Arondell
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:This seems a little unclear. Your saying that of the times you have run into one of the ally only buff sets you regularly had the experience of them not using the primary powers of those sets?(e.g. Force Field deflection/insulation shield)Originally Posted by Sailboat
I don't know what powerset is the most seldom taken on new characters, but the least USED set would be any of the ally-only buff sets like FF, Sonic, Thermal, and Cold. I'm lucky to get buffed at the start of the mission these days; sometimes it's the last time I see that icon all night. People TAKE these sets, but they hardly USE them. -
I seem to recall a list being made at some point showing the percentage played. Not sure where. Its easy to see the least used in general. Sonic, FF and Trick Arrow would be my guesses on that.
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I found team TP to be one of those powers that I never really used that often. Mostly because of it not meshing with others play styles. That being said there were times where I found it useful. Usually in emergency situations when the team was in serious trouble. Also *very* nice in the shadow shard of course.
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Quote:Yes...Non intuitive but its actually been pointed out that a lot of leadership on one team can almost be game breaking. While I've never seen more then four on one team if anyone ever did get all eight people on one team running for instance Assault it would be like everyone on the team getting a minimum of 3 damage SO enhancements. If they were all defenders it would be 4.5 SOs worth of extra damage.Originally Posted by Biospark
However, another thing to consider is whether your SG has alot of folks already using Leadership. Having multiple team members with these powers actually IS a good thing.
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Well if your going to be teaming a lot Leadership is never a bad choice.
Maneuvers : Stacks very well with any other defense buffs. Don't just think of your own buffs here. Think of others. A lot of people have stuff like hover and combat jumping. Maneuvers makes these rather trivial defense buffs not so trivial. Don't forget IO set bonuses either which are quite common these days.
Assault : I believe its about an 18% boost to damage for defenders. Not a bad thing. Much better if you have -Res debuffs to magnify the effect. From a PvP perspective it helps reduce taunt/placate effects. I'm not into PvP myself but if its something you like then it should be considered.
Tactics : About a 12% to-hit buff. I've found this particularly useful against a number of enemies. Annoying Tsoo sorcerers with their hurricane effect and Circle of Thorns ruin mages come to mind. Oh also those avalanche shamans from the banished pantheon. PvP it gives confuse and fear resistance too I believe and a +perception buff.
Vengeance : Nothing to not like here. One of the most powerful team buffs in the game. Can turn a loosing fight into a winning fight.
One last point. Leadership powers stack very well with each other. Having two people on a team running leadership powers can make a very large difference. -
Quote:Yes he is.Originally Posted by Umbral_NA
You're completely missing the point of all of this aren't you?
Yes he did.Quote:Originally Posted by Umbral_NA
Did you completely ignore the post I made giving all of the numbers that you tried to give out,...
My recommendation at this point is to stop trying.
Edit : I'm thinking of a four word sentence. The first word begins with "Don't". Let the clever among you think of the next three words. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Ultimo_
It wouldn't make PFF pointless, since you would still be getting hit. 30% Defense does not equal 90%Defense.If you weren't suggesting hard numbers don't use "ballpark" numbers to counter specific points. The difference between 30% and 40% defense is substantial in this game. Using incorrect numbers to illustrate your point does not help.Quote:Originally Posted by Ultimo_
First of all, I wasn't suggesting hard numbers, I was just shooting for ballpark numbers to illustrate my point. I figured people were smart enough to know what I meant without having to look up the actual numbers. You may notice that I did provide the actual numbers when requested (you'll also notice my ballpark numbers weren't so far off the actual ones).
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Quote:Ok....This is one of the big problems with how you try to make your point. In this case you made an assertion regarding Force Field that anyone with even a small familiarity with the set knew beyond any doubt was wrong. Saying such things regarding the factual aspects of your argument hurts the credibility of the opinion parts of your argument.Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I didn't have Mids running, I just picked numbers out of the air.
