Another_Fan
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Whichever one you can dump the most inf into.
People tout mental as the overpowering outlier but it only achieves great power under two conditions, against spawns that have enough regeneration that drain psyches ability to stop regeneration actually matters and when there are enough enemies in melee range that psychic shockwave and drain psyche become useful.
In the first case yes being able to solo giant monsters is nice but you can do that on other ATs for considerably less effort. In the second case yes you are more survivable but do you really want to be in the middle of a spawn when one stun will kill you ?
If you want to play a blaster that can survive nearly anything and do so reliably devices all the way, couple it with any primary that has a stun.
You can keep bosses stunned until they are dead. You have the capability to insure that enemies never get to melee range of you and and aren't attacking very much while they try. You have a pet that even though annoying will take damage for you.
It's slow but it works.
If you want a blaster that is survivable, does lots of burst damage and slaughters spawns quickly, try an electrical melee/xxx/pyre stalker or a claws/xxx/pyre scrapper. -
Quote:Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
S/L def =25%
S//L resistance = 70%
HP = 2400 hp ::from dull pain and accolades::
A blaster using the ice epic
S/L def = 28 %
S/l Resistance = 16%
HP = 1609 from frostwork and accolades
the scrapper/blaster overall survivability = (def mitigation ratio)*(resistance mitigation ratio) * (hp ratio)
= (.22/.25)* (.84/.30)* (2400/1600) = 3.69
3.7 is much less than 20
None of this takes into account status effects, or the fact the blaster can take a second heal and fight at range.Quote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
A factor of 20 sounds more like what happens if you soft cap both characters, and/or possibly cap the Invul's L/S resists.Quote:Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
Invuln Scrapper
S/L def =45%
S//L resistance = 75%
HP = 2400 hp ::from dull pain and accolades::
A blaster using the ice epic and softcapped
S/L def = 45 %
S/l Resistance = 16%
HP = 1609 from frostwork and accolades
the scrapper/blaster overall survivability = (def mitigation ratio)*(resistance mitigation ratio) * (hp ratio)
= (.1/.1)* (.84/.25)* (2400/1600) = 5.04
5 is still less than 20.Quote:Originally Posted by Diellan_
Were you explicitly looking at just one target for Invincibility, because at the saturation point, the Scrapper would have 35.7% S/L Def, using your simple metric gives it (.22/.143)*(.84/.30)*(2400/1600)=6.46.
4 Different comparisons of blaster and not one factors in the fact blasters have 0 mez protection and can derive mitigation from staying at range.
But it doesn't really matter.
The devs are telegraphing what they consider the fix for blaster problems.
And if this ever goes live it just won't matter. Bad enough Stalkers are criting half the time but scrappers using their damage mod and criting half the time will put them so far ahead of blasters in damage it will be sickening. -
Quote:Oh my go away for 10 days and miss the charm offensive.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Do you say that because you believe it, or because you think there is any chance at all anyone else will?
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Quote:Good it demonstrates that you are just talking out your rear. The Tychonic system of the earth being in the center of the universe but having the sun orbit the earth and planets orbiting the sun was overtaking the Ptolemaic system.Originally Posted by Diellan_
No. Because I said supplanted, not generated. Alternate theories existed, but they didn't replace the Ptolemaic and other heliocentric models until people could perform accurate tests. Kepler's work, for example, wasn't generally accepted until after his death, when people were able to test his work by making a prediction (about the transit of Mercury and Venus) and then performing an experiment to test it (by watching for said transit - Horrox using a telescope to do precisely that).
Its ironic, that you can note the Passover/Easter holiday here
and miss the fact that these people were what was preventing the heliocentric concept from being adopted.Quote:This is a non-starter in rational argumentation, it has no meaning: ArcanaVille and I could easily make the same claim in your direction. Part of the reason this response is coming so late (beyond the fact that I have been away from my home for several days in the past week, due to vacation, home remodeling, and Passover), is that it smacks of an intellectual arrogance bordering on rudeness ("I haven't been able to convince you, so obviously you can't be convinced") and I was quite sure that I didn't want to continue the discussion. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here I am.
In case you don't recognize it, that's Galileo before the inquisition were what was preventing the heliocentric from being adopted.
Sorry but looking at blaster performance isn't going to tell you much of anything. As for what you do with it, when the stats about popularity came out last she argued bitterly against my position that the drop off was indicative of people getting sick of playing blasters somewhere in the mid level.Quote:That is a method. As ArcanaVille pointed out later, data is simply that: data. What you do with the data is up to you, and there is a lot of room for error.
