Arcanaville

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Also, you are leting out buffs and debuffs (if i did that id have 2 variables only on my equation) and if you do that you are forgetting about one of the many issues of def, how a simple acc buff of the enemy can easily negate your def entirely.


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Mine explicitly leaves out tohit buffs because Statesman's OP doesn't explicitly mention them, although I do mention in my post how to extend the formula to deal with them if the devs elect to extend this idea to tohit buffs (it isn't necessary that they do: there are alternate methods for dealing with tohit buffs, and there are certain issues with using this method for dealing with them).

The one I describe explicitly scales defense to deal with Rank and Level, which is what the original post claims the update will do, and it explicitly mentions a +5 cutoff mechanism, something the OP suggests might happen.

Its unlikely that the issue of high tohit buffs would slip my mind. And the nature of the formula Tohit * (1 - Def/50) is moderately familiar to me: I discussed it at length in my Acc v Def and Elusivity threads a year ago.

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And on that line here is yet anoter theory!!! So far, based on a few comments by Geko on how accuracy works, I think accuracy works arround a base index just like Brawl Indexes work. This index seems to be 1 =75%. You may notice he has in ocations refered to Accuracy as 1.0 while its 75%. So this would mean a minnion has arround 0.6667.


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To the best of my knowledge he has never done that: what he's done is sometimes refer to Base Accuracy of the Player (which is Base To Hit = 75%) and sometimes refer to Base Accuracy of a Power (which is 1.0) with the ambiguous term "Accuracy" which can be confusing to people reading.

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Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?

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Good point, but it really doesn't. It reduces the risk, but you've still got more risk fighting a +4 than you do fighting a +3. The +4 will hit harder, have longer lasting status effects, etc. when he does hit. This is the inverse of than what damage resistance sets get today - for them, a +4 is more dangerous than a +3 because they'll get hit more often.

In theory, I like this change. It's nice to see a good number of improvements being considered. I'll withhold judgement on whether it'll work in practice until we see it on Test.

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Just to clarify, right now a +5 hits a resistance set more often than a +0, *and* hits that set harder, and therefore a resistance set takes more damage from a +5 than a +0. The same is true for a defense set, but while the damage increase per hit is the same for both, the relative amount they get hit more often is much higher for the defense set than the resistance set.

In other words, both might take 50% more damage per hit, but it might be the case that the resistance set is getting hit 50% more often, while the defensive set is getting hit 100% more often. *That* is the source of the disparity between defense and resistance when we say "defense doesn't scale with level." A similar statement can be made to describe the difference between minions and bosses, instead of +0s and +5s.

Whatever this patch does, it won't eliminate the risk in going after higher level or higher rank foes. All other elements of increased rank or level would still be in effect, including higher damage, and (in the case of higher levels) the purple patch itself, which reduces the effectiveness of your offensive capabilities (which slows down and extends the fight, increasing the damage you therefore take during the fight, and presumably putting you in more jeopardy).

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Clearly, they intend to scale things for bosses vs minions same as +5s vs +0s.

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There's no need to refer me to the original post, which I read, thanks -- though I will note that I used Bosses versus Minions as an example of where a multiplication system for Def can go wrong because I happen to know the base tohits for those off the top of my head, compared to varying level mobs.

I will also say that intent sure doesn't equal reality all the time.

Also, technically, a percentage reduction in tohit does work equally well on all mobs, you know. You're still getting the same percentage reduction of the mob's Acc, even though the final effects (in terms of absolute Acc reduction) vary. I think we're just reading the post differently.

In any event, it's all speculation until it hits test.

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I was responding to this:

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My major concern with this change is that if it's implemented by changing Def from a flat accuracy reduction into a percentage reduction in accuracy (which would scale with level), Defense sets are actually getting dinged again.


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There are ways to do it which don't hurt defense sets with regard to rank, and since Statesman says it will work for both rank and level, I'm prepared to assume that whatever scheme they've cooked up, it does exactly that until I'm shown otherwise - although I share your apprehension that it might *not* work in precisely the way Statesman thinks it does.

See, see. Lookit, Darkstar, Pilcrow is doing it to you also. Go get him.

Wait, actually he did it to me, too.

::Shakes fist in the air::

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See my previous post for a potentially simpler way to get much more exact defense stability with level and rank.

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How can 5 paragraphs be simpler than a simple formula with 4 variables?

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Math intimidates people in a way that grammar never will.

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I've finally been accused of not using enough formulas! This one goes up on the refrigerator!

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My major concern with this change is that if it's implemented by changing Def from a flat accuracy reduction into a percentage reduction in accuracy (which would scale with level), Defense sets are actually getting dinged again.