What your suggesting Defenders become sounds a great deal like what Corrupters already are. To make these changes your going to have to convince the devs that Defenders as they stand right now are broken. To do that your going to have to do more then convince people that what you want would be better. Your going to have to convince people that what is out there right now isn't, reasonably, playable. So far you haven't convinced me of the "better" aspect of why this should be done.Quote:Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Now, as I say, if that 39% is deemed to be too high, then adjust the powers to compensate. I'm not sure what the numbers would look like for adjusted shields, but it seems to me it shouldn't be terribly big. As I said before, the Defender is paying for higher defense by having less offense. My original idea of dropping the shields by 5% should be sufficient. -
Quote:In other words it would be a complete remodeling of the power. Which is something I thought the devs had a policy against doing unless they felt a power was outright broken. Which I don't think anyone believes is the case with any of the force field powers.Originally Posted by Biospark
I cannot point directly to a thread that verifies this, but from what I understand, changing these powers to hit the Defender personally would not be that difficult.
They would just have to turn the power into a PBAoE like Accelerate Metabolism and be done with it....
<All the other stuff Biospark said>
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Quote:How are you slotting that your only getting 30% defense between the individual shields and Dispersion Field? With good slotting you should be getting right around 40%. Throw in a properly slotted Maneuvers and you should be hitting 45% which is the soft cap for defense. Personal Force Field is 75% not 90% and is generally considered to be overkill for defense unless your facing something that has a big accuracy bonus. (e.g. DE eminators or Rularru Eyeballs) Less health is fairly academic when only around 5% of most incoming damage is actually hitting. So basically you get a character that can floor all enemies chance of hitting you while still fighting back. Basically like having PFF except without the disadvantages. Also without counting in any IO sets yet. So yeah I'm seeing a tank mage in the making.Originally Posted by Ultimo_
It wouldn't make them into tanks, they would have less health, less damage and no taunt effect (unless they use presence).
It wouldn't make PFF pointless, since you would still be getting hit. 30% Defense does not equal 90%Defense.
This would also require a fundamental remaking of how the small shields function since you can't target yourself and getting that much defense for yourself for a paltry 7.8 endurance every 4 minutes would be very broken balance wise. Most defenses on that level are toggles.
Sounds like a lot of work for something I'm fairly sure the devs wouldn't agree with. -
Quote:So you want to turn the force field defender into a defense based tank? Also how would this not make Personal Force Field pointless? It will allow a force field defender to easily soft cap defense.Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Deflection/Insulation Shield - These are the core shield powers in the set, and like similar powers in other sets, the Defender can't use them on himself. To me, this is both unrealistic and horribly limiting, as it renders us the least defended character on any team, and practically defenseless solo. My solution is to make them useful to the solo Defender. This may sound unbalanced, but I don't see it as such. If it's not unbalanced for the Defender to add 40% Defense to a teammate, why is it unbalanced for him to add it to himself (especially when you consider that the teammate ALREADY has personal Defenses)? I'd be willing to allow for a slight reduction in power to accomodate this.
Oh and the whole thing about many of the defender buffs being ally only is a long standing developer policy. It won't change without a total redesign of most of the sets. Most likely making all those nice ally only buffs less powerful so as to not allow tank magery. -
Quote:That is being overly broad in your interpretation. The names of the different ATs identify what that AT does best while trying to stay true to the setting of the game and the abilities that AT brings to the table. "Healer" in this case isn't accurate since several of the sets don't have heals or have very minor heals. We could call them "supporters" but that sounds about as exciting as toast and might be misinterpreted for a type of undergarment.Originally Posted by Lacrymosa
False, it's an inaccurate title by definition. Every AT in the game is by DEFINITION a defender. As with the "scrapper title", everything by said definition "scraps". Scrapper being more accurate but still vague. I understand they don't have specific special abilities like Stalkers do, but alot of things in CoX are very vague.
