Zombie Man

On the Subject of PvP Balance Between Heroes and Villains:

If getting certain Powersets is going to 'create balance' in PvP, then it's a false balance. Ideally all Powersets should have a chance to shine at PvP. (OK, so maybe some thematic sets are gimped from the get-go in PvP because they deal well with AI but not real I.) If the situation is that the majority of all Powersets are 'weak' in PvP, then the answer is not to give everyone access to the handful of good Powersets, but to make more of the weak ones good ones.

If we give Villains Empathy and the other 'must have' Powersets that rule in PvP, then the Villain PvPers and Hero PvPers will be indistinguishable in PvP mechanics-wise. Fine, I don't have a problem with that, but let's face it, that's not real balance if only five powersets appear in high-end PvP.

Eventually, almost all the Powersets will be shared in some way or the other. NorCal has dropped Cryptic's insistence that ATs have signature Powersets and that certain powers are 'heroic' while others are 'villainous' (distinctions I always disagreed with). Also, with CO 'archetypeless system'* coming down in the pike as competition to CoH/V, NorCal has an even greater incentive to make character creation as diverse as possible.

But once Villains get their hands on the uber PvP Sets, it still won't really balance PvP. The cries of "The Devs hate Villains" will change to "The Devs hate Electric; The Devs hate Plant; etc...."

Balance must come from buffing the weak PvP sets (in PvP) and/or nerfing the uber PvP sets (in PvP). Not from proliferation of powersets which will eventually come about anyway.



* I believe the CO 'archetypeless system' is a myth. They've already created 'purchase classes' wherein powers outside one's class cost more. Those who try to be the jack-of-all-trades tank-mage will wind up with the same build (Kheldian-like). Everyone else will max out the purchasing power in their class creating de facto archetypes. But, this is a wild tangent.

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I think tanks should get Shadow Dweller instead of Cloak of Darkness, but other than that a straight port over from the scrapper version should be fine.

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Oops, I typed the wrong power while tabbing back and forth. Thanks for saying what I meant to say.

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I am with you!!!
Enough with the dark armor already.
Why would a tanker need stealth.
Stupid we need aggro.
Why would we sneak around like cowards.
Give me Electric Now!!!!

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You realize that Stalkers, because they have Hide, don't get the Brute/Stalker's Cloak of Darkness, instead, they get Dark Regeneration.

So, maybe, the Tanks will have Dark Regeneration instead of Cloak of Darkness.

This is why it's best to wait until Test to comment.

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Thorny assault = Spines..

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One is for a Melee Class, the other is a Melee/Ranged Hybrid Class.

One has four ranged attacks, the other two.

One has Taunt. The other doesn't.

They're as alike as Traps and Devices.

When Doms get Devices Assault and Blasters get Thorn Manipulation, then we can take them both off the list.

Un'fixed.'

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Well even though I knew what the sets were I have to say I'm still disappointed that Scrappers are not getting a punching set. After, what 4 years, of people practically begging for a pure punching set for scrappers the devs finally have a chance to correct this huge oversight in their original design, and they don't.

Even if I like some of the other stuff getting ported this whole thing is 'massive fail'.

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Which punching set in game would you have given them? Just out of curiousity.

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SuperStrength. It's the iconic "go punch them" set. A separate "street fighting" set might have been better, but based on what Castle said, that's nowhere on the horizon.

And for those saying "give it a try"...I need to try Fiery Melee to tell it isn't a punching powerset?

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In the past, when people asked for punching sets, they were usually told "We've got SuperStrength and Dark Melee!" To which the punchers turned up their noses and for various reasons poo-pooed those sets as punching sets.

So, even if SS was ported over, I doubt that would have satisfied the vocal punching fans.

But even with a Boxing Set, there will be those who cry it's not street fighting. And with a Street Fighting Set, there will be those who cry it's not a Boxing Set.

The Devs can't win here.

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Thugs/Storm = ... uh. Ok. Ya got me.

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Outright [censored] Chaos waiting to be unleashed?

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You mean like the Outcasts who have fire, ice, earth, and electric powers?

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I mean sure Earth is good but its kinda... ugly...

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I've wanted to change the way earth-control looks for so long...

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Just compared to Plant and Therm is so ugly. I guess thats why I wanted Ill more, its not so visually hideous.

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If villains get Illusion, most likely it will wind up looking like Malaise's Dark Illusion.

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Heroes
Illusion Control

Empathy

Archery

Broadsword

Katana

Ice Melee

Ice Armor

Devices

Psychic Blast

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Villains

Energy Aura

Ninjutsu

Ninja Blade

Electric Armor

Electric Melee

Traps

Poison

Thorny Assault



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Fixed

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Thanks for catching those, Big Soto

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Fixt again!

Dominator Assault and Blaster Manipulation sets are matched in regard to Fire, Ice, Energy, Electricity and Mental/Psy. The differences are that Doms have Thorny Assault while Blasters have Devices.

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Well even though I knew what the sets were I have to say I'm still disappointed that Scrappers are not getting a punching set. After, what 4 years, of people practically begging for a pure punching set for scrappers the devs finally have a chance to correct this huge oversight in their original design, and they don't.

