Another_Fan
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Posts
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Quote:IIRC for the common it was around 6% bypassing the ED cap. It went up as the rarity went up. It was enough to make slotting a gladiators unique more optional than a overwhelming goal.Originally Posted by UberGuy
It wasn't an especially large bonus if you were at the ED cap. The amount that bypassed ED was increased towards the end of its beta presence. The largest benefit was for things that you didn't already have near-ED slotting for. The remainder was about on par with good set bonuses, at least for equivalent things. (For example, there's no such thing, currently, as a global end reduction set bonus.) But again, there's no reason to replace set bonuses with Incarnate bonuses except as an optimization for things you either don't need more of or you can't get more of due to attribute caps.
As things stand with many enhancement sets they have shortcomings in what they enhance. If you have a build that is targeted aoe heavy you tend to be short recharge in those powers. The incarnate slot lets you fix those.
Your experience of how people deal with exemplaring issues is different than mine. The people I do know that build with an eye towards exemplaring tend to use the second build for that. It allows you to get much better performance by using inaccessible powers for set mules, and you can do things like slot beyond ED, or frankenslot with IOs that won't be affected in the powers you plan to have available.Quote:Almost everyone I play with in game makes some concession to it with their IO builds. It's one thing to be willing to lose set bonuses that go over and above good enhancement slotting when you exemplar down today. It turns out that some of the best global bonuses - good enough to consider replacing slotting benefits - come from purples, which conveniently ignore exemplar rules. So for most builds, easy exemplar concessions come from slotting low-level globals (LotGs, BotZs, etc.) and purples.
With what we know of Incarnate bonuses, you get global enhancements that could entirely replace slotting for some things across your powers. But if you took such a build into an exemplar setting at any non-50 level, it would be quite gimp, possibly lacking adequate slotting of things everyone considers fairly key: recharge, endurance, accuracy or damage. I don't play with anyone who would be willing to do that to their builds, though I know a couple of people on the forums who might be willing to.
I haven't seen anything that suggests to me that my characters wouldn't benefit significantly from having both set bonuses and complementary choices of Incarnate benefits. Not all the things we saw in I18 were things any enhancement today can do, and remember you can only slot one effect at a time in each Incarnate slot. (That's confirmed public info on the updated system as of today.) The way I'm going to min/max that is to choose the best combination of benefits for my goals, and I'm convinced that's going to include plenty of set bonuses with Incarnate benefits giving me things sets can't, or things they can give me more of than my powersets can slot sets for. -
Quote:You should read what I wrote.Originally Posted by Misaligned
Please go back and read the "plain english" write up that was done on the incarnate system. If launched as that guide described, you'll be sorely disappointed that its not really close to what you seem to think it is. While yes, in theory you could rebuild your powers around your incarnate slot, you'd be hard pressed to do so in most cases without sacrificing something else that your incarnate isn't picking up.
Re: Exemplar friendly builds -
Actually, a lot of people do. And I mean a LOT. There's a reason that the demand for level 25-33 IOs stays so steady - and it not new players coming up through those ranks.
Essentially, if you never plan to exempt below 33, you need not bother with a build that focuses on maximizing % useage. However, if you exemplar at all, it a great idea to look into creating a secondary build that will allow you to remain functional. For example - i you have an /SR toon that only has soft capped defense at level 45+, you're pretty much SoL if you do anything but a top level TF. -
Quote:From the way I read the plans in beta the incarnates were both a global slot, and and a bypass to ED. So if you were slotting purple sets for the recharge bonus, slotting the incarnate bonus, would give you the equivalent of a large global recharge bonus for everything at the ED cap, and eveything else that wasn't at ED cap it would push towards the cap or slightly beyond if you were close enough.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Bear in mind that I am answering this concern with I18 beta information, from before the early Incarnate features were pulled from GR. (I would have to be breaking an NDA to answer with info more recent.)
Unless I19 significantly alters the nature of the Incarnate system, I don't think you need to worry in the way you are, for a couple of reasons.
First, Incarnate effects we could see in I18 were relatively orthogonal to those from Inventions. Sure, picking one of many examples, if you get a global endurance discount, that competes with +recovery bonuses. You could maybe avoid needing global +recovery bonuses in a build that had global -endcost. But you could also have both and have even more lasting power. It's really no different from saying that having a strong team of buffers and debuffers makes IO bonuses unnecessary. It's true, but misses that, barring slamming into attribute caps, having both is still probably better.