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Quote:Actually its probably as accurate as it can be. Since several sets in the Defender AT have no heals at all. In several other sets the heal is either a very minor aspect or linked to a debuff. Its really only one set, Empathy, were the heals have a significant place and even with that set the buffs are at least as important if not more important.Originally Posted by Lacrymosa
Don't change decades of MMO terminology just too further boost you're ego. CoH teams will go on an prosper without dealing with semantics. Yes you're defender comes with blasts, and my tank comes with melee, I would love to see the face of the players on my team if I said I would only perform like an actual tank(moving slowly and hitting every 20 secs) due to the "title" given.
"Defender" is a vague word to use, yes it was a huge mistake by the devs. But don't make it seem like certain AT's aren't healer's, thats just obtuse. Every MMO lives by the holy trinity ; Tank, Dps, Healer.
Since every other MMO lives by the Tank, Dps, healer trinity it causes *problems* in CoH/V since the game is designed in such a way that buffs/debuffs are just as powrful....well actually in some cases more powerful then healing. e.g. I was once asked to leave the team when on my Sonic/ right after I was invited. Apparently the team was taking too much damage and needed a healer.
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Quote:I would point out that this too is something of an exaggeration. If your on any team at all and almost any amount of damage is received by your team mates then you will get an endurance discount from vigilance. Here is the table linked to on the CoH wiki page showing the benefits of vigilance. And again the implication that a good defender never allows any damage from occurring to the team. I would say a good defender prevents damage from being serious or from lasting very long. In my experience the only time you would get zero benefit from vigilance is if your not on a team at all.Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The bigger issue, I think, is where it is not just a matter of being a bad Defender, but where you are faced with a choice of sacrificing your Inherent to be a GOOD Defender. Granted you get a great benefit out of even small amounts of damage on large teams, but if you have to be on a large team to get Vigilance, then you are penalized in comparison to a Defender that doesn't have to be on that large a team.
I think a better complaint of vigilance is if your in a situation when all you can do isn't enough to prevent incoming damage from stacking up on your team is an endurance discount really what you need? On many teams I've been on, thanks to buffs such as Speed Boost or Radiant Aura, I had far more endurance then I knew what to do with. What use is an endurance discount under these common cirucumstances? -
Quote:I hear this particular meme quite often as one of the critiques of vigilance and I feel it is not really accurate. It more or less implies that a good defender prevents a team from taking damage. Always and utterly. Which is untrue. Now granted it would seem particular sets might get more benefit out of it. (e.g. Sonic Resonance)Originally Posted by Rodion
The defender inherent is the only inherent that rewards the player for doing a bad job. A good defender will never enjoy its benefits. That's the inherent problem with defenders.
Particularly on large teams the amount of average damage that a team is suffering from can be utterly trivial before noticeable benefits start to accrue from vigilance. On an eight man team if the average % of the teams HP are at 90% then your already getting almost a 50% endurance discount. Granted on small teams its not as strong but neither is it inconsequential.
This is not to say that I think vigilance is a great inherent. On the other hand it does what its advertised as doing and does it pretty well. Most of the complaints I see imply that it doesn't even do what it says it does. -
Quote:This is a semantics issue and a rather narrow definition of mitigation. In truth mitigation is something that can occur before or after whatever is being mitigated. Healing powers are reactive mitigation. +Def and +res buff and -Acc debuff powers are active mitigations. Both reduce the severity of incoming damage. I personally prefer active mitigation.Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
I refuse to call them forms of mitigation, though, as I think of mitigation as things that prevent you to loose health.
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Quote:This seems unlikely.Originally Posted by Ultimo_
...this thread has more than run its course.
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Quote:Quite true. But defense alone wasn't what I was commenting on in regards to the odd behavior of the FF defender mentioned. The individual wasn't turning Dispersion Field on? Then when asked to activate dispersion field he activated force barrier instead at a poor time and then left the team? That is more then a defense issue.Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
80% to all? That stopped making a difference after about 45-ish. Because once you have enough defense to floor the incoming hit rolls, more is wasted. Beyond that, you have to look at other forms of mitigation such as resists and heals for the attacks that do get through. Defense alone isn't the whole picture.
