Another_Fan
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Quote:Correlation is not causation. Especially in this case.Originally Posted by Garent
Shown here.Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville 
Since its the only theory that explains the facts, which are that prior to D2.0 Blaster performance was lower than any other archetype, and that major underperformance correlated with higher than average mezzed, higher than average deaths and debt, and higher than average death while in the mezzed state
Blasters have the worst too ls for dealing with mez in the game so it is hardly surprising that they should spend the most time mezed. Matter of fact it is almost axiomatic. What isn't shown is that mez is the cause of death or even if it is just something that comes along with the damage that kills a blaster.
It is also hardly the only theory, that's just Arcanavile creating a strawman. Here are a few alternates.
1, Blasters have the worst defenses in the game. This means mezed or unmezed they are going to die faster than other ATs
2. Blasters have the worst figure of merit in the game when it comes to survivability * damage output.
3. Blaster secondaries provide insufficient utility/survivability. Imagine if the blaster tier 1 instead of being a single target immob or kb were a an aoe/pbaoe immob or kb. The active defense would actually scale with incoming attacks instead of being useless if more than a few enemies are attacking. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Garent
If I'm understanding it right, Arcanaville said that datamining showed a lot of information about blaster deaths, including that they die more than everyone and are much more likely to die while under a mez effect. Arcanaville said that the best explanation for this is that mez is a serious issue for blasters that should be addressed. You countered that the data could more easily be explained by defiance 1.0 encouraging poor gameplay, to which Arcanaville said if that were the case then the datamining from before defiance 1.0 would not have shown blasters to be underperforming as they were afterwards.
Nope, To my knowledge she has never shown any data that link blaster death to mezz. As far as I have seen the only data we have is that blasters die a lot. When you change things they still die a lot.
We also have a data dump from the devs that shows blasters are the most popular created AT and somewhere drop off to become the third most popular at 50.
We don't know how bad it was without defiance 1.0, if defiance 1.0 made it worse, or just not better enough. We really are lacking is where the blaster with Defiance 2.0 fits in all of this as well.
You might as well be using a Magic 8 ball to determine what should be done with blasters.
Edit: And that is from someone who completely agrees that blasters have problems and has been saying so for years -
Quote:Really would you care to elaborate ? That statement seems a little sparse.Originally Posted by Garent
The logic chain seems apparent to me.
I am curious how you are extrapolating from not even data but general statements about the performance of 2 different things to arrive at a conclusion about a 3rd data set from yet another entirely different circumstance. -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
No that isn't even a particularly well thought out conjecture.
Defiance 1.0 encouraged blasters to be suicidal. It rewarded players for being near death. Defiance 2.0 changed that entirely around. While your conclusion may or may not be correct, the way you are trying to get there isn't even close to being correct.Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This would be a meaningful objection if the devs hadn't datamined blasters as being underperforming before Defiance 1.0 was introduced. That was why we *got* Defiance 1.0 in the first place, along with increased health.
Let me get this straight. I am saying you are trying to compare apples and oranges, and your response is "Look at the Kumquats" ?
OK.
If anything the only thing introducing pre defiance 1.0 blasters into the universe of discussion is to strengthen the argument that the methodology used to fix blasters in the past is fundamentally flawed. -
Quote:Fixed that for you.Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
Though some PLAYERS cannot fit into any roles, becasue they pick specifc powers and make themselves real lousy at doing much of anything....
Thus they get to be the role of SPONGE or LEECH.
Unfortunately, some people think the game should cater to that 1% absolute lowest common denominator that won't be able to help themselves no matter what. -
Quote:What is my cause ?Originally Posted by Edana
It was a comment on the futility of your approach rather than the validity of the point.
Right now its to laugh. So if you want to use the wall street analogy, it would be like going to see a speaker from Drexel Burnham Lambert give a talk on what a great investment high yield bonds are.