Second, the Incarnate features only worked at level 50. If that's still in effect in I19, and if you plan to exemplar at all, you will need a build that doesn't assume Incarnate slot benefits.
Personally, I suspect that the best Incarnate builds will still involve set bonuses. They may change the prioritization of what sets are considered "best", but I think that will be the worst extent of making your build efforts worth "nothing".
That would be the first set.
I agree with you on exemping but just how many people go to the trouble to make exemplar friendly builds ? -
Quote:ED is another.Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
lmao. and DR didn't do what it was supposed to which was to bring more people into PvP. really bad example there guy. why don't you stay out of the market forums and quit crying about the market.
And seeing as you can't comprehend the difference. In terms of equalizing power levels DR did accomplish its goal. What the I13 changes didn't do was make more builds viable or bring more people to PvP. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Nethergoat
there is no way to 'level the playing field' between efficient power gamers and 'casual' players and I wish they'd stop trying.
MMO players who devote more time and energy to the game are going to reap much greater rewards than 'baseline' players, period.
Complete failure of the imagination and memory ?
Diminishing returns is a giant counter example.
I suspect the incarnate system is going to be another. The more incarnate enhances you have the less important sets and set bonuses will be. -
Quote:I need to add an E: to my list of market forum reactions. If they aren't trying to call you names you lost the argument.Originally Posted by Misaligned
You don't live by any clock towers, do you?
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Quote:Man you accused everyone in this thread that disagreed with you, of invalidating your entire life, and deciding you were a rotten person ? You did it in a thread that was so bad it had to be nuked ?Originally Posted by Misaligned
Wow. Just... wow.
Good luck with your life. At this point I am writing you off as a severely lost cause. You just have no idea how insane you actually sound, do you?
See ya.
Now you go calling other people insane ?
WOW !!!
Are you trying to pick a fight Camper ? Or are you just trying to paint me as a conspiracy nut just to slander arguments you don't like ?Quote:Originally Posted by Camper
That's a question you should ask yourself.
I say when people can do something they invariably do. You tell me where there's a conspiracy in that statement, if you can. -
Quote:Take your own advice. You went completely nuts because people told you, your experimental technique was poor. Pardon me if I react badly to people telling me I hate things I don't, I am kowtowing to a party line, or I have some desire to persecute people I have never met.Originally Posted by Misaligned
First, stop being an *******. Really, this is quite immature and frankly, you lose more credibility just being a dick than for the blatant statements you make.
Read your thread. You have people saying that flippers can and do raise prices, and the other side, inasmuch as there are well defined sides saying, "OH Yeah do an experiment where you raise prices"Quote:Second... if:
Then wtf is your problem? Are you dense? Incapable of reading? Illeterate or just a jerk? Cause hey - no one is saying those aren't true.
But hey, you keep at it.
[/SIZE][/SIZE]
Now we have a new thread where an attempt is being made to redefine flipping as something completely innocuous. Its already failed. I wonder how many people have spotted the error. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Camper
I'm starting to get it now, I think. Another_Fan sees manipulation everywhere, apparently. I just don't see it that way at all. I'm not sure either of us has the time, energy or ability to convince one another of each other's position.
I'm just not predisposed to see conspiracies when I can envision another explination.
Why would you need a conspiracy ?
All I say is that the conditions are there and it happens.
I'll even go so far as to say its an outgrowth of the poor design of the market system. There may be large double blind auction houses that accept items on consignment in the real world but I don't know of any of them. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Actually, it's an excellent indicator that my patience for people who show up and start yelling UP IS DOWN, WHY SHOULD I PROVE ANYTHING, I JUST KNOW IT SO NYAAAH NYAAAH NYAAAAH! is shot after years of explaining very basic, obvious principles to blinkered know-nothings who're too lazy or disingenuous to back up their claims with data.
LOL this from a guy, who accepts what may have been the worst experiment on face value and spends endless posts defending it, but when anyone comes out with the slightest big of challenging data spins like a turbine. -
Quote:LOL you can't even be consistent in a single post.Originally Posted by Misaligned
Misaligned rewrites peoples positions and attempts to rewrite history as well
You start this thread with propaganda masquerading as an experiment
Or maybe you didn't try and pass this off as significant
Quote:I haven't impacted the price at all. It hasn't gone up or down. I can still buy high and sell low at will.
