb that it'll be cool whatever it ends up looking like if they just let him do his thing.

Very lucky for us that NCNC pulled him back from the grip of that other superhero MMO.

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Fixing up the leveling curve will be very nice since so many of my alts are in the 25-35 range. Although I wonder what the devs have in mind... Like, if they were gonna lower the actual needed XP/Level, that could cause some people who are like, 39.9 to level up to 40 and maybe half a bar's XP. I can see many people loving that.

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We'll have more details when that patch goes to public testing on the Training Room, but as I understand it, we won't be changing the actual xp needed per level. That would have the kind of repercussions you speak of where someone could just level without doing anything. Rather, I believe it has to do with increasing common ways that people get XP in the level ranges the team is targeting (defeating critters, for example).

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The most logical way I can think of to "smooth the levelling curve" is to boost the XP bonus for missions, end of mission arcs, and critter defeats in specific level ranges. If they are being more sophisticated, they might even be datamining which are the least XP-efficient missions (say, something with three escort NPCs, few critters, and a map the size Arizona that's taking everyone ten times longer than average to finish) and streamlining them, or increasing the rewards for them.

I always thought there should be a better reward for NPC escorts, since they can't really be blitzed or trivially farmed and radically slow down the XP earning rate of anyone who has to perform them.

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My hope is that it displays IO information such as set bonuses.

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It would more or less have to, otherwise its value as a tool would be pretty low The only question is how they categorize the various bonuses (i.e. tack damage set bonuses on top of the damage enhancement bonus of individual powers, list them as a global damage bonus, etc). I think the way its done in Mid's right now would be a pretty good model to start with.

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Frankly in the grand tradition of Microsoft I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of these much desired improvements such as City Vault and 'Real Numbers' are actually based on some licensing partnerships between NCsoft and the more popular fan based websites/applications such as CiT and Mid's Hero Designer. As you pointed out it'd be easier for our Devs to leverage off of existing implementations rather than to recreate these things completely from scratch.

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They did not go "out of the box" to develop the numbers interfaces.


You guys are so going to be kissing his butt in a couple of months.

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It appeared, based on the discussion surrounding the time when the two ally bubbles were bumped to 4 minutes that the original intent appeared to be, as so many things were in the original conception for the game, that the bubbles were supposed to cost "just enough" in time and endurance to make you think about whether to apply them or not, rather than to monotonously perma them, so that the bubbles presented an actual tactical decision.

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/em scratches head

Isn't that what I said?
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The game plan seems to have been, "Buff whoever needs it, and watch out for who's taking what kind of damage. From 18 to 32, evolve away from buffing into keeping mobs out of melee for squishies and onto rooted tankers."

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You also said:

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From 18 to 32, evolve away from buffing into keeping mobs out of melee for squishies and onto rooted tankers.

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I don't believe the set was ever intended to "evolve away" from bubbling. I believe bubbling was always supposed to be a critical tactical option, just not one that was always used on everyone all the time, at any combat level.

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Real numbers - Long, long, long overdue. Make sure they are kept accurate though. When the history of keeping power text upto date with chnages isn't exactly good, this is key.
To me its better to have no numbers, than wrong numbers.

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In the past, this has been a major problem. This time around, I'm very confident that's much less likely to happen.


I'm guessing people will be pleased with this one.


Edit: see this part: "This includes a user configurable display of important characteristics such as movement rate, regeneration rate, resistances and many more! Additionally, you will be able to see how those statistics are affected in real time by buffs and/or debuffs affecting your character." This implies something about where these numbers will be coming from: this is not a "Prima" thing that can be messed up by bad editing.

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* a brief history lesson, for anyone who bothers to read what I write. FF had 3 single target bubbles on 2 minute timers in Beta. I.e., it was pretty much impossible to keep a full team buffed. The game plan seems to have been, "Buff whoever needs it, and watch out for who's taking what kind of damage. From 18 to 32, evolve away from buffing into keeping mobs out of melee for squishies and onto rooted tankers." As Empathy moves from healing to more general purpose buffing, so to would FF evolve from buffing to throwing. That ... didn't work out.

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I wasn't specifically in beta, but unless this was explicitly stated during beta, I don't think that was the intent. It appeared, based on the discussion surrounding the time when the two ally bubbles were bumped to 4 minutes that the original intent appeared to be, as so many things were in the original conception for the game, that the bubbles were supposed to cost "just enough" in time and endurance to make you think about whether to apply them or not, rather than to monotonously perma them, so that the bubbles presented an actual tactical decision. It took the devs a while to realize that a sizeable percentage of the player population (right or wrong) didn't want or believe in "tactical options." They believed if you had it, you were supposed to always use it. That if you had it, and didn't use it, and something went wrong because of that, it would be extremely frustrating for some players. Basically, their playerbase would be very quickly addicted to power: if a player got a taste of it, they would never accept not having it all the time.