Consider an SR toggle power that right now is 12.5% Def. Against an even con minion, that's actually a 25% reduction in its tohit (37.5/50). Against an even con boss, that's a 17% reduction in its tohit. If the devs simply transfer the current percentages over without adjusting them for such a system, you're taking at worst a 50% reduction in Defense. Under such a system, a minion's tohit would be 43.75 (50 * .875, instead of 50 - 12.5 = 37.5), and that boss would have a tohit of 65.63 (75 * .875, instead of 75 - 12.5 = 62.5). In fact, if the percentages aren't increased, your defense actually will scale *more* poorly as mobs go up in level, unless their base tohit is over 100.

In order to adjust the percentages properly, they'll need to make this change while simultaneously deciding the maximum level of mitigation that Def can provide; I think doubling all Def values would be a good place to start. Obviously, they can't be kept where they are now under this system.

I'm sure they've looked at all this already if the above system is what they're going to use, but if not, perhaps this can serve as a reminder. The devs, no offense, are not immune to the law of unintended consequences -- such as Parry letting you deflect shotgun blasts (Lethal) and Insulation Shield shielding you from some Psionic attacks (Ranged).

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I refer you to this specific quote from the OP:

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Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion.


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Clearly, they intend to scale things for bosses vs minions same as +5s vs +0s.

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How can 5 paragraphs be simpler than a simple formula with 4 variables?

If you run my formula you will see that what you explained in 5 paragraphs was covered into the formula already.

Test the excel file with the numbers you just used and you will get exactly the same result you explained with 25% def. Its not more exact, its the same thing, only I gave a formula anyone can use to check any value against diferent enemies.


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Scaling defense buff = Current Defense * RankToHitBuff% * LevelToHitBuff%


One equation, three variables.


Mine and yours diverge under two circumstances. The first is if and when a villain group's even level minions ever have intrinsicly higher base tohit than 50%, separate from any actual tohit buffs. Second, by separating level and rank factors, it points to a possible mechanism for leveling off the defense scaling buff past +5, whereas yours doesn't distinguish between the two.

Someone is probably going to say something about the fact that there aren't any villain groups with minion base tohit anything other than 50%, and even if there were, you could simply look at that as an intrinsic tohit buff. Actually, *assuming* that they did anything remotely close to this, the possibility of having villain groups with intrinsicly higher base tohit in the future jumps dramatically; long time followers of defense and accuracy discussions might guess why, but beyond that I'd rather let that one lie for now.

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Aw crap! I JUST deleted my 29 spine/sr 2 weeks ago! Stupid reverse pod vampire people didn't invade soon enough.

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I hear next week they'll be announcing that when you impale a villain you'll be able to bring the body back to a store still on the spine and sell it for salvage.

See my previous post for a potentially simpler way to get much more exact defense stability with level and rank.

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We're tweaking with toggle dropping...mostly decreasing its overall effect.


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"Decreasing its overall effect" does not sound to me like "will happen much less often." It sounds like toggle dropping might get mechanically changed somewhat, perhaps to adding a way to debuff the strength of toggles or temporarily suppressing them, instead of dropping them altogether, which would probably be a lot more fair and fun in PvP overall.

Its all very simple really. States rolled himself a new SR scrapper. Then he gave himself a jetpack to get around the Hollows. Then he decided he wanted some nifty throwing knives.

Now he's approaching the twenties and noticing the bosses in Rugged missions hit kinda often...


Okay, so the pod-people explanation probably makes more sense. Still, with *my* explanation, he might've accidentally missed the fortune teller mission and need flashback...

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Now you fight a +5 boss, who has about 95% base tohit (its really just about that, actually). You flip on CJ. For CJ to be just as effective, it should reduce the chance to hit to 96% of its original value, or about 91%. CJ, in effect, is worth about 5 percentage points of defense against a +5 boss, 2.5 percentage points of defense against a +0 boss, but it always has the same 4 percent mitigation benefit. In effect, CJ "works equally well" against the +0 boss and the +5 boss (currently, CJ's effectiveness drops from about 4% against +0 bosses to about 2.5% against +5 bosses).

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I agree that it will probably be something like this. Similar to how Resist works (100% - Resist value). It may, however, become harder to "bottom out" the ToHit value, but that may be intentional.

For example, right now if an enemy has a 75% chance to hit you, and you have a 30% Defense bonus, their ToHit would be 45%, right? In your version, their ToHit would drop to 70% of 75%, or 52.5%.


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No, in my version (well, its a version, not so much mine) if the foe's *base* tohit chance is 75% (which basically means he's a turret, an AV, or a pet), and you have 30% defense, then your net to hit is still 45%. The only difference is the *level difference*.