I have to wonder what epiphany Arcanavile had, that led to the change in position. -
Quote:You never claimed to be an expert on game theory ?Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Making up even more stuff as usual.
You didn't state that Kepler data mined his laws of motion ?
I suppose for you it must be difficult to keep your fabrications straight. -
Quote:Oh this from someone who proclaimed themselves an expert on game theory because they read a book on it, and has people using techniques 400 years before they were invented.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Making up stuff as usual it is.
You still haven't put up how increasing blaster damage is a poor way to help them survive. Don't worry that one can wait, I am sure it takes some effort to skew the assumptions so the point is proved. -
Quote:Originally Posted by New Dawn
"Blaster heroes must be on their guard before combat; while their immense power can overcome most foes, alone they are quite vulnerable. The Blaster can turn the tide of a conflict, but they need their friends to help them succeed."
I have always found blasters have the absolute least ability to turn the tide of any combat in the game. (Well neglecting vengeance. Dead Blaster = Vengeance + Fallout + Rise of the Phoenix = Dead Blasters FTW)
There also aren't many situations where other ATs can't overcome the same foes as fast or faster than the blaster, with greater reliability. -
Quote:There is something you don't have a metric for ?Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Stalkers should get some interest on their money if they paid for something back in I6 and getting delivery in I22.
Also, just exactly what prompts you to say that their reduced survivability "just happens" to fall at the balance point for that? That sounds like you actually believe you can state a) what the average survivability gap between scrappers and stalkers is (and its not proportional to the health difference) and b) there's a metric that balances survivability against AoE damage. Please enlighten us. Because I have no such metric, and I know for a fact the devs don't either. So that makes exactly one of us, and I'm sure you will be more than happy to educate us.
Or you're just making stuff up as usual.
Edit: Silly me give you a few minutes I am sure you will fabricate something whole cloth.
Edit: AgainThe obvious conclusion is they did what they always do. Ignored it.Quote:b) there's a metric that balances survivability against AoE damage. Please enlighten us. Because I have no such metric, and I know for a fact the devs don't either.
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Quote:You can softcap ninjutsu without hide relatively easily. If it gained extra debuff resistance from the change in values, it wouldn't need hides little extra bit of defense and whatever power was put in there (regular stealth ?) would just contribute more to the sets overall hardiness.Originally Posted by UberGuy
I remember a discussion with someone a long time back who came up with D/R/R* values for all the major powersets. (It was, somewhat ironically, part of a debate about whether or not Stalkers should have their MaxHP cap increased.) I recall that Ninjitsu had one of the highest values of all the sets at the time.
I presume that would remain true if it was ported to Scrappers and/or Brutes, though it would lose Hide's +defense along the way.
* Defense/Resistance/Regen is a synthetic value related to immortality line. It's your average HP recovery (both regen and heals) divided by your average damage admittance. It represents the maximum average damage/sec you can face without ever dying. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You say that like reading the words multiple times will make it more true. Stalkers did not pay for the privilege of doing "one thing a little better" with "lowered survivability and less AoE."
That statement is false on its face.
Oh so its just a happy coincidence that they are allowed to have more single target and their reduced survivability just happens to fall at the balance point for that ? -
Quote:Its pretty obvious EVERYONE'S ANNOYANCE was your goal and only concern.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
It's 134 actually. (1338 v. 1204) And I mean no disrespect, but your annoyance is neither my goal or my concern.
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Quote:Au contraireOriginally Posted by EvilGeko
That might be what you meant. But that's not what you said.
Quote:The price of getting a problem fixed for them is that they likely won't have another serious adjustment before the servers shut down and will be pigeonholed in 2nd banana position till the end.
That is exactly what I said
Its pretty hard to take that question or you seriously when you fail to understand that repulsing torrent is a survivability tool.Quote:What survivability tools do Scrappers have that Stalkers don't? What AoEs did Electric Melee, Kinetic Melee (Oh right Repulsing Torrent, LOL), Street Justice and soon to be Staff lose?
Oh just a note you still haven't made any kind of an argument for your assertion that stalkers are as survivable as scrappers nor have you done any kind of comparison between the powers in the primaries and the secondaries on the respective ATS
In other words stop trying to blow smoke out your rear
Stalkers can run continuous aoe chains with damage auras going at the same time ?Quote:Scrappers and Brutes can have a 50% crit rate Fireball?
No they can't, but thank you for tossing out a red herring. -
Quote:And I don't accept your idea that hide and placate, make up for the loss of AoEs, survivability tools, and less HP. NANNY NANNY Boo BooOriginally Posted by EvilGeko
Discussing these issues in turn:
1. Stalkers do not have lower survivability than Scrappers. I simply will no longer accept any argument based on 134 Health and completely ignoring Hide and Placate.