Now you are trying to say your position was that "Flippers don't always have a negative effect".
OK !!!
Sure you did.
And anyone who actually reads this thread will see that is exactly what you have said, and it wasn't just you lashing out at people who said you did a sloppy job. You attacking people for saying things were possible, that you said weren't. You spinning like a top when evidence that completely destroyed your position was presented, and finally you trying to extract yourself from the quagmire you created.
Just so you understand, seeing as you have managed to miss it in the hundreds of posts I have made on the subject.
My positions have always been
1. Prices can and are manipulated anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or a liar.
2. You can buy high and sell even higher and make a profit.
3. People that don't like playing the market game should have comparable alternatives. Seeing as they now do 3 is moot.
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Quote:First you need to apply that same logic to both sides of the argument not just one.Originally Posted by Ironblade
Wrong. That's not what I'm saying "in effect" (great weasel words there).
What if he is mis-identifying *SOME* flipper activity and draws conclusions based on those observations?
Saying "Flippers cause this and flippers cause that and I know it's true because I saw it with my own eyes." just doesn't carry any weight. There's too much other stuff going on.
Look at all the times that there have been large, sudden movements in the stock market and no one can explain why. The market is highly regulated and there are tons of smart people who are well-paid to keep an eye on it.... and they can't always explain what's going on. Our market is almost totally opaque (except to the devs, presumably). It's a 'black box' where you do things through the market interface and stuff happens. If it existed in a vacuum, you could do controlled experiments and figure out the properties of the market. But it doesn't. There are hundreds of other people messing with it at any given time. Some are buying to use, some are buying to craft and sell, some are flipping, some are maliciously manipulating.
Now, I'm not saying you can't draw general conclusions and learn the market well enough to use it effectively. I'm saying that people are just blowing smoke when they start talking in absolutes about the characteristics of the market with statements like "FLIPPERS HAVE EXACTLY THIS EFFECT!"
When someone says flippers stabilize prices they are making that exact same leap you are accusing mean n vicious of.
Second I have no idea how you can go from statements like "cause prices to rise" to exactly this effect.
Third " I'm not saying you can't draw general conclusions" is exactly what you did say. People are looking and seeing the pattern. Every instance that fits the pattern may not be part of it, but that's the way to bet.
When I said Alchemical silver was being manipulated I did that based on the fact that that the low price you could buy it for did a very nice consistent walk up and there was a tremendous gap between it an the buy it nao price. There may be other reasons than manipulation but I haven't seen anything better put forward as an explanation
We have more than enough examples of people doing this and it being profitable for them -
Quote:Ok you challenged mean n vicious on the fact he couldn't know for sure that the moves he attributed to flipping were caused by flippers.Originally Posted by Ironblade
(shrug) I can't even guess how you read that into my posts.
You are of correct on that point. If someone doesn't come forward and detail the experience there is no way to "KNOW". That doesn't matter. Unless its not happening at all, it does have an effect the hard question is how much ?
So when he says that he has seen the effect and you say he can't know you are in effect saying he has misidentified every time, and it doesn't happen -
Quote:The examples presented in this thread seem to show that you can drive prices in a direction and make a profit at it. (When Exxon heard this they screamed LIES). One person said it wasn't worth it, but they might not have been doing it right, the other said it was easy.Originally Posted by Ironblade
Which tells us what ONE person is doing. My point still stands. We don't know what anyone else is doing. Most of the 'experiments' done in the market are suspect for the simple reason that it's not 'laboratory conditions'. There are too many variables.
And the dramatic experiments, where people are able to drive prices all over the place, don't prove anything except that you can manipulate an item IF THAT IS YOUR GOAL. Driving prices into the sky or into the basement has zero bearing on what flippers do to prices.
What you seem to be saying is that no one does it. That would seem to be a bit of a stretch. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Ironblade
Long, rambling post from A_F that tosses around a few insults and contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion - check.
You missed Ironblade demonstrating he didn't bother to read the thread our couldn't process anything that contradicts his position. -
Quote:There are three examples in this thread where the people told you they left themOriginally Posted by Ironblade
I would question how you know when "flippers leave a niche". In point of fact, you can only know if YOU leave a niche. You don't actually know what other people are doing. I suspect that you see a drop in prices and ASSUME that flippers have left that item and take it as confirmation of your beliefs, even though there is no actual proof as to what has been going on.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Misaligned
Hi AF - Clearly you once again have NOTHING to offer the conversation...