Or to use something more current, Bankers explain that self regulation for the banking industry is the way to go. -
Quote:That isn't the perfect flipper. That would be a flipper who acts mechanically even when it is against their own interestsOriginally Posted by UberGuy
So most of the people who say "flipping doesn't raise the price" are talking about a notion of "the price" that represents an average of the low and high prices over some time window. In that model of the market, the perfect flipper collapses the price to that price and does not change it. -
Quote:How would you list if the flipper wasn't there ? In your case the flipper is having a secondary effect shifting where you would list.Originally Posted by Scientist
Eh? When I see a price range on a drop I'm selling that looks like flippers at work, say
3M
9.5M
10M
3M
10M
I'll always list well above what the flipper is purchasing at, say 8M or 9M, and always sell it (unless the price happens to be crashing right around then, and when I come back its trending 1M-3M or something). I'm not competing with his purchase price, I'm competing with his sales price.
And if I'm doing the flipping, I'll always see some sales I didn't make, so someone is working in between my range. Meaning there is a continuous supply of items above my purchase price. If it gets *too* continuous, I move on.
It gets even worse when you set aside the very limited definition of flipping and allow for more advanced techniques. -
Quote:So far you haven't offered anything to support your statements. All you have done is just repeat that flipping narrows the price range.Originally Posted by Ironblade
Wow, gotta be 10 times by now that you or someone else has made a stupid comment along these lines. Flipping increases the lowest price for an item while simultaneously lowering the highest price; i.e. it narrows the price range.
Here's a hint. Just because you narrow the price range, doesn't mean you have decreased the price.
Here's another. You don't have to narrow the price range when flipping. -
Quote:No that isn't even a particularly well thought out conjecture.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I have asked that same question myself many times over the years, so I'm well qualified to now answer it. This is actually a very easy question to answer given the current state of the art of City of Heroes game balance. The answer is that whoever is affected by mez, the archetype designed to have the absolute least amount of protection should not be it, because doing so makes them too vulnerable to being defeated compared to other archetypes which have either vastly superior protection, vastly superior countermez, or vastly superior buff/debuff.
That's not a conjecture, that's a proven theory. Since its the only theory that explains the facts, which are that prior to D2.0 Blaster performance was lower than any other archetype, and that major underperformance correlated with higher than average mezzed, higher than average deaths and debt, and higher than average death while in the mezzed state, that proves unambiguously that the net strength of the tools provided to blasters provides far less survivability than any other archetype, and that the lack of survivability is not compensated for by an increase in offensive prowess that translates into higher kill speed and higher reward earning speed.
Defiance 1.0 encouraged blasters to be suicidal. It rewarded players for being near death. Defiance 2.0 changed that entirely around. While your conclusion may or may not be correct, the way you are trying to get there isn't even close to being correct. -
Glass Cannon is perfectly fine. That description is very appealing and what attracted most of the people I know to playing blasters.
The problem with it, is whoever came up with it wouldn't know what a cannon is capable of if it shot them.
That is the effect cannon shot had on armored battleship. Seeing as we use the term "TANK" in this game, the Armor on a battleship laughs at the armor on a tank.
This is Fort Pulaski in Georgia after the Union cannons got done redecorating.
Finally mobile cannons are really easy to take out if you can get close to them, BUT
When you charge a cannon company the order goes out to load canister shot.
Imagine a shotgun with an 6 inch diameter barrel firing 1/3rd inch tungsten shotgun pellets. You have to be a certain kind of crazy to charge a cannon position.
Right now we are definitely glass, and kind of ok at range but nothing really special and in no way shape or form cannons or artillery of any kind. Artillery isn't the king of battle because it looks pretty. -
Quote:To think, I was accused of being "Vehement" and not being able to see other people's viewpoints.Originally Posted by Nethergoat
You and AF make such a smashing couple I'd feel bad not adding you to my ignore list. Have fun in there ignoring clear statements in favor of spinning your own fantasy conversations.
Well the post really doesn't need me to Fisk it. But letting people in on the joke is so much fun.
Mathematically raising the lowest prices, without lowering the highest prices is exactly that. Really if you do it well you can actually raise both the bottom prices and the highest prices. But doing that would be wrongQuote:THE PRICE FLOOR GOES UP.
THAT IS NOT THE SAME THING AS A GENERAL PRICE INCREASE.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS VERY SIMPLE POINT?
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Quote:Short answer I do that with an item. Pardon me if I don't tell you which.Originally Posted by Ironblade
Seriously, pick some random numbers out of thin air and that proves your point? I can create hypothetical examples too, but it doesn't serve a purpose.
Short answer: you really have no clue.
But if you like why don't you show examples of your flipping that lowers the price.