Even if I like some of the other stuff getting ported this whole thing is 'massive fail'.

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There is no "Punching Set" to port over to Scrappers in this round of Powerset Proliferation. A "Punching Set" is a brand new set and we don't know exactly what any of the new Sets will be (besides the Villain EATs) or when they'll show up. There's been Dev comments (not confirmations) that a 'Streetfighter Set' is 'in the works' (which may mean 'didn't pan out').

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Being we are in April in 4 days, I don't see 3 issues a year happening for '08.

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I'm sure many said the same thing for '07.

Issue 9: May 1st, 2007

Issue 10: July 24th, 2007

Issue 11: November 28th, 2007

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True, but when were these in closed beta? Im pretty sure i9 was the biggest of the 3, and it went into closed beta in Feb?

This is a big issue with new powersets for different hero/villain types, which means a lot of testing on the training room.

I dont see more alpha testing, weeks of closed beta, then weeks of open beta for i12 hit may 1, maybe end of May. Unless they just remove powers from At's during alpha/closed beta testing wihtout FULL on community testing in open beta, Im calling it i12 = June.

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By the time I13 and I14 come around, the new hires will be up to speed which should keep eveyrthing on track.

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The charts are a little hard to understand.

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What is even harder to understand is why this information would require a spreadsheet at all...

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All explained in the thread to which you are posting.

Blaster

* New Primary - Psychic Blast
* New Secondary - Mental Manipulation

Corruptor

* New Primary - Electrical Blast
* New Secondary - Storm Summoning

Controller

* New Primary - Plant Control
* New Secondary - Thermal Radiation

Dominator

* New Primary - Earth Control
* New Secondary - Electricity Manipulation

Defender:

* New Primary - Cold Domination
* New Secondary - Ice Blast

Mastermind:

* New Secondary - Storm Summoning

Brute:

* New Primary - Battle Axe
* New Primary - War Mace
* New Secondary - Super Reflexes

Stalker:

* New Primary - Electric Melee
* New Secondary - Electric Armor

Tank:

* New Primary - Dark Armor
* New Secondary - Dark Melee

Scrapper:

* New Primary - Fiery Melee
* New Secondary - Fiery Aura

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Tomorrow....

Darn it...

As for the story... Bleh.

Sorry. I like Doc Brainstorm, but I don't like the game mythos telling me that my powers are the result of this or that. First in Web of Arachnos we are told that Statesman basically loosed all powers on the world, and now we are told that even natural heroes really aren't, they all have powers because of this "mystical network, an energy based control panel for super power distribution". Add in that we are told that Dr. Brainstorm has bugged ALL invention tables, and that he alone is responsible for creating all the new variations of power sets, and I am just... less than thrilled.

I know, I am taking it too seriously. And I can ignore it for my own storytelling (and I will). But I hate having to ignore the game story to tell my own. Its one of the reasons I dislike playing villains more than heroes, as the stories are more stifling and less fitting to my villains.

*sigh*

Ok, I'm done. I'll go back to waiting for tomorrow, like others in this thread. Thanks for listening.

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It's just a theory. A wizard could have done it.

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Woot, spreadsheets!

I made one too!

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...MK51htyzRw4ZGg

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Nice layout. You are a master of Google Spreadsheet design!

If Dr. Brainstorm appeared in the game, I wonder what his Strike Force would be like...

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It's been a week since the last "marketting packet"!

Give meh moar info!

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New info tomorrow (Thursday), but no guarantee it will be Power Proliferation info.

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Where'd you hear it was tomorrow?

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I read the Community Digest.

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It's been a week since the last "marketting packet"!

Give meh moar info!

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New info tomorrow (Thursday), but no guarantee it will be Power Proliferation info.

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If doms are getting 1 primary and one secondary does that mean that doms are going to get illusion?

Do we get a new Powerset from our respective alternates?

(Brute/Stalker/Tanker/Scrapper)
(Def/Corr)
(Dom/Troller)

or is it more like we get a new powerset from a different AT? I've been asking this and no one wants to answer.

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Already answered in this thread when I said: [ QUOTE ]
1. Blaster and Dominator Secondaries are unique. So, the Devs are going to cobble together a proliferated set for each by mixing and matching powers from other Set Categories.

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Wow, I've never actually played a Controller or Dominator with Mine Control before, Zombie. That must be sweet!

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im in ur base mining your porters


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There are 10 classic ATs, 5 for each faction. Each of the 10 ATs has a Primary and Secondary Set. That's 20 Sets.

Brute Primary is getting 2 proliferated powersets (Mace & Axe). Brute Secondary will still get a proliferated Set.

MM Primary is getting no proliferated powersets (none to proliferate!). MM Secondary will still get a proliferated Set.

So, since Brute Primary is getting 2 and MM primary is getting none and all the rest are getting one, then there will by 20 proliferated Sets.

Now, the proliferation is supposed to be a straight port, although, for balance issues and limitations of certain sets we can expect these changes as a Set is proliferated:

1. Blaster and Dominator Secondaries are unique. So, the Devs are going to cobble together a proliferated set for each by mixing and matching powers from other Set Categories.