Please continue.
Prediction:
Sometime in the next week AF will post something meaningless with lots of words that try to be insulting, but fall amazingly short.
Btw, if your only intention is to come here and pick a fight with Goat, the door is ------> that way. If your only intention is to come here and pick a fight with me... you've got a long way to go. But good luck to you.
I was under the impression you were picking fight with everyone who thought your experiment was shoddy work, and your conclusions didn't follow.
I will give you credit. That "HI" thread was a thing of beauty, not since H. Ross Perot have I seen such a public meltdown. -
Quote:There is no anti market regulars here. If you feel I aimed my post at you please accept my apologiesOriginally Posted by Camper
I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding what Another_Fan's point is, beyond disliking what he/she perceives to be the groupthink of the market regulars.
Correct if I'm wrong here, but are you saying that people can and do work common salvage for profit on a regular basis? Or is there some other point I am missing? Besides the anti-"market regulars" content of the posts, which I can very clearly see.
Edit and to be more explanatory: When merits were introduced there were many people who wined loudly "If only the devs would listen to people who knew how things actually work". The "People who knew how things work" were of course them. The problem was these people would make endless suggestions that made things better for them. If you read their positions with any objectivity it jumped out at you and hit you with a sledge hammer. What is the upshot ? Lost opportunities for the game to get better. We now have 5 ? currencies instead of just one. We have a messed up reward system that will never go away for TFs another messed up one for the alignment system. -
Alternate explanation: Hero Villain merits are the developers way of admitting that they screwed up merits and merit rewards. Its their way to both fix things and funnel people into paying for going rogue.
The problem with regular merits was that the people who can run TFs fast overwhelmingly dominate the statistics. They run them faster and more often. This screws over the people who can't blitz them, and it really screws over the people who occasionally fail TFs.
The developers also have a real bias to putting in new things instead of fixing old ones.
Result: We have a new kind of merit, that you get at a very limited rate. The new merits don't depend on skill just persistence. You can get half of one a day on all the characters you want to make the effort on.
You can also add me to the column of people upset about this during beta. The tip missions are incredibly easier than task forces, can be soloed, teamed or multi boxed easily, run at -1x0 difficulty, yet they still give better rewards than the best task force teams can get. -
Quote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
I think there was debate about that. Certainly I don't think Another_Fan believed it. But whether it was true on average wasn't actually relevant to me, because selling expensive stuff (which I only recall hitting 250M, but close enough) was faster return on average, even if it was lower average return on inf/merits (which I think it likely was not).
On the original random roll, rolling merits was measured as being as roughly 1k/merit less profitable than just buying a level 25 LotG global. That was with the LotG global being valued in the 70 million range at the time.
Using other procs at that time that was cut in half. I didn't go into it more, because quite frankly demolishing an argument on the boards is nice, not destroying a profit center was nicer.
That was my point on the rolling vs purchase. There was absolutely zero risk premium built into the roll and you had a very good chance of getting junk.Quote:I think the problem with the random roll approach was that the really expensive stuff was comparatively rare. Most of the average value, whatever it was, was tied up in things that sold for low or modest amounts. There were a handful of the total list of max level Pool C/D recipes that sold for (comparatively) extremely high prices, and those prices were high enough that these recipes did a lot to raise the average while not being all that common to get as drops. That meant your odds of hitting (or exceeding) the average on a short run were low. It was more valuable to me, in terms of faster gratification, to spend my merits on the best inf/merit ratio items I could find and sell them. -
Quote:Come on Uber that was exactly the conventional wisdom till Gamemaster ?? Outlined his technique, and even then Goat and his cronies would regularly beat people over the head with the you can't sell above the equilibrium price and make a profit rubric. That went on until it was plain the way he defined the equilibrium price was "The highest price you could sell at and still make a profit"Originally Posted by UberGuy
That's never been the conventional wisdom. Just about any time this topic gets any lengthy discussion, I try to mention that someone with a seemingly very firm grasp of "real world" economics tried this and showed it was possible. It took trial and error, and he eventually made a lot of money doing it with the right thing and the right time.