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Quote:That goes beyond stupidity or ignorance and reaches the realm of just plain wierd. Given the vet badge the argument could be made it was even griefing.Originally Posted by Scorpious_EU
At no point does anyone get a deflection or insulation shield, neither does the defender put up dispersion. I know they have them because i always inspect every player when i join a team to know what im getting. After the first couple of deaths i ask if the FF can remember to bubble the tank and squishys if they dont have time to do everyone (which from playing FF, i know they do...) and keep dispersion up since alot of our team was def based it would help greatly - the 2 scrappers were SR and Shield. Nothing...
Tank dies again. So i politely ask again and in response the defender pops up FORCE BUBBLE sending the mobs everywhere while the confused tank tries to catch up to the mobs...
After sending a PM to the defender telling them which bubbles i meant they dropped the 'g2g' in chat and left!
Oh, this person had 45 months of vet also. -
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I agree with a few other people, that a lot of people are just calling defenders healors...
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I've run into this occasionally on my sonic. The part that bugs me is that when I join a team and see someone comment about the team now having a healer it implies a fundamental misunderstanding of what I do. Yes I understand it can also be viewed as an opportunity to "educate" people. After a while though it just gets tedious.
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Remember what I said in the thread earlier folks. Madam_Enigma is a "believer" not a "thinker".
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Does Turbo_ski get a badge for being the first Ad Hominem in the thread?
Wondering if Godwin's Law will have to be invoked at some point. -
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Define too fast.
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Hmmmm.....When the AE expansion was first introduced I didn't pay much attention too it frankly. Then I got a blind invite on one of my master minds at level 12. I figured what the heck try it out and see what its like. Keep in mind I had essentially ignored it until this point so I didn't realize the primary point to AE was for farming. We entered the mission and I proceeded to go from level 12 to 18 in under ten minutes. I'm not sure of a decent definition of "too fast" but a level every 1.5 minutes on average certainly felt that way to me. I actually felt like I had cheated or something.
Since the efforts of the devs to "reform" it I have seen no significant changes to this. The broadcasts in Atlas may be a little less blatant but the direct tells I have, rarely, gotten are very clear about it.(The reason they are rare is because I have a no farming comment in my search entry.)
I tried it out just this evening again after getting an invite. Thought maybe it will work out ok. Fat chance. This time it was a very thinly veiled farm. Basically a remake of the old Drek farm. My search comment is now "No Farming, Power Leveling, or AE". -
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The AE has its faults, but let's try not to blame it for everything.
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While true the blatent farming that AE encourages has certainly not helped the situation. -
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What you fail to account for is that Defenders are intended to excel on teams and do just that, in a manner Corrupters are unable to.
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I don't think this is a failure to take the team based abilities of defenders into account. More like outright ignoring the vary clear design of defenders as a team oriented AT who are comparatively weak soloers by intention. The devs definition of "acceptable" is if an AT can solo standard missions on Heroic difficulty. By this standard defenders are just fine. -
Ok...Maybe I *am* lost. Though I would counter that with the way your throwing out numbers seems almost deliberately confusing. Including switching your example model from rad to sonic in the middle.
My understanding of the various damage levels is this.
Base line damage modifier is 1.0 for a specific damaging power.
Defenders damage modifier for base damage on a specific damage power is .65
Corruptors are .75.
Blasters (I think) are 1.25.
So if the base damage for a power is 10 hp then a defender with that power would do 6.5 a corrupter would do 7.5 and a blaster would do 12.5.
You start by saying.
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with defender/corruptor getting .25/.20 +dmg and .30/.225 -res damage bonuses
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Now what do you precisely mean by this? Do you mean you moved the defender base modifier up to .9 and the corrupter up to .95? That certainly seemed to be what you meant. If it was then thats a *large* jump in damage.
An increase in the defender base damage of 9% would be .65 * 1.09 = .7085 or 70.85%. Is this what you meant?
Also since this is all about *soloing* ability why are you touching the team based powers at all?
Also an increase to 34.5% -Res is an increase of 15% in the power. (.345 / .3 = 1.15) Though again this is a team based power so why would you be modifying it at all if this is about soloing ability?