Without getting into the sticky math, if the tohit level bonus is some number, like +10% (i.e. +1 minion has base tohit of 55% - 50% * (1.1) ) then whenever you face a +1 minion, your actual defense will also scale up by 10%. So 25% defense becomes 27.5% defense. Basically, we're trying to keep the ratio of Defense/NetToHit constant.

Similarly, instead of looking at Bosses as having +15% tohit, its better to look at it as bosses have 30 percent higher tohit; i.e. 50% * (1.3). In that case, defense will be 30% higher when facing a boss. These two effects are multiplicative, not additive. So when facing a +4 boss, 25% defense will become 30% higher due to facing a boss, and then 40% higher *than that* due to facing a +4. 25% * 1.3 * 1.4 = 45.5%. Does it work?

25% verses even minion is 50% net mitigation (25/50)

45.5% verses +4 boss (91%) is still 50% net mitigation.


Caveat: my level scaling approximation is that +1 villains have 10% higher tohit. That's pretty close, but I believe others have determined that its slightly less than that, and I don't have the precise numbers handy. But the principle is that whatever they are, plug them in and it should work.


How this will "cut off" at +6 is anyone's guess. Potentially, it might be as simple as capping off the defense adjustment at +5. So if you are fighting a +6 boss, your defense will be buffed upward to Defense * 1.3 * 1.5, even though the villains have been scaled up to 1.6 tohit. Hopefully, it isn't a more drastic thing like terminating the scaling altogether.


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Of course, this is all speculation and probably a waste of time.

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Probably. But at least it might prevent people from taking too much or too little away from this announcement. Its a change, and it sounds like the net effect of the change is a good one, but beyond that, it comes down to the numbers, which I hope they share with us, because if I have to watch brawls for thirty seven hours to reverse engineer them just because they want to keep their formulas mysterious, I'm probably going to have an aneurism.

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OK i have two theories of how it may work. The two posible formulas in my head are either:

a) (ToHit + buff - debuff) - DEF/50 * (ToHit + buff - debuff)
b) (ToHit - DEF/50 * ToHit) + buff - debuff

I made a small excel sheet with these forumlas so you can see the results with diferent numbers of enemy acc, debufs and buffs.

It is loaded right now with standard PvP numbers, that would be, 50 to hit chance, and +16.5 acc (thats what you get in pvp from one even ACC SO), with no debuffs.

You can find the Excel file here

You will notice it wont mean that you will floor a lt as easily as an AV with this formula, but they do get close with the same number (an AV gets to 7.6 acc with a 45% def)

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A mechanistic change like this wouldn't stop at +5. So either Statesman was being cagey (defense will be just as effective up to +5 ... because it will be so in *all* cases), or the change has to revolve around altering the tohit bonuses due to rank, and the tohit bonuses explicitly granted by the purple patch (although technically, those level bonuses are not really due to the purple patch; I'm pretty sure they predate it).

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" For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense. "

Umm this change means this : Im a blaster. I go fight a +5 boss with a 95% chance to hit me (its more than that but clmaped a5% so 95 works when not considering debuffs). I die. Now I turn on combat jumping, and that boss has a 57.5% chance to hit me instead of the 95%.


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It *might* mean that. But alternate interpretation is this:

You fight a +0 boss, that has 65% base accuracy. Flip on combat jumping, and CJ gives 2.5% defense, reducing tohit to 62.5%. Overall tohit drops to 96% of the original value (and equivalently, CJ is offering 4% total mitigation).

Now you fight a +5 boss, who has about 95% base tohit (its really just about that, actually). You flip on CJ. For CJ to be just as effective, it should reduce the chance to hit to 96% of its original value, or about 91%. CJ, in effect, is worth about 5 percentage points of defense against a +5 boss, 2.5 percentage points of defense against a +0 boss, but it always has the same 4 percent mitigation benefit. In effect, CJ "works equally well" against the +0 boss and the +5 boss (currently, CJ's effectiveness drops from about 4% against +0 bosses to about 2.5% against +5 bosses).

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As far as /regen, I thought the +DMG from +Rank was essentially a counter to /regen? They are also victimized by the +acc from +Rank. Big difference between a mob with a 65 % acc versus one with a 95%, which is essentially the diff between a +0 boss and a +5 boss against a /regen. I don't see how a /regen will compete if that same +5 is hitting with only 65% acc?


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I wouldn't hazard a guess as to how the devs are going to implement this, but I offer some possible options in my OP. But you're absolutely right that if SRs literally see *zero* accuracy increase from +0 to +5, but everyone else does, then the balance swings to SR, because now instead of a tohit buff that hits SR harder than everyone else, now we'd have a tohit buff that only hits everyone else.