Doing this with Ceramic Armor Plates (or any high-level common tech salvage) would normally be incredibly risky. The supply rate on those is normally immense. When the rate of resupply on the market is high, the only way to reduce risk is to maintain a serious gap in the price you're paying to buy up the supply and the price you're selling at, and doing that leaves a ton of room for savvy buyers or other flippers to buy your stuff instead. If you don't do that, you end up paying ever-increasing prices in order to control the supply, which eats into your profits. The longer you try to control supply, the greater your risk that an escalating buy price will leave you in control of more stock than you sold at a point where you don't keep up with incoming supply by monitoring your bid stacks and keeping your buying pipelines full. If your bid pipelines stall, you cease to maintain a "corner" on supply, and you risk the going price falling back far enough that you can't move enough of what you've been buying to maintain a profit.
The lower the supply rate of something, the more likely you are to be able to stay on top of "cornering" supply, because it's less time and market slot intensive to manage the buying side of things. Even if other people get involved and start shrinking your profit margins through competition, a low supply rate means your bid pipelines probably never stall. You are in full control of when to bail out. It's not a guarantee you won't lose your shirt, but it makes it a whole lot less likely.
Of all the market items there are, I believe that high-level tech commons have a ratio of loss risk to labor investment so much larger than so many other ways to use the market to make money, it doesn't make sense for people to do it very often. That certainly doesn't mean it can't happen.
If you look at the price range and volatility in the items that are being manipulated, there is no way under heaven you can say the manipulation decreased volatility or even did much to insure supply.
Just look at common salvage just after the market merge, the manipulated items like luck charms and alchemical silvers were both more available and cheaper. You didn't see 100k ranges between the patient buy price and the buy it now price in alchemical silver.
Ceramic Armor Plates are another example. Before the the manipulation the buy it now price was whatever you felt like paying, the supply as many as you wanted. During I think I saw one sell for half a million and there were as little as 75 listed. Now 265 for sale no bids.
I am not saying you are taking the position that the flipper magically brings a market into existence. Its just one more piece of the "Conventional Wisdom, or the Revealed Wisdom of Nethergoat" this thread is putting to rest. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Misaligned
Man who says something couldn't be done gives a lesson in how to do it
TL/DR Misaligned talks about something he said couldn't be done wouldn't be profitable, ignores the fact that the people who did it told him the exact opposite and comes to the conclusion he was right all along. -
So predictable
So predictable it was predicted
Quote:Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Welcome to the boards Alkirin.
Here are a few observations to make your stay more pleasant.
A)Flipping doesn't affect anything is a matter of faith not a matter to have a discussion about. Like many religious teachings it has moved over time. The original was flippers don't raise prices. The current, I believe is , raising prices on common salvage isn't profitable enough to be fun ?
B) The market boards exhibit confirmation bias
My belief is sooner or later someone will present the sun rising in the east as proof that flipping doesn't affect the game.
C) Examples that run afoul of any of the above are likely to be dismissed. I haven't looked at spirit thorns today, but Alchemical Silver looks to have been driven into the stratosphere, and ceramic armor plates are 100% being manipulated either that or everyone just decided to pay the same amount that is 40 times the old price, and a few people decided to pay 400 times the old price.
D) If you are talking about these things and Nethergoat isn't insulting you, you aren't saying anything interesting and are likely wrong.
Let me see Goat being insulting: Check, we even gained the bonus of Misaligned demonstrating a persecution complex and accusing the people who disagreed with him of having an organized party.
Yes Misaligned we do have a party, we meet on Wednesdays. The first half of the meeting we argue over who gets to wear the fez, the rest we spend figuring out how to hate the market.
Market regulars displaying extreme confirmation bias : Check. The irony of the regulars demanding proof when the origin was beyond expectations. +points to this thread for going above and beyond the call.
Counter examples dismissed when presented: Check
Edit: I missed the "Put up or Shut up. You're not right so I am not wrong" digression. -
Quote:Oh great, now I have a party ?Originally Posted by Misaligned
Coming from the guy who can't even seem to attribute the correct "evils" to the right person, I'll say this:
omglol
Still waiting for your evidence. You claimed there was tons of it. Let's see some?
Or is this like your claims that you have opinions that aren't just toting the party line?
Sorry Senator I am not now nor have I ever been a communist. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Misaligned
WOOOSH !!!
The sound of this all going over Misaligned's head
Hey Misaligned, its not flippers are EBIL, its not about patience, its about you making arguments that even young earth creationists would think are weak.