Seriously that isn't even a good strawman you are building there.
Scrappers , stalkers, brutes all have better fireballs than blasters the only thing this proves is that something is wrong somewhereQuote:2. On average Stalkers have less AoE options than Scrappers. This is true. It is not a constant. It is not always true that if you take any Scrapper and put him up against any Stalker, the Scrapper wins in AoE. However, every single Stalker can have Fireball and that's better than some Blaster combos have access to, so Stalkers don't get much sympathy from me on this front anymore.
Yes except that I specifically said what the price was BUZZZQuote:BONUS: Your castigation of Arcana and Leo is misplaced. You wrote a paragraph. The first sentence of which uses the word 'now'. The only reasonable interpretation is that you are discussing the state of Stalkers after the Issue 22 buffs. You then state in your second sentence that "they pay for that privilege," with the survivability and all that. You tied the two concepts together. -
Quote:I went down everything. The sets that are comparable are few the sets with deficits are many. This doesn't even consider sets that stalkers don't get like fire or Titan weapons.Originally Posted by Reppu
Didn't I say specifically "Electric Melee, Kinetic Melee, or Street Justice" in my previous post? As an aside those are three of the most popular Stalker primaries. It's a case of 'cherry picking'.
I can argue right now a lot of Scrapper and Brute primaries have terrible AoE, and if you select one of those primaries you have terrible AoE and less ST than a Stalker.
My idea of fantastic AoE and yours are 2 different things, but I will gladly take the higher base damage, of a scrappers lightning rod, when combined with a fully saturated against all odd and combined with a shield charge. (Oh if you want apples to apples here toss in a fire ball on the scrapper as ridiculous follow up)Quote:If a Stalker goes Fire Mastery, their AoE is amazing due to automatic 100% Damage Criticals. If they are Electric Melee, Kinetic Melee, or Street Justice, their AoE is 'Great', 'Stupid' or 'Good Enough' respectively. Combine both, like you like to do with Scrapper/Brute secondaries, and yes. They WILL keep up.
Now you see here, I am comparing an extreme good case to extreme good case. You want to compare the best stalker to poor scrappers sure.
You aren't even playing in the same league. I measure AoE effectiveness in minutes/map. Fantastic AoE mows down armies without pausing spawn to spawnQuote:Considering I've wiped out Minions/Killed or Wounded Lts/Wounded Bosses with Build Up + Burst + AS + Fireball chain crits due to Stalkerlololol, I'm pretty sure I can at least say KM has exceptionally absurd AoE Damage, 'for a stalker'. And in general, too. -
Quote:Wow that is actually valid. But, None of that is really going to move stalkers up on aoe and improving placate isn't going to put them on a par with scrappers or brutes for survivability.Originally Posted by Leo_G
Yeaaaah, Stalkers didn't pay anything for the changes they got.
The price of 'not ever being looked at in another decade' is also not happening. The devs themselves said they were going to do a bit more tweeking with Stalkers...like, the next beta. Yes, they're going to normalize the Assassin's Strike animations so that they all animate in 1 second vs a couple animating faster than 1 and the majority animating slower than 1. They also said they may look into shortening Placate's animation. This was all put off till later because they didn't have the resources to do it when the Assassin's Focus gimmick was added.
So yeaaaah, Stalkers didn't pay what you think they paid...
Actually forgetting the sets that stalkers just don't get every primary loses either an AoE or a survivability toolQuote:Yes, corner cases like Claws and the Swords very much lose AoE but many of the sets lose no AoE or only lose AoE on a technicality that it wasn't very good AoE to begin with (Dark Consumption, Repulsing Torrent, that cone in Staff) but gain the ability to combine their inherent with the AoE they have, resulting in a 50% chance of double damage on the targets hit.
Broadsword
Dark
Energy Melee (LOL not even whirling hands ?)
Claws
Katana vs Ninja Blade
Martial arts
Heck even spines loses spine burst.
You toss in sets like /fire /elec /shield
The stalkers don't even come close -
Quote:AwweOriginally Posted by Reppu
That statement is untrue unless the Brute or Scrapper is TW/Fire, or the Brute is SS/Fire, and the Stalker is EM (ALL the AoE plus having great ST thanks to AS), KM (100% Damage 100% Critical Burst. Add in Fireball for AoE that makes Brutes and Scrappers envious) or StJ (Spinning Strike is sufficient. Sweeping Cross is decent).
