__Goldie__

For the record, Fel, I fully support getting rid of Blaster 30% unresisted damage, and Defender unresisted de-buffs. The reason for their existance is no longer relevant to the game.

And like I said, I don't want to see cages nerfed, I'd just like there to be a way to reactively counter them, like you can everything else in the game. I don't think that's too out of line now that everyone wants to cheese out and bring more and more cages to an 8v8.

Like Omega said, there used to be a "gentleman's rule" about bringing more than one cager to an 8v8 and anyone who did got laughed at and called noobs. Now we're seeing 2 and 4 cager teams and it seems half the community thinks that's just swell, while the other half would like to play the game instead of running around for 10 minutes at a time in their orange disco ball, unable to affect anything.

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Like I said, the only argument I've seen in favor of "doing something" to cage that holds any objective substance is the one that cages have no viable counter, and hopefully the above comments address that clearly enough.

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That's the crux of the matter, and no, your above comments *don't* address that clearly enough.

Every "counter" you suggest is a generic counter that can be applied to any situation and any AT/powerset/player/etc. Every power in the game has a way to be directly countered in some way. Cage does not. Many believe it should.

Why do you believe it should remain unique and without a way to counter it?

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Just because the counters I listed can be used against all other tactics.. doesn't make them invalid counters.

You said it clearly and accurately yourself, they're generic counters. If you take away generic counters like breaking line of sight and evasion, then things like AS (among other things) also have "no" counters. It's not unique at all, it's just something that takes a little more practice and skill to counter.

Not to mention, there's still the obvious counter that it's not as unique and powerful as claimed. If 8 cager teams could run the field in PvP matches, I'd agree that there's something broken and in need of a fix, but they can't. That fact in and of itself is a check on the "power" of the cage power.

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You still haven't answered my question. Why do you believe that cages should be the only power in the game without a direct counter?

Breaking LOS is a direct counter for AS, the same way it is for taunt. It's reactionary and allows a player with skill to avoid being affected, or to reduce the effects of that power. With cages, once you're caged, you're caged, there is no way to react to minimize the effect. That's what most people are taking exception to and what you've failed to justify so far with your arguments.

Hell, would it even be so bad if a break free could break you out of a cage? It breaks you out of every other status effect in the game (except KB). People would have to start carrying many more of them in matches to avoid perma caging, but then they'd be giving up greens, reds, and ornages, which would seem to balance it all out.

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Like I said, the only argument I've seen in favor of "doing something" to cage that holds any objective substance is the one that cages have no viable counter, and hopefully the above comments address that clearly enough.

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That's the crux of the matter, and no, your above comments *don't* address that clearly enough.

Every "counter" you suggest is a generic counter that can be applied to any situation and any AT/powerset/player/etc. Every power in the game has a way to be directly countered in some way. Cage does not. Many believe it should.

Why do you believe it should remain unique and without a way to counter it?

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And please don't nitpick my word usage, nitpick my arguments instead I'm not trying to be high-minded, just trying to avoid misinterpretation.

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I did nitpick your arguments. I don't agree with them. My point was that comparing perma-caging to perma-killing (target farming) is disingenuous as it is far easier to keep someone alive (and in the match) than it is to keep them from being caged (and forcibly kept from actually playing the game).

Are there counters to being perma-caged? Yes, and you can debate the merits of them all day long. That's why this thread was posted.

I guess my question for you is, why exactly would you be opposed to introducing some way to directly defend against caging? If this were two years ago, we could have this same argument regarding perma-taunting. The devs fixed it because there was no way, at the time, to shake the status effect and it sucked (by most accounts). So why shouldn't that happen now with cage?

I don't want to nerf cages, I want a way to defend against them directly, just like taunt. Why is that such a problem? Sonics won't go away like taunting tanks did, they bring enough to a match even without a perma-cage, to justify their spot on the roster. Tanks don't.

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Im arguing that the cage mechanic is broken and should be fixed. Cage allows someone to choose another player and effectively put them out of the match. With no direct counter, the caged player is left regretting even showing up.

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Excellent summary.

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On the contrary, there are counters, which are nearly identical in nature though require a bit more "extreme" effort and good timing: phasing, high amounts of defense / toHit buffs on the opponents, general evasion and staying out of range, et cetera.

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That's a little disingenuous, dont you think? Comparing perma-cage to perma death is ridiculous.

Is there a way to heal a cage off of someone? No. Then it's easier to keep someone from dieing than from being caged.

Is there a way to buff someone against being caged? No. So again, keeping someone alive is easier than keeping them from being caged. And please don't try the +defense or -to-hit argument please. That's a BS argument and you know it. Any arena PvPer here knows that buffing +Def is damn near useless with the obscene amount of to-hit available. Even Controller cages hit through PBed Fort and Purples without Aim.

Timing? So lets say I'm clairvoyant and I know that I'm about to be caged...what defense do I have? Phase Shift? So I make myself intangible so you don't have to? Awesome.

General evasion, you say? How do you evade the cage? I can evade a damage spike, sure, because it takes several high damage shots to take me down due to ally buffs...on the other hand, there are no ally buffs to help me evade a cage and it only takes 1 shot to tkae me out of the game. You can't evade a single shot from someone smart enough to put you on follow and who can hit through any amount of +Def you might have.

I voted #3, but I don't really care if cage stays the same. I'll live with it. But your arguments, big words and all, are intentionally obtuse, so please stop trying to obfuscate the issue with disingenuous assertions.