However, the key is the wording of defense "working as well" as before. Strictly speaking, the measure of how well defense works is how much damage it mitigates, in percentage terms. For defense to be working "as well as before" its *percentage* mitigation should remain the same. If the devs have done that, then in actual fact, +5s will hit SR more often than +0s, but just in a manner proportional to how much more often they tend to hit non-defensive sets. If a +0 has base 50% tohit, and a +5 has about 75% tohit (its a bit smaller than that), then the +5 is hitting 50% more often than the +0. For an SR scrapper with 25% defense, net tohit of a +0 is 25%. a +5 "should" hit the SR scrapper 37.5% of the time, about 50% more often. *That* would be balanced (which is why I keep harping on using accuracy buffs to boost higher level and higher rank villains: thats exactly how they work).


Regen is incredibly sticky: there is no direct formula that says "X defense = Y regen" or anything remotely close. How this affects regen would be more complex if regen is changing, but it appears it isn't. Its really a question of how this swings the balance point between SR and regen for higher level foes, which is tricky, and highly dependent on how they elected to implement this. But this much is certain: the way regeneration works pretty much guarantees that low levels of even con minions are never a serious threat to regen. It has to do with how regen currently scales: it doesn't. So it has to be very strong against the very weak given the current limitations of the game engine. It would be almost like if the devs had to give us perma-elude to deal with heroic missions, because the boss at the end always had base 100% tohit. That's regen. Scaling regen is a much more complex problem than fixing the scaling of defense. But since the defense problem is that defense didn't scale *up*, that was the problem more people complained about: admittedly, few regens are likely to complain about their regeneration not scaling *down* correctly to even level minions.

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Regeneration and resistance are both just as effective against +5s as +0s. Why should defense break down?


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Not exactly. Damage resistance prevents X% of incoming damage, but that damage is a heck of a lot greater from a +5 than it is from a +0. Similarly, regeneration is only good if the rate of incoming damage is equal to or less than your regen rate. Again, higher level enemies do more damage...


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A +5 hits a defense set a heck of a lot harder also. If there was no tohit bonus for level at all, then a +1 that hits about 10% harder would do 10% more damage to a defense set on average, and 10% more damage to a resistance set on average. We'd calculate the net mitigation of the resistance set to be the same as before, and the net mitigation of the defense set to be the same as before. That's what's means when we say resistance scales. Its not that resistance sets take the same amount of damage from a +5 as a +0, its that the percentage amount of damage it resists is the same. Similarly, without the tohit increase, a defensive set would deflect, or avoid, the same fraction of attacks for +0 as +5, which would mean that defense was just as effective. A +5 would still be more dangerous, because it would hit harder, but it would hit both defensive sets and resistive sets equally harder.


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I do agree that if a power gives you +X% defense, it should always give +X% defense, however, higher level enemies should have a greater chance of hitting you. So if an even con minin has a 50% chance to hit, a +1 should have like 52% chance to hit, or something...


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There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.

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And I have to ask, won't /SR out perform other sets if we have the same defense against +5's?!?


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Regeneration and resistance are both just as effective against +5s as +0s. Why should defense break down?

Since the devs have stated that they balanced defense and resistance based on their performance against even level minions, it only makes logical sense that defense should remain just as effective against higher level villains if the intent is to keep them balanced in higher level settings, particularly big teams and higher slider missions. If anything, this needs to be extended to other areas of scaling tohit, like rank.

If SR becomes overpowered with this change, then in effect *everyone* is, but even so, at least everyone will have the same basic performance across the normal range of villains you're likely to see from heroic solo missions to 8 person invincible missions - minus the LTs, Bosses, and AVs that pop up in those missions, for which SR will still tend to underperform (assuming you believe the devs when they say that the sets are balanced at the even level minion point).

A lot hinges, though, on what is meant by "same defense" as I indicated in my previous post. Once we have a better handle on how that was implemented, we'll have a better handle on calculating what the net effect is, to see if its balanced or not.

My own testing shows that in particular SR and invuln are surprisingly balanced in mitigation if you restrict yourself to looking at only even level minions, which was presumably always the devs goal. You could make an argument both ways at this point. Its the level and rank tohit buffs that primarily unbalance the two in PvE: if this defense scaling effect correctly nullifies those tohit buffs in a proportional way, that would bring all four scrapper secondaries closer in mitigation than they have ever been (although, I should add the disclaimer that I'm talking about comparing the absolute best SR can do, verses only pretty darned good invuln and regen builds, not their absolute best effort).