You weren't as clear as you thought you were, is the only problem I see. Sorry. Being wrong twice is rough.
Not even close on the aoe.
EDIT: Just because it makes me laugh
You mean unless it's
Claws vs Claws
Broadsword vs Broadsword
etc etc etc -
Quote:Could be. Thought it was pretty obvious. We are talking about an equivalence laid out as a single sentenceOriginally Posted by Xzero45
Maybe you just weren't as clear as you thought you were when you said that?
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Quote:Originally Posted by Reppu
I'd suggest the same to you. Stalkers didn't 'pay' for anything for their buffs. They took no survivability losses (they GAINED survivability by a good margin).
Keep in mind dealing more damage is ALSO more survivability. But I mean the +HP Cap was a HUGE buff.
You failed here.
Good so scrappers and brutes having more survivability, and dealing more damage if the number of opponents is greater than one doesn't put stalkers solidly behind both scrappers and brutes.
Now seeing as you and Arcana can't parse a sentence please tell me where I said in this quote that they paid with a penalty to their stats ?
Quote:The price of getting a problem fixed for them is that they likely won't have another serious adjustment before the servers shut down and will be pigeonholed in 2nd banana position till the end. -
Quote:I'd suggest reading what was writtenOriginally Posted by Arcanaville
1. Stalkers paid nothing for their latest round of fixes.
2. I'll take that bet. -
Quote:ROFL. Stalkers now do one thing a little better than scrappers. They pay for that privilege with lowered survivability and less AoE. The price of getting a problem fixed for them is that they likely won't have another serious adjustment before the servers shut down and will be pigeonholed in 2nd banana position till the end.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's patently false. So much so that I won't even bother providing any of the dozen counter-examples. I'll stick with one: Stalkers.Quote:
Any 'change' made in this game comes with one third gain and 2 thirds loss... at best.. -
Quote:I think that would still be beneficial . It would allow the blaster to take out problem targets without incurring added agro. They would be able to isolate any target with AoE buffs and take them out before they were able to buff the spawn.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
A power that simultaneously phased the player and the target(s), like a combo dimension shift, would help the player solo by eliminating all the other targets from being able to shoot at him or her, but in teams that would be counterproductive because the team couldn't help you kill your target, you couldn't help them kill anything else, and they couldn't otherwise buff or heal you.
In effect, its making the teamed player effectively solo. But it does not explicitly require using it badly to generate that result. -
Quote:Psychic wail, Dreadful Wail, Atomic blast, are Stun, Stun, Hold respectively. All mag 3. -Rech on Psychic wail is insult to injury.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Among the actual mez effects, only Nova's KB and Blizzard's KD are likely to be effective against a boss (if you count KB as a mez effect). But most of the crashing tier 9s have *some* mitigation that is effective against a boss. Just not enough in my opinion (Blackstar has -tohit, Thunderous Blast as drain and recovery debuff, Psychic Wail has recharge debuff).
The crazy ones are Atomic Blast which does -DEF and Dreadful Wail which does -RES. Both fine debuffs if you had any endurance left to attack the targets with. These two suggest that those two nukes are intended only for being used in teams, or only being used if you can cheat your way out of the crash with insps. But trading mitigation for offensive debuff in a power that crashes you to zero and suppresses your recovery is quixotic to say the least.
(The remaining crashing nuke is Inferno, which at least sensibly tries to do more damage in exchange for having no mitigation - it has a legitimate shot at taking out Lts with its average damage without Build Up or Aim).
Edit: Forgot Blizzard which does KD, and more damage than inferno and is ranged. -
Quote:Vigilance stops working on teams. Well the +dam part. The end red still provides a benefit.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Vigilance...
You could increase the damage of AoE immobs by 30%.
Increase Trip Mine damage by 25%.
Create Stalkers as originally implemented... -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
At first, I thought that was impossible. But after thinking about it, I think it might be possible. But it it would not be likely to be stumbled upon either way: it would have to be engineered that way.
Edit: the game mechanic that occurred to me could theoretically be manipulated in this way is phasing.
Well if it was personal phasing it should help in both. KB might be a better candidate because if you use it, it might annoy people enough to kick you off the team.
Edit: Thinking about it both are cheats. They would have to be advantageously used solo, and detrimentally used on teams. -
Quote:Can you construct a performance improvement that helps soloing, doesn't help teaming and is actually active and behaving the same way both solo and teamed ?Originally Posted by firespray
It is as much the case as the ridiculous assertion that ANY fix that improves soloing will improve teaming as well.
I can't think how anyone would manage it.