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Hmm, so with cage suppression 50% of the time, we go from

7 Sonics for keeping 7 opponents out of the game,

To

4 sonics to keep 4 opponent out of hte game, and then alternating to the other half.

yaaaay suppression!

Maybe it needs to be nerfed more, so it actually does something even less of the time.

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I can't even begin to figure out what in the hell you're talking about.

When have you ever seen 7 Sonics in a match? And even if a team brought 4 sonics and rotated to cage the entire opposing team, nobody would be getting perma-caged, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

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3

Caging, as it is now, is really really dumb. Like it has been mentioned before, imagine showing up to practices for 2 weeks prior to a match. Then setting aside RL for a night to make sure that you make the match. Then in that match, you are perma-caged. It was one of the reasons that I stopped playing this game for ~2 years.

The argument that keeping someone perma-dead does the same thing is ridiculous. There are counters to being killed. There is no direct counter to being perma-caged. There are a few tricks you can do here or there to make things more difficult for the cager, but if he wants you caged the whole match, you can expect it to happen.

Despite me hating cage more then any other power in the game, I think its concept is one that could be really cool in PvP. Lets say you were to drop the duration of cage to 5 seconds. It would still have plenty of use. You could use it on a blaster that just popped aim and BU. You could use it on an empath along with your teams' spike. Cage can still be extremely useful without having the ability to just remove one person from the match.

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crybaby.
bring your own sonic.
that's your fault there.


no one in your team can level a sonic?
you deserve to be perma-caged.
blame your team.

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So, your solution to too much caging...is more caging?

That's [censored] brilliant! Why didn't we think of that?

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Prior to the ladder's incision there was somewhat of a gentleman's rule in place in regards to not bringing more than one sonic to an 8v8, I would love to see that restored.

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QFT. Barring that, I'd vote for #3.

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I have no idea why anyone would make such a coment.

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To hurt my extremely fragile ego. I cried in the shower this morning so the world wouldn't see my tears.

I dunno, like Ed said, I've been in every official we've done. But whatever makes "your friend" feel better. Maybe you see me sitting around during practice since we're rotating 15-16 people (out of 23) on any given night? Nah, couldn't be that.

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Indeed, I quit no more than a week ago, was asked to not leave, I decided to give it another shot and get removed for accusations. It is awesome. In any case, I have been wanting to give up on test, or the game, for some time now, this just makes it easier. Peace out everyone, it was fun. GL to all the SGs out there in what you do, keep PvP alive.

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fixt

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Who's the best on your roster?

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At what?

Putz makes a mean fruit salad and Ed gives the best foot rubs. But nobody beats me for under-arm fart noises.

Our nuts are of the finest quality and possess a unique blend of size, shape, and consistency. A treat to even the most discerning of huggers.

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lolputz

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And Putz is black?

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I dunno, she might be. She's certainly down with the street, as it were.

Better maybe?

lolputz

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The circle of life.

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lacuna matata?

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I hear there's been a revolution in automated feeding systems for gamers No more dying of hunger because you can't leave the keyboard!

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Gamer Trough?

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EDIT: I just noticed that Goldie was actually lying about editing his posts!

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You catch on quick, Star. That's why I like you.

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i guess that would be me since goldie said so, and goldie knows me so well

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I didn't say anything.

So at my brother rite now!

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yeah, except I've talked to you maybe a whole 4 times? are you just pulling stuff out of your [censored] or what?

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Well, let's see.

1. You once sent me a /t (as PK) telling me to stop KSing you in an arena PUG match...and we were on the same team, so how it mattered, I can't figure out.

2. You sent me /t's (again as PK) having a screaming fit when I killed your Dom in SC with my scrapper after all your [censored] talking in /b. I have screenies...it's pretty funny stuff.

3. You had another screaming fit in Vanguard chat (as Queenie) when someone in NDX killed you over and over again in RV...that was also priceless, and what tipped me off that you were the same person. (In case you weren't aware, you whine in the exact same way whether you are "Queenie" or "PK" on any given occasion).

4. I had a good time dropping the SK on PK over and over again in the middle of farming BP masks one night. That was a great conversation starter.

So, yeah, outside of me making fun of you (PK) and insulting your intelligence in random PL sessions, that about sums up the conversations we've had.

Have a good time on whatever server you move to. Please be sure to let us know where you go so I don't accidentally follow you anywhere.

[edit] There goes my little brother again...always being mean to people on my account. I didn't write any of the above...I swearz! Please like me!!!

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Indeed. It states clearly that Jenkins was captured, and that no cure was found for the plague. You get the cure in the last mission in Outbreak, and you rescue Jenkins in the last mission in Breakout.

This is Paragon... without _you_.

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So this is what happens when you keep dropping the missions from Coyote and the Arachnos Pilot to get through the tutorial faster.

I know I haven't rescued Jenkins *or* found the cure for the Outbreak virus since that feature went live.

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so....you guys make a PvP sg and you all turn into complete [censored]? I'm glad I changed servers

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To be fair...nobody ever liked PK. Except maybe Putz, but she's nice to everyone, so it doesn't really count.

I like the "Queenie" persona better, but I'm still convinced you're the same person.

Also...any time I act like a complete [censored], it's not actually me, it's "my brother" logged into my account. Plzforgivehimkthanx.

[edit] Dammit, my brother logged into my account again and said all this...it wasn't me, promise!

Same guy.