Finally, a reason for defense-based sets to cheer. Too bad we don't have the foggiest idea what it will actually do, but the fact that they are doing anything at all opens the door to tweaking it, adjusting it, extending it to other areas of high tohit madness. I'm hopeful this might be the end game in balancing defense and resistance once and for all.

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To reitterate my post here:

Kind of raises more questions actually.

I thought scaling DEF was promised to the Tank AT, not just certain sets...

And why scrappers? Not to be rude, but their "role" is not defensive... perhaps because they ARE changing the way DEF works globally?

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Scaling means at least two different things within the context of talking about tanks. Invincibility is scaling defense, but it scales with number of foes. In this case, we're talking about the fact higher level villains have higher base tohit, which is effectively an unavoidable defense debuff. That lack of scaling with level has serious consequences for any AT that relies on defense, such as Ice tanks and SR scrappers.

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Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

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This is very interesting. I'm curious, though, as to how this will work exactly. Since this pertains to everyone who has defense, the implication is that even if all you have is hover, you will be effectively immune from the scaling tohits of higher level foes. Something sounds amiss there in terms of how the bonus will work. Its probably very important to define what you mean exactly by "your defense powers will work equally well..." If my SR scrapper has 25% defense, she mitigates about half the hits of a minion, with base 50% tohit. Does this mean that against a +1 minion, net overall tohit will remain 25% (i.e. the tohit bonus is ignored), or does that mean my defense scales up to about 27.5% (to be about half of the new tohit of about 55%), or something else entirely? Could it be that the purple patch has been amended to swap tohit bonuses for accuracy bonuses, at least out to +5? That would certainly work.

Are there any plans to extend this to the tohit bonuses of LTs, Bosses, and AVs? AVs, after all, have a +25% tohit relative to minions, which is effectively erasing SR defenses completely. They are not, in general, completely unresistable.


Also, the really big thing was tohit buffs, like player tohit buffs in PvP, and insane tohit buffs like DE Quartz Eminators. Will this be extended to include these, or is a completely different change coming to address these?


Been a long time waiting on this one, States; thanks for continuing to look for a solution, and I'm looking forward to picking it apart real soon

Another addition until I find the time to update with all the additions and corrections: according to this thread pohsyb confirms that accuracy inspirations are straight tohit buffs. Which makes sense in that they are there to counter luck inspirations. But not so good for defense sets, since not only are most defense sets comparable in strength to about one luck, they are also counterable by about one insight.

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Even more currently, 50%.

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Officially, its still 75% base tohit but with a +25% defense buff against PvP attacks. However, for all intents and purposes, that is mathematically indistinguishable from an adjustment in player tohit down to 50%.

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Also, no power or effect I'm aware of stops either dull pain or reconstruction from working under any circumstances.

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-regen stops you from regeneration HP automaticly. weather your regen is, example not the real numbers, 10 hp per sec or 30 hp per sec -regen makes it 0 hp per sec. Same with recovery. no if you use a self heal or are healed by another player -regen has no effect on those powers because the are not +regen they are +hp.


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That's correct, which is why the actual effect of -regen on a regeneration scrapper is not necessarily the same apples to apples effect that -DEF has on an SR scrapper. The regeneration set has heals that are not affected by -regen, and it has dull pain which is also not affected by -regen debuffs.


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and you can't stack a defense debuff below 5% deffense because they way accuracy and defense works. You allways have a 5% chance you will miss a target regardless of how much acc you have. or how much you have debuffed their defence.

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That's not correct. If a minion has a base 50% chance to hit me, and I have 25% defense, net tohit is 25%. I can be easily debuffed to -25% defense, which would make the net tohit now 75% - higher than if I had no defense at all. ETCs were getting virtual autohit on SR just by stacking two quicksands.

The actual tohit can't go above 95% or below 5%, but defense can be debuffed far below zero. Regeneration cannot be debuffed to less than zero.

Resistance too can be debuffed below zero (I believe it was once stated that the resistance floor was -400%), but because of the way resistance and resistance debuffs work, its a much, much more difficult thing to do, unless you are a defender debuffing a player in PvP combat and you have a lot of friends helping you.

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Hey.. I am primarily a regen. if I am hit with a -regen my regen STOPS.. it isn't debuffed. That should give you an idea of who I might cheer for.

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Defense debuffs can be stacked (relatively easily) so that net overall defense actually goes negative. That would be comparable to regeneration debuffs becoming a DoT when stacked. A lot of times, when defense is "debuffed" its not just "stopped," its actually worse than stopped.

Also, no power or effect I'm aware of stops either dull pain or reconstruction from working under any circumstances.