Edit: And once again a delta 4 launches, while the market forum goes on about how it can't be done -
Quote:These days there really isn't any reason.Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Another_Fan can you explain to me why I would want to roll a Blaster rather than a Dominator or corruptor?
If you want a challenge that will press you, just crank up the difficulty and head to dark astoria.
The prep work for soloing spawns on a dom or a corruptor is often less than on a blaster, and by upping the difficulty I can get the same kind of challenge on those ATs I get on a blaster at lower difficulty.
If you really want to go town and kill things a scrapper or brute is your bread and butter now. No set up, no fuss, no muss, just go in and kill things.
I suppose if you enjoy knowing you are working harder to gain less a blaster would be your choice. -
Quote:Swift used eating babies, it worked but he had a much more dab hand than I.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Actually, I got that. You exaggerated so far, it became inane. Your point drowned in your own hyperbole. You lost your audience (unless of course you are just talking to yourself, which is possible, I do that myself sometimes).
As to losing my audience, I really have no way to know, I am curious how you manage it ? -
Quote:AmazingOriginally Posted by Frogfather
You know, it seems disingenuous when I type it out.
That none of your other posts did.
But here is a freebie for you.
Seeing as you never said, What is your definition of market manipulation ? -
Quote:Really ?Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Nope (although I prefer to call them team reliant). I never said I wasn't insane, I was just clarifying what I called your examples.
Then let me help your noble endeavor.
Satire: 1. the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
You seem to have missed that the whole post was satirical and exaggerated. -
Quote:Well and good. If you feel that altering the price structure of an item to make it harder to buy at low price in a timely fashion is not manipulation, and you personally don't mind waiting months or years to buy things there is no manipulation.Originally Posted by Frogfather
Fair enough...if thats the way you look at it then then I understand your definition of "manipulation" is anybody doing anything on the market at any time for any reason and I concede you've won the entirety of the discussion.
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Quote:Yes, so you have changed your mind about blasters being fun because they do poorly ?Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I called them inane. It was not a typo.
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Quote:The trick here is to create a sufficiently narrow definition of flipping so that any activity that drives up price is excluded.Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Given your comically broad definition of "manipulated" this information is value free.
You also have to define manipulation as : Any attempt to change the price structure of the market that does not result in a profit.
That way if someone is making money doing it, its not manipulation and all manipulation is ultimately doomed. -
Quote:In that case you have spent time instead of inf. Either way he has raised your price.Originally Posted by Frogfather
False really? Everything is supplied eventually, Im not a "buy it nao" person, so unless we're talking about something that is no longer produced your statement is incorrect. The floor is still 3million unless theres some arbitrary time frame youve decided on.
I understand its semantics really....but I think all your arguments are predicated on perspective and what you get so vehement about is just seeing things from a different vantage point....
Personally I value my time more than I do my inf. -
Quote:How do you mean just fine ?Originally Posted by Tater Todd
My WP, Elec Armor, Energy Aura Brute gets along just fine without the fighting pool.
You have cheated yourself of an additional 17% + of smash lethal resistance and nearly 6% def to everything. Replacing those with set bonuses is a pretty tall order.
Looking at WP that takes your smash lethal resistance from around 50% to 30% which is a real gutshot to survivability.
On energy aura it looks even worse. -
Quote:You will be excluded from the mutual admiration society, your accomplishments will be disregarded and you will be ostracized from the fold in general.Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
You made a lot of fake money flipping. Grats! Me too. If you want to define that as market manipulation, though, recognize that you may be in a somewhat lonely (and frequently ignored...) club.
Discussion forum or a cult ? Hard to tell. -
Quote:Hmmm kind of like Warren Buffet ?Originally Posted by Edana
What you're doing is more akin to walking into Wall Street and ranting from a soap box about the evils of capitalism.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business...ry-talk-taxes/
Oh you probably were shooting for something less valid and complimentary. -
Quote:.Originally Posted by Frogfather
This example is incorrect. He raised the low end to three million and change. So by your standards he's raised the lower bound by less than a million and lowered the upper bound by between 5 and 0 million
I believe that would be a net lowering of the price
You make the assumption that there is a continuous stream of items listed just above the flipper's purchase price. This is FALSE.
Its pretty easy to see why, if there is a continuous input of items into the market at just above the flippers buy price they will never sell their item.