Ironically, when they did bump the bubbles to four minutes, I predicted that within a year, some FF defenders would be complaining that the set was boring because once you deployed the bubbles, there was nothing to do. I was wrong: it took less than six months.


One thing I find interesting about the psychology of the game (and MMOs in general) is that MMO designers tend to think of their creation as a game, and design it as if it was a set of interlocking mini-games. Games have challenges, and hurdles, and points, and rewards.

But a lot of players don't see CoH (or any other MMO) as a game. They see it as something closer to a marathon. XP isn't points, XP is progress. There's a goal, and its the finish line. And what they want is a straight, clear, level path to it that they can run at their own pace. They do not want an obstacle course, or a day of Ninja Warrior. They just want to jog straight ahead, maybe with some friends, make it to the next checkpoint, and then quit for the day. They do not want to dodge a bunch of swinging sandbags while doing it. That's why they want their characters to perform at a particular, predictable level, every day, every hour, and every minute, until its time to move to the next level.

I *don't*, in general, play that way, which is why I find the perspective interesting.

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Actually, the MAJORITY of the playerbase that plays FF has a problem with how the "other six" powers play.

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I would feel comfortable saying that its very likely a majority of FF players are not especially happy with the non-bubbles also. But that's not quite what I said: I said I'm not certain that a majority of players think that is actually a major problem. Many seem to like just taking the bubbles, and the occasional force bolt, and ignoring the rest, leaving room for lots of options outside the set.


Put it this way: suppose it was decided that FF was going to get a buff, and the buff was, say, an ally damage-boosting ability. Suppose the choice was between replacing repulsion bomb with a damage buff aura, or just adding it to dispersion bubble. I suspect that some players would be in favor of jettisoning RB and adding a utility power, but others would be in favor of adding it to dispersion, which they already have, and continuing to be free to forget about RB.

This is a trivial choice at the beginning of time. If this is still CoH beta, you ditch RB and add in the aura (if that is what you've decided to change). But this is 2008, and people have come to expect certain things from FF. One of them is, for at least some people, that its a "light" set. I don't think we should trivially toss that expectation aside.

Yes, it has some questionable powers. And yes, ideally they should be more universally respected. But should all players be forced to adjust to a set that is so designed, after a long time playing with one that wasn't? I don't find that to be a trivial question to answer.

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It works the other way as well; there are advantages to not having your outward appearance tied to your abilities. You don't have the problem of people rejecting you for teams because you don't have the +27 Breastplate of Gonkulation. You are judged on the caliber of your play, not on the caliber of your equipment. I can play a Mind/Emp controller, and as long as I make a positive contribution to the team, it doesn't really matter whether I have Purple Sets slotted or I chose Mass Confusion or not.

Z

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Well, it matters if your primaries/secondaries aren't slotted adequately. Six-slot rest, anyone? 1accx5dam? DO's in your 30's? Red SO's? One slot in your attacks, lots of slots in your fluff powers?
It's not as harsh as WoW, but if you don't slot adequately, your character is gimped.

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If you don't slot optimally then you won't be optimal. But I could probably play a character that was randomly generated, with random powers and random slotting, and make it seem like I meant it all along, with just the right application of skill. In fact, some players have come back from long breaks, stepped into their pre-ED "broken" builds, and been able to play just fine until they decided to respec, if they ever did. Could they play optimally? Obviously not. But they seemed to be able to play effectively.

I've been told that's not quite so easy to do in many other games.


In this game, at least, skill is more important than slotting.

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When you get right down to it, though, we're talking about a fairly equal balance between the three. Rad has strong defenses, but really doesn't measure up quite to the other two. Dark is strong defensively, but in ways that FF isn't, and FF is strong in ways Dark isn't. The bigger question is, if FF is NOT significantly more powerful defensively, should it not also have comparable power offensively, at least compared to Dark?

I don't really have any problem with Dark being comparable to Force Field. I just want to see the two either be more comparable, or Force Field have the obvious advantage in defense.

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I think I can make the argument that FF has the advantage in defense, although no defense (i.e. mitigation) situation is ever "obvious." But I don't know that I believe it has enough of an advantage.

Even if it does, I think that's both a blessing and a curse in terms of how the set functions overall, which is why I think it still has design issues. But I don't think blatant underperformance is its problem. I think the problem with the set is more subtle than that, separate from the issues many (but not necessarily a majority) of players have with the way the set seems to play.