2. Stalker sets will have to be modified to include an Assassin Strike power and a Placate power. Similarly, if a Stalker Set is given to another AT, the Assassin Strike and Place will have to replaced by other powers.

3. A Set moving from a Primary to a Secondary position will probably be weakened, and vice versa.

4. Play testing may buff or nerf certain ported powers due to balance concerns.

Why the Chart is Difficult to Read...

Most people are concerned about ATs, and what Powersets belonged to which ATs. And so, they usually create a list of ATs (all the ATs listed just once) and then list the Powersets that can be found in that AT. These AT-centric charts wind up listing the same Powerset several times if it is found in several ATs.

My chart, however, was originally developed to keep track of Powersets and which ATs owned which Powersets. In my chart, Powersets are listed just once, and the ATs which can own those Powersets get listed several times. That's probably why people have trouble reading the charts.

If you look at the first chart, across the top are the Powerset Categories such as Defense, Melee, Blast, etc..... The number next to the Powerset Category is how many Powersets are in that category. Then down the side are a list of ATs. Where the ATs and Powerset Category intersect, I've indicated the Primary and Secondary Powersets for that AT, and the number next to that indicates how many Powersets are available in that Primary and Secondary.

Then, underneath that chart are columnar lists of the Powersets found in the Powerset Category. Each Powerset is listed only once. They are grouped by which ATs 'own' that Powerset. This way, one can see which Powersets are shared by which ATs.

Once you understand that first chart, then go to the second and see where the Powersets have shifted from belonging to one set of ATs to another set of ATs.

If you just want a list of ATs and the new Powersets they get, it's been listed in a simple list above in this thread, as well as about 10 other threads in the forums, and can be found in the text of the Feature Update on the main page of the CoH Website.

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Neutra,

I was able to catch "Ross from Marketing" and here is what he had to say on this issue, he is out of the office for a few weeks celebrating the new heroic arrival of a baby girl.

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Hi there!

Yes, we will definitely announce our own studio logo, and we have made some progress on this, but at the moment it is taking a back seat to Issue 12 and the game itself. Stay tuned!


Ross


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So.....Stay Tuned!

Ex

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ZOMG!! The new CoH catch phrase will be "Stay Tuned" said by a baby girl named Roz!

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Crie Moar Plz!



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Why thank you I will!

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Your tears are delicious! NOM NOM NOM!



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While a hijack, this thread isn't exactly inappropriate for this topic. The devs decided to lead with this and as such, it's a valid point of discussion to consider whether this info was what they should have led with.

Sure LH could come along and tell me, "No you're wrong EG, go away" but that would just be him pulling rank.

And in any event, better to keep this hear than to start a new forum topic.

Less clutter. And besides, there's not much to say here except, "Good night WW, Good work, Sleep well, I'll most likely kill you in the morning."

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So, you recognize it as a hijack and then scattershot several rationalizations why it's still appropriate? To answer:

- Any two things related to the game can be 'connected' to each other, thus making any hijack not a hijack by drawing that connection.

- You know that LH and Ex don't have the time to manually delete every off-topic post. They let ride a lot of forum policy breakers or else they'd have time for nothing else. (Can't wait for the new full-time forum mod to be hired!)

- Off-topic posts mixed in with the actual topic is the true clutter -- it's the very definition of clutter. Every topic in their own thread is actually less clutter.

- False dilemma of congratulating WW or leaving the thread barren of actual content. Congratulating WW is actual content. People asking for clarifications of what's on topic is on topic. The complaints about losing challenging hazard spawns is on topic. That has all happened and is real content. No need to drag in off-topic content to validate this thread.


The problem isn't so much an aside of "wish this was proliferation info" disappointment; it's the vehemence and bitterness and the accusations of either bad-faith or stupidity or incompetence of the Devs that has hijacked this into a topic of our relationship with the Devs. That doesn't belong here.

The Devs aren't your parents, people, and this isn't a sign that they don't love you! (Except for you Villains, I've heard they hate you.)

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Now make Hollows radio missions available so I can get the temp travel powers there instead of having to go to King's Row and I'm sold.

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What he said.

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That's not what we *really* want because then, just like the KR Safeguard, we wouldn't be able to Flahsback to Meg's mission to pick it up again. We want a temp travel power to be in an *arc mission* so that we can replenish it just like villains can replenish theirs. (Another reason why the Devs hate Heroes!)

Wincott's last mission should give a temp travel power, "Thanks for all you've done for me! If you're going to be helping out Flux or venture deeper into the Hollows, you may want some help to get over the Gulch. I've managed to requisition a Jet Pack for you from the PPD."

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while this is all good stuff, just one small concern, with current number of ignious bosses springing up, to get the badge is a bit of a pain, if they are reduced very much then getting the badge will be even more of a pain

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They'll still be in full force deep in the Gulch - big hazzardy spawns. However, around the edge of the Gulch will be the lower level, smaller spawned Igneous taking their 'dirt nap' and will pop up when you get near. Igneous aren't going away or being severely reduced. I'm sure Meg will also give out Igneous one-